Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

I reached the point of Goku's first fight with Gohan. The one that really pushed a lot of people onto this "retconned" or "two base" theory more but I suppose at least since then we know the latter isn't true.

Still I was wondering if anyone had any explanations for it.

Gohan himself said he wasn't much of a fighter anymore. I know some people had been saying how he'd grown stronger since training with Piccolo but I think outside of the U6 Saga he didn't train with him since.

Goku though is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks so the fight didn't make too much sense. Gohan did say Goku was holding back but afterward they went Super Saiyan and they were still pretty even.

They fight evenly in their respective Base forms, and Goku admits that he is suppressed. Then they go SSJ, and they continue to fight evenly. The comment referring to being suppressed transformation wise, and going SSJ means he was no longer suppressed makes no sense. Goku literally has 4 transformations above SSJ, and 5 if you count Kaioken. In the context of transformations, he wasn't close to full-power after the "let's do this comment." The only way this means that Goku wasn't severely suppressed would be if you assume that Gohan was also suppressed in Base when they fought, which is not implied at all.

So either Goku was holding back severely while sparring with his son or his power was retconned to beginning of Super levels. I think you could argue both but this was the same Goku who sparred with Buu just fine and then exerted effort as Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin so I think you could say he was just holding back against Gohan.

The bolded is the only reasonable explanation IMO. Goku is casually sparring with his son who he knows barely trains anymore, and even admits during the fight that he was suppressed when his son asked.

[Bullza]

Yeah well a couple episodes later when Goku finds him for the Zen Exhibition, Gohan says that he pretty much retired from fighting. Which again makes me think he'd stopped training with Piccolo after the U6 Saga.

Some people wondered if perhaps Gohan had actually grown stronger through his time training with Piccolo to catch up to Goku's level but everything I've seen over those few episodes definitely don't imply that.

****

Anyway new episode of Super Dragon Heroes for anyone who cares. Hit has been really nerfed in this series. He seems weaker than the Super Saiyans actually.

Cunber defeated Toppo, you'd expect that because he already matched Super Saiyan Blue Vegito with the Kaio-ken.

Looks like Jiren is next, I suppose he should be stronger if Ultra Instinct Goku was.

Hearts I think is maybe around as strong as Jiren. He's definitely stronger than Fused Zamasu. In the manga Hit and Fused Zamasu were evenly matched.

[Zamasu55]

Hit's a joke only in this promotional anime luckily. In the manga he holds his own against Mecha Zamasu.

[PFM18]

Yeah well a couple episodes later when Goku finds him for the Zen Exhibition, Gohan says that he pretty much retired from fighting. Which again makes me think he'd stopped training with Piccolo after the U6 Saga.

What does this have to do with the previous conversation? Like how is this a rebuttal?

[ruler9871]

Hit's a joke only in this promotional anime luckily. In the manga he holds his own against Mecha Zamasu.

That sounds like the complete opposite of how Super handles Hit, since in the Super anime he's a badass while in the Super manga he's a scrub.

[Bullza]

What does this have to do with the previous conversation? Like how is this a rebuttal?

It isn't, you said that Gohan barely trains anymore and I said a couple episodes after that fight with Goku he said he'd retired.

[PFM18]

What does this have to do with the previous conversation? Like how is this a rebuttal?

It isn't, you said that Gohan barely trains anymore and I said a couple episodes after that fight with Goku he said he'd retired.

Alright so it corroborates what I said.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah well a couple episodes later when Goku finds him for the Zen Exhibition, Gohan says that he pretty much retired from fighting. Which again makes me think he'd stopped training with Piccolo after the U6 Saga.

Some people wondered if perhaps Gohan had actually grown stronger through his time training with Piccolo to catch up to Goku's level but everything I've seen over those few episodes definitely don't imply that.

****

Anyway new episode of Super Dragon Heroes for anyone who cares. Hit has been really nerfed in this series. He seems weaker than the Super Saiyans actually.

Cunber defeated Toppo, you'd expect that because he already matched Super Saiyan Blue Vegito with the Kaio-ken.

