Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Once again, I know what he said but that doesn't negate the fact that Toriyama's lines are contradictory to each other which I've previously explained. If don't want to know what always means and if you don't believe that Beerus/Freeza is BoG/RoF's antagonist than I can't help you much further.

Toriyama's lines are not contradictory. Since RoF Freeza faced a stronger version of Goku [Blue] than the one Beerus faced [Red]. So technically the suppressed Beerus Goku faced was weaker than Golden Freeza. Every other enemy after that too. Since Goku got more powerful as the series went on. Yet Beerus is "preserved" for much later and will be stronger than all these past enemies when it's his time. To keep the next enemy > last formula.

Imma make this really simple for you, you can't have "exceptions" if it's an "always" situation otherwise it's not "always." If Beerus is an exception then antagonists aren't always stronger than the last ones. Also, Toriyama didn't say "antagonists are stronger than the last one's displayed power."

You can't make it simple cause you lack understanding of what Toriyama said. So now you are projecting what Toriyama means. He didn't say there were exceptions. Beerus was the "strongest" enemy at the time in BoG. Freeza was the "strongest" at the time in RoF. The next enemy is "always" the "strongest." Twisting and nitpicking with semantics isn't going to change that fact.

So TLDR: The next enemy will always be stronger than the last cause Goku and Vegeta will always be stronger than they were from last arc. Meaning any form they take will trounce their previous versions. The level of competition for everyone escalates.

What does that mean if Goku and Vegeta don’t end the previous arc stronger than its antagonist to begin with?

As I said above, the growth can switch (and has?) from “beating stronger and stronger guys” to “beating a similar level of opponent (in different contexts to keep them unique and dangerous) using more and more of their own strength.” Which you have, even, in moving from a team/strategy attack against Jiren, to a two-character fusion against Broly, to individual techniques to beat Moro.

When and if the series ever wants to be clear about Jiren/Broly/Moro, it will be. There’s no reason to expect that it’s being coy when it never has been before.

EDIT — To be clear, I’m not saying “It’s not established, so no one can closely examine the series to make in-fiction arguments as to who’s stronger.” That’s the point of the thread, right? I’m just saying that this particular meta-argument is easily rebuked by the far more simple meta-argument that the series is clear every time it wants to be. And, uniquely in Super, it now has ways to to progress without needing to be.

Hey Cipher! It's good to see you post in discussions. I usually just see you translate text.

Yeah, you bring up good points. However, for example, Goku entering the Broly arc weaker than Jiren is simply due to special circumstance. As Goku has shown that he has the power to defeat Jiren but lacks training to maintain that power. The only reason Goku is weaker than the last is not based on their power but the fact that Goku can not maintain his own power. We know with that power he is better.

[FishermanJohnWest]

We don't know for sure that Vegeta is above Goku's Omen.

All we can say about that is that the two are roughly in the same ballpark which should mean that Vegeta should be more powerful than Jiren at least up to the point where he had another power up in order to face MUI Goku.

Vegeta most likely is not as strong as Jiren at that point seeing as he took blows from MUI Goku where Vegeta couldn't do the same against the weaker Moro.

Jiren never had another power up though, he just countered faster through sheer will and determination, cause MUI was focusing on exploiting openings





And Jiren was burning himself out just countering faster



Vegeta also doesn't have the same problem MUI had in the TOP where it's incomplete

Vegeta should win no problem here

[Helios518]

Toriyama's lines are not contradictory. Since RoF Freeza faced a stronger version of Goku [Blue] than the one Beerus faced [Red]. So technically the suppressed Beerus Goku faced was weaker than Golden Freeza. Every other enemy after that too. Since Goku got more powerful as the series went on. Yet Beerus is "preserved" for much later and will be stronger than all these past enemies when it's his time. To keep the next enemy > last formula.

Imma make this really simple for you, you can't have "exceptions" if it's an "always" situation otherwise it's not "always." If Beerus is an exception then antagonists aren't always stronger than the last ones. Also, Toriyama didn't say "antagonists are stronger than the last one's displayed power."

You can't make it simple cause you lack understanding of what Toriyama said. So now you are projecting what Toriyama means. He didn't say there were exceptions. Beerus was the "strongest" enemy at the time in BoG. Freeza was the "strongest" at the time in RoF. The next enemy is "always" the "strongest." Twisting and nitpicking with semantics isn't going to change that fact.

It's not nitpicking. Freeza is the next enemy after Beerus therefore he's the stronger according to "The next enemy is "always" the "strongest." Sorry but it's not twisting when I'm using "always", "strongest", and "next" for their actual definitions. The only way Beerus can be stronger than the next enemies is if maybe, he was an exception? Or if you somehow think BoG is the newest arc.

[Koitsukai]

We don't know for sure that Vegeta is above Goku's Omen.

All we can say about that is that the two are roughly in the same ballpark which should mean that Vegeta should be more powerful than Jiren at least up to the point where he had another power up in order to face MUI Goku.

Vegeta most likely is not as strong as Jiren at that point seeing as he took blows from MUI Goku where Vegeta couldn't do the same against the weaker Moro.

Jiren never had another power up though, he just countered faster through sheer will and determination, cause MUI was focusing on exploiting openings





And Jiren was burning himself out just countering faster



Vegeta also doesn't have the same problem MUI had in the TOP where it's incomplete

Vegeta should win no problem here

You forgot this panel of Jiren literally powering up vs MUI

[FishermanJohnWest]

We don't know for sure that Vegeta is above Goku's Omen.

All we can say about that is that the two are roughly in the same ballpark which should mean that Vegeta should be more powerful than Jiren at least up to the point where he had another power up in order to face MUI Goku.

Vegeta most likely is not as strong as Jiren at that point seeing as he took blows from MUI Goku where Vegeta couldn't do the same against the weaker Moro.

Vegeta also doesn't have the same problem MUI had in the TOP where it's incomplete

Vegeta should win no problem here

You forgot this panel of Jiren literally powering up vs MUI

Didn't forget about it, it's just pointless to bring up cause him raising his aura doesn't equate to him powering up. What makes it even worse is the fact that they just say he is countering faster from sheer determination, they don't say he got stronger. Regardless, Piccolo and Gohan can still see that fight until the final moments while Omen right now holding back was a different story.

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta also doesn't have the same problem MUI had in the TOP where it's incomplete

Vegeta should win no problem here

You forgot this panel of Jiren literally powering up vs MUI

Didn't forget about it, it's just pointless to bring up cause him raising his aura doesn't equate to him powering up. What makes it even worse is the fact that they just say he is countering faster from sheer determination, they don't say he got stronger. Regardless, Piccolo and Gohan can still see that fight until the final moments while Omen right now holding back was a different story.

That's not a power up? okay...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What makes everything muddy is what the gaps are between all the different forms in the manga, and if there's ever been enough jumps in power to bridge or surpass previous gaps.

For example, is Ultra Instinct Sign now good enough to compete with the silver completion of Ultra Instinct? Is the silver-hair just too much for the incomplete version to match up to?

Is Super Saiyan Blue now significantly stronger? Or is it simply that it's slightly stronger but still in the same range?

Because no absolute comparisons are made, nor any good frames of reference with clear form-based or numerical certainties, we won't know for sure.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Vegeta has been confirmed stronger than UI Omen Goku by 3 different characters at least.

No he hasn't.

In fact, even the actual FEATS themselves show that much. Omen Goku got one shotted by Moro last month. Out of Omen, into Base Form! Vegeta got 3 shots from Moro 73, fell to the ground, and still wasn’t out of Blue Evolution form.