Looks like Jiren is next, I suppose he should be stronger if Ultra Instinct Goku was.

Hearts I think is maybe around as strong as Jiren. He's definitely stronger than Fused Zamasu. In the manga Hit and Fused Zamasu were evenly matched.

I guess we shouldn't take Heroes seriously then.

Merged Zamasu is stronger than Hit.

[PFM18]

Yeah well a couple episodes later when Goku finds him for the Zen Exhibition, Gohan says that he pretty much retired from fighting. Which again makes me think he'd stopped training with Piccolo after the U6 Saga.

Some people wondered if perhaps Gohan had actually grown stronger through his time training with Piccolo to catch up to Goku's level but everything I've seen over those few episodes definitely don't imply that.

****

Anyway new episode of Super Dragon Heroes for anyone who cares. Hit has been really nerfed in this series. He seems weaker than the Super Saiyans actually.

Cunber defeated Toppo, you'd expect that because he already matched Super Saiyan Blue Vegito with the Kaio-ken.

Looks like Jiren is next, I suppose he should be stronger if Ultra Instinct Goku was.

Hearts I think is maybe around as strong as Jiren. He's definitely stronger than Fused Zamasu. In the manga Hit and Fused Zamasu were evenly matched.

I guess we shouldn't take Heroes seriously then.

Merged Zamasu is stronger than Hit.

So THAT is what convinced you that we shouldn't take Heroes seriously? The entire thing shows you shouldn't take it seriously.

[Bullza]

I don't think it's too bad that Hit can fight evenly with Fused Zamasu.

Remember it's not the Half Corrupted version that fought against Vegito. It's just an enhanced version of the original, the one that was already over powered by Super Saiyan Blue Goku and was one shot by his Kaio-ken.

Hit held his own against Jiren better than Goku did even with the Kaio-ken x20 so I don't think that's problematic at all.

[Hana Midorikawa]

He wasn’t overpowered by Goku per se. He didn’t seem to put full power into his attack and didn’t expect Goku to go all out. Plus his own ki ball was pushed back on him from the Full-Power Kamehameha. Afterwards he seemed shocked from what had occurred which is why Goku was able to land so many hits and then knock him down with kaoiken. He didn’t know Goku could use that. Goku did no damage besides breaking his halo.

It wouldn’t really make sense for SSB Goku to be on his level, when it’s a fusion and one half of him was Goku Black who was a little superior to Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He wasn’t overpowered by Goku per se. He didn’t seem to put full power into his attack and didn’t expect Goku to go all out. Plus his own ki ball was pushed back on him from the Full-Power Kamehameha. Afterwards he seemed shocked from what had occurred which is why Goku was able to land so many hits and then knock him down with kaoiken. He didn’t know Goku could use that. Goku did no damage besides breaking his halo.

It wouldn’t really make sense for SSB Goku to be on his level, when it’s a fusion and one half of him was Goku Black who was a little superior to Goku.

Besides, Goku and Vegeta have gotten a lot stronger since then.

I'd presume that, in SSB now, they're equal to the initial Merged Zamasu and now Punished Zamasu, lining up with how strong SSB overall is supposed to be across mediums.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think it's too bad that Hit can fight evenly with Fused Zamasu.

Remember it's not the Half Corrupted version that fought against Vegito. It's just an enhanced version of the original, the one that was already over powered by Super Saiyan Blue Goku and was one shot by his Kaio-ken.

Hit held his own against Jiren better than Goku did even with the Kaio-ken x20 so I don't think that's problematic at all.

Getting someone off guard is one shotting now? Zamasu was forced to go Corrupted by a Kaioken Blue Goku not regular Blue Goku so Hit shouldn't be able to fight Zamasu evenly without his Time abilities. He's weaker than Blue Goku after all.

[Zamasu55]

I don't think it's too bad that Hit can fight evenly with Fused Zamasu.

Remember it's not the Half Corrupted version that fought against Vegito. It's just an enhanced version of the original, the one that was already over powered by Super Saiyan Blue Goku and was one shot by his Kaio-ken.