You make some very shoddy points. Did you ever think that maybe Moro just hit Goku harder than he hit Vegeta? That Goku's form is easier to lose because it's obviously harder to control than Vegeta's? In Chapter 61 Moro attacked Vegeta and he dropped to base immediately.

This again isn't evidence of anything.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Jiren never had another power up though, he just countered faster through sheer will and determination, cause MUI was focusing on exploiting openings

From when he fought Vegeta, he powered up once to fight Ultra Instinct Sign Goku powered up again just before Goku went Ultra Instinct and then powered up a third time during the middle of his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku.

All we can say for sure is that Vegeta is likely stronger than Jiren after the first power up and that's it.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Jiren never had another power up though, he just countered faster through sheer will and determination, cause MUI was focusing on exploiting openings

From when he fought Vegeta, he powered up once to fight Ultra Instinct Sign Goku powered up again just before Goku went Ultra Instinct and then powered up a third time during the middle of his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku.

All we can say for sure is that Vegeta is likely stronger than Jiren after the first power up and that's it.

He didn't power up the 3rd time though, cause no one said anything about his power increasing. He just countered faster

Going further the jiren who fought omen Goku is trash now, cause omen from top is much weaker then omen now and ssjbe Vegeta > omen now

Vegeta would easily low dif that jiren with ease

Fp jiren is also likely weaker based on the statements made for omen while holding back

[GodVegetto91]

Vegeta has been confirmed stronger than UI Omen Goku by 3 different characters at least.

No he hasn't.

In fact, even the actual FEATS themselves show that much. Omen Goku got one shotted by Moro last month. Out of Omen, into Base Form! Vegeta got 3 shots from Moro 73, fell to the ground, and still wasn’t out of Blue Evolution form.

You make some very shoddy points. Did you ever think that maybe Moro just hit Goku harder than he hit Vegeta? That Goku's form is easier to lose because it's obviously harder to control than Vegeta's? In Chapter 61 Moro attacked Vegeta and he dropped to base immediately.

This again isn't evidence of anything.

Can you be any more dent??? Seriously? The manga is VERY clear that Omen Goku was surpassed by Spirit Control Blue Evo Vegeta. Why do you always have to be right? Even when you’re objectively wrong. It’s like everything is an opportunity for you to try to be right.

Piccolo stated that Vegeta has managed to one up Goku this time, Goku agrees, saying he will surpass Vegeta again. (Why would he need to surpass him if he’s already stronger than him?!) it doesn’t make any sense! Moro also says that Vegeta will make for his finest meal yet. And UI Omen Goku was on his menu.

Here’s a tip for you: You don’t always have to be right. It’s okay to be wrong sometimes. Your ego is way too big for you to admit it. Wrong is wrong. Period. And in this specific case, you are objectively wrong, as I’ve shown the evidence. Now please stop replying to me, I’m done with people like you.

[Jack Bz]

Vegeta has been confirmed stronger than UI Omen Goku by 3 different characters at least.

No he hasn't.

In fact, even the actual FEATS themselves show that much. Omen Goku got one shotted by Moro last month. Out of Omen, into Base Form! Vegeta got 3 shots from Moro 73, fell to the ground, and still wasn’t out of Blue Evolution form.

You make some very shoddy points. Did you ever think that maybe Moro just hit Goku harder than he hit Vegeta? That Goku's form is easier to lose because it's obviously harder to control than Vegeta's? In Chapter 61 Moro attacked Vegeta and he dropped to base immediately.

This again isn't evidence of anything.

Can you be any more dent??? Seriously? The manga is VERY clear that Omen Goku was surpassed by Spirit Control Blue Evo Vegeta. Why do you always have to be right? Even when you’re objectively wrong. It’s like everything is an opportunity for you to try to be right.

Piccolo stated that Vegeta has managed to one up Goku this time, Goku agrees, saying he will surpass Vegeta again. (Why would he need to surpass him if he’s already stronger than him?!) it doesn’t make any sense! Moro also says that Vegeta will make for his finest meal yet. And UI Omen Goku was on his menu.

Here’s a tip for you: You don’t always have to be right. It’s okay to be wrong sometimes. Your ego is way too big for you to admit it. Wrong is wrong. Period. And in this specific case, you are objectively wrong, as I’ve shown the evidence. Now please stop replying to me, I’m done with people like you.

I've noticed people in this thread seem to love throwing around the word objective, thinking their interpretation of events is infallible. Super is the least obvious and upfront Dragon Ball has ever been in power scaling, imo.

I've come to agree with you that Vegeta probably is stronger than Omen Goku here, yes. But it really isn't as objective as you say it is, as he didn't beat Moro by being stronger, but with a new technique. Moro tanked Vegeta better than he took hits from Goku. But I do think Moro's line is very telling that Vegeta probably is stronger. But I wouldn't say someone is objectively wrong for disagreeing with me.

Also I think you need to lay off a bit in how you are addressing that poster, chill my friend.

[Lostinlogicerror]

You make some very shoddy points. Did you ever think that maybe Moro just hit Goku harder than he hit Vegeta? That Goku's form is easier to lose because it's obviously harder to control than Vegeta's? In Chapter 61 Moro attacked Vegeta and he dropped to base immediately.

This again isn't evidence of anything.

Using this kind of logic, one could argue Vegeta was also holding back because his entire plan hinged on Moro not catching up too quickly to his scheme. Thus he had to pull back his first punches as to deplete him of ki little by little, and not a noticeable amount. He's using Moro's previous tactics against him.

At any rate, it's rather unfair to compare Vegeta's performance on paper to that of Goku's simply for out-of-universe reasons. Author's already setting a stage for the latter and telegraphing all the build-up around Vegeta's character throughout the arc was just a red herring for Goku's MUI. His fight is drawn and choreographed as lackluster as possible next to Goku's or Merus' showings, notice how there's no character of authority (Whis/Merus/Beerus) paying any attention or making off-hand comments on Vegeta's progress during this fight, just to underline that point. It's as if it's meant to look unimpressive and insignificant. Thus you have no choice but to pay attention to what characters on sight are saying. And they're all in agreement about Vegeta surpassing Omen Goku.

[Skar]

Here’s a tip for you: You don’t always have to be right. It’s okay to be wrong sometimes. Your ego is way too big for you to admit it. Wrong is wrong. Period. And in this specific case, you are objectively wrong, as I’ve shown the evidence. Now please stop replying to me, I’m done with people like you.

Is that really called for? We're only discussions opinions here. I asked you multiple times why Moro didn't run into Broly if you're 100% confident that Moro is stronger but you never replied. I respect if that's your opinion but since you're talking about "facts" and objectivity then I assume you'd have a good explanation for it.

[Xeno Goku Black]

He didn't power up the 3rd time though, cause no one said anything about his power increasing. He just countered faster

He obviously powered up, there was no need for them to make redundant comments about it yet again. He powered up, sparks appeared, he started withstanding attacks better and as a result of powering up he was soon after said to be countering faster.

Sparks don't relate to the abilities counter.

Going further the jiren who fought omen Goku is trash now, cause omen from top is much weaker then omen now and ssjbe Vegeta > omen now

It's nothing but assumption to say how much stronger Goku got between then and now in his Omen form and the fights involved showed that Vegeta was weaker than Goku.

[Xeno Goku Black]

[Why do you always have to be right? Even when you’re objectively wrong. It’s like everything is an opportunity for you to try to be right.

Because I am.

Piccolo stated that Vegeta has managed to one up Goku this time, Goku agrees, saying he will surpass Vegeta again.

Vegeta rather obviously did one up Goku and surpassed Goku in a sense but he was not stronger than him.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku and Prime Moro were of pretty much the same level of strength, Goku was able to hurt Moro and push him back and have a good give and take fight with him. Goku lost because he couldn't maintain the form as Moro said when Goku started to slow down which was why Moro beat him as he did.