Hit held his own against Jiren better than Goku did even with the Kaio-ken x20 so I don't think that's problematic at all.

Getting someone off guard is one shotting now? Zamasu was forced to go Corrupted by a Kaioken Blue Goku not regular Blue Goku so Hit shouldn't be able to fight Zamasu evenly without his Time abilities. He's weaker than Blue Goku after all.

In fact in the manga he didn't fight evenly with Zamasu, he just landed a good solid hit with Time-skip before Hearts steps in.

[Bullza]

Getting someone off guard is one shotting now? Zamasu was forced to go Corrupted by a Kaioken Blue Goku not regular Blue Goku so Hit shouldn't be able to fight Zamasu evenly without his Time abilities. He's weaker than Blue Goku after all.

How was he off guard? He was in the middle of fighting him and knew he was there. He was kicked so hard he went crashing into the ground, had his Halo smashed and then proceeded to summon power from the rift because he believed himself to be weak.

Hit is physically weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but his abilities more than make up for it to the point he gave Jiren more trouble than probably anyone else could have at the time.

[ruler9871]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

[ankokudaishogun]

I guess we shouldn't take Heroes seriously then.

Only the anime and manga.

That said: the scenario is the Core Warriors absorbing energy from people fighting. Which means Zamasu wasn't really serious.
Also, don't underestimate Hit: he's actually absurdly powerful and with an extremely tricky power.
He DID have the best showing against Jiren in the ToP: before the 3rd MUI, moving in the stopped time was the only time Jiren actually showed real effort.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Given how he turned Super Saiyan after reaching an Oozaru Base power equal to SSB, exactly 50 times stronger than that level.

Which means that, while he'd be among the strongest fighters present, he'd still fall short of top dogs like God of Destruction Toppo and Jiren.

[Boulouki]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Given how he turned Super Saiyan after reaching an Oozaru Base power equal to SSB, exactly 50 times stronger than that level.

Which means that, while he'd be among the strongest fighters present, he'd still fall short of top dogs like God of Destruction Toppo and Jiren.

Ssj Broly was equal with a post TOP ssj Gogeta, i agree he would fall short forJiren but he would decimate Toppo, otherwise you are suggesting that a Ssjb Kaioken Goku or Ssjb Evolution Vegeta could have dealt with Ssj Broly on their own, let own work together or even fuse

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Given how he turned Super Saiyan after reaching an Oozaru Base power equal to SSB, exactly 50 times stronger than that level.

Which means that, while he'd be among the strongest fighters present, he'd still fall short of top dogs like God of Destruction Toppo and Jiren.

Ssj Broly was equal with a post TOP ssj Gogeta, i agree he would fall short forJiren but he would decimate Toppo, otherwise you are suggesting that a Ssjb Kaioken Goku or Ssjb Evolution Vegeta could have dealt with Ssj Broly on their own, let own work together or even fuse

I am suggesting that. Without any confirmation of an anime adaptation of the movie or any other official statements saying that the movie is in a separate continuity, we have to assume that the movie is a continuation of the anime's version of the DBS story in addition to the manga.

I also think that Hakaishin Toppo is a lot stronger than people give him credit for. SSBE Vegeta wasn't defeating him normally; he had to gain a temporary boost in strength from not throwing away his morals and pride AND utilize a limit-breaking Final Explosion to merely knock Toppo out. Majin Buu, who was much stronger than SS2 Vegeta way back when, was nearly destroyed by that attack. But Toppo? He only got knocked out. I highly doubt that Goku and Vegeta working together would've beaten Toppo if they fought him with the regular power.

Obviously, Toriyama and the writers didn't bother to include SSBE and Kaioken in the movie, but like highlighted earlier, we can't just assume they don't exist because we don't have evidence to imply that the movie is in an entirely separate vacuum. So, they don't bother using those ascended god-states against SS Broly. Heck, they even tap out way too early for their usual MO when it comes to fighting.