Vegeta on the other hand was rather obviously much weaker than Moro, unable to even hurt him really with his attacks unlike Goku. Except in Vegeta's case he was robbing Moro of his strength which allowed him to surpass Moro rather quickly.

Goku was stronger than Vegeta it's just that Vegeta had the far better trick to win.

[TheSaiyanGod]

[Why do you always have to be right? Even when you’re objectively wrong. It’s like everything is an opportunity for you to try to be right.

Because I am.

Piccolo stated that Vegeta has managed to one up Goku this time, Goku agrees, saying he will surpass Vegeta again.

Vegeta rather obviously did one up Goku and surpassed Goku in a sense but he was not stronger than him.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku and Prime Moro were of pretty much the same level of strength, Goku was able to hurt Moro and push him back and have a good give and take fight with him. Goku lost because he couldn't maintain the form as Moro said when Goku started to slow down which was why Moro beat him as he did.

Vegeta on the other hand was rather obviously much weaker than Moro, unable to even hurt him really with his attacks unlike Goku. Except in Vegeta's case he was robbing Moro of his strength which allowed him to surpass Moro rather quickly.

Goku was stronger than Vegeta it's just that Vegeta had the far better trick to win.

Is this still discussed after all this time?

I mean, even Goku's line about him having to beat Vegeta again comes to a full circle in that chapter after he gets the UI. It is quite obvious at this point that Vegeta is stronger than Omen, and Goku takes the lead again with the completed UI.

And the user must do damage to the opponent for Spirit Fission to work, this is said by Moro.

You're basically saying that '' Vegeta surpassed Goku in a sense but it's not in the sense that I want '', it's your interpretation e and doesn't reflect what the story said

At this point this is just denial

[Xeno Goku Black]

I mean, even Goku's line about him having to beat Vegeta again comes to a full circle in that chapter after he gets the UI. It is quite obvious at this point that Vegeta is stronger than Omen, and Goku takes the lead again with the completed UI.

It's not really that complicated.

Goku was stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta surpassed him through giving a better performance by using a superior technique.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku was stronger than Hit but Hit still surpassed him through use of a superior technique, the time skip. It's the same thing.

Goku was roughly on the same level as Moro but just couldn't keep it up and Vegeta was a good chunk weaker to the point they panicked at how useless his punch was but robbed Moro of his power to make him weaker than himself.

Vegeta one upped Goku as they said even if he's still weaker.

[Miracles]

I mean, even Goku's line about him having to beat Vegeta again comes to a full circle in that chapter after he gets the UI. It is quite obvious at this point that Vegeta is stronger than Omen, and Goku takes the lead again with the completed UI.

It's not really that complicated.

Goku was stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta surpassed him through giving a better performance by using a superior technique.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku was stronger than Hit but Hit still surpassed him through use of a superior technique, the time skip. It's the same thing.

Goku was roughly on the same level as Moro but just couldn't keep it up and Vegeta was a good chunk weaker to the point they panicked at how useless his punch was but robbed Moro of his power to make him weaker than himself.

Vegeta one upped Goku as they said even if he's still weaker.

Except those techniques, Hit's and Vegeta's was overcome by raw power.
So your reason that Vegeta only surpassed Goku by performance via Spirit fission is not in line with the story.

[Thani]

Moro didn't overcome Forced Spirit Fission. At all. He explicitly made it a point that he could simply dodge it. Because if he got hit by Vegeta's attacks again, his whole absorption of 7-3 would be rendered moot.

In fact, Moro could very well dodge all of Vegeta's attacks in their first bout. He was leagues above Vegeta, blocking and countering him for a good chunk before his power waned enough for him to be overwhelmed. He didn't tho, because he had no reason to. When he acknolwedged that he had reason to dodge (granted, he was even stronger than before), he dodged it.