Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

With the Hit example, I just checked once again. Hit powered up his Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds, an improvement on his abilities rather than simply screaming his strength up. Goku merely said that, after doing this, Hit landed a good blow that nearly took him out. Nothing ever points to his actual power going up; no statements, nothing. In fact, all evidence points to his powered up abilities allowing him to hang on in the fight; Goku only manages to keep up by powering himself up overall with the Kaio-ken, much like Jiren has to in his recent fights against Goku and Vegeta despite easily taking them on with greater suppression earlier.

Also, again, no statements or indications regarding Dyspo's strength increasing, EXACTLY LIKE WITH HIT. Only his other abilities, his SPEED, is ever noted. Only his speed is ever taken into account. Only his speed is what's specifically countered in Gohan's strategy. When Dyspo improves his abilities like Hit, he does better despite no noted increases in strength. We have precedence for this, AND NOT for your argument. We have explicit statements from the characters themselves. And this explicit evidence doesn't support your argument. That's not to say that your interpretation isn't possible, just the less likely of the whole debate.

Tell me, from a writing standpoint....... what makes more sense? That the characters commented on Hit and Dyspo improving their abilities which allowed them to pressure our heroes? Or that they increased their strength and that NOBODY comments on this fact and they only focus on their improved abilities and act like it's what allows them to pressure our heroes even though it's really not and just that they increased their strength?

If we go by your interpretation, the impact of improved abilities loses all meaning because it boils down to power. What's the point of playing up the importance of varied abilities if it all just comes down to power? There is none, and the series might as well never bother trying to vary up the stale combat formula of "bigger number = automatic win".

1. Goku outright states that Hit's Strength powered up AS "WELL." Vegeta confirms Hit powered up "in the middle of battle" as well. Everything you said is headcannon.
2. Dyspo is SHOWN shooting ki blasts and fighting with raw strength [at a higher level than he was in base] without "Hyper-speed mode" and yet you say his strength didn't power up overall? Even tho Dyspo had to hold out for time to use his speed again by blocking and punching? You got more headcannon.

Here is more canon for you...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You can raise speed without power or vice versa, too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With the Hit example, I just checked once again. Hit powered up his Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds, an improvement on his abilities rather than simply screaming his strength up. Goku merely said that, after doing this, Hit landed a good blow that nearly took him out. Nothing ever points to his actual power going up; no statements, nothing. In fact, all evidence points to his powered up abilities allowing him to hang on in the fight; Goku only manages to keep up by powering himself up overall with the Kaio-ken, much like Jiren has to in his recent fights against Goku and Vegeta despite easily taking them on with greater suppression earlier.

Also, again, no statements or indications regarding Dyspo's strength increasing, EXACTLY LIKE WITH HIT. Only his other abilities, his SPEED, is ever noted. Only his speed is ever taken into account. Only his speed is what's specifically countered in Gohan's strategy. When Dyspo improves his abilities like Hit, he does better despite no noted increases in strength. We have precedence for this, AND NOT for your argument. We have explicit statements from the characters themselves. And this explicit evidence doesn't support your argument. That's not to say that your interpretation isn't possible, just the less likely of the whole debate.

Tell me, from a writing standpoint....... what makes more sense? That the characters commented on Hit and Dyspo improving their abilities which allowed them to pressure our heroes? Or that they increased their strength and that NOBODY comments on this fact and they only focus on their improved abilities and act like it's what allows them to pressure our heroes even though it's really not and just that they increased their strength?

If we go by your interpretation, the impact of improved abilities loses all meaning because it boils down to power. What's the point of playing up the importance of varied abilities if it all just comes down to power? There is none, and the series might as well never bother trying to vary up the stale combat formula of "bigger number = automatic win".

1. Goku outright states that Hit's Strength powered up AS "WELL." Vegeta confirms Hit powered up i nthe middle of battle as well. Everything you said is headcannon.
2. Dyspo is SHOWN shooting ki blasts and fighting with raw strength without "Hyper-speed mode and yet you say he didn't power up overall?
Even tho Dyspo had to hold out to use his speed again by blocking and punching? You got more headcannon.

Here is more canon for you...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

You're conflating "powering up" as always meaning that battle power rises, instead of the more proper "I'm gonna unleash my power" in a generalized non-specific context. Notice that, in your exact quote, Vegeta specifically stated that his "battle power", which is the unique and specific moniker for general "power levels" in the original Japanese context. Notice, also, that nothing of the sort was said with regards to Hit and Dyspo. They were merely stated to have powered up, but not actually raised their battle power. In fact, additional quotes from the current show contradict your interpretation by either not noting an increase in battle power (Dyspo) or specifically saying that there wasn't an increase in battle power (Hit); nowhere in the official subs on Crunchyroll was Hit's battle power noted to have increased, and in fact the OPPOSITE was said. So you're lying about that quote from the episode when Hit fights Goku in the previous tournament.

As well, we see that Dyspo doesn't need to use Super Maximum Light Speed Mode to still have incredible speed, as seen when he's fighting Hit, SSG Goku, and Final Form and True Golden Freeza. He still possesses incredible speed without specifically powering it up with Super Maximum Light Speed Mode.

Try again, bub. If we're pushing headcanon, than by definition, you're pushing tinfoil hat theories because of a lack of objective evidence from the episodes you're arguing about. Face it, we could go on forever, and you'd STILL be in no better position. Why are you so dead-set on proving that characters aren't using their improved skills to do better in battle anyways? Is it some flawed sense of consistency that you expect show writers to strictly adhere to? Does this approach somehow insult your own personal belief system? These aren't only questions for you, either. They apply to many other dedicated power-scalers whom have taken up your particular position, as well.

[Miracles]

With the Hit example, I just checked once again. Hit powered up his Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds, an improvement on his abilities rather than simply screaming his strength up. Goku merely said that, after doing this, Hit landed a good blow that nearly took him out. Nothing ever points to his actual power going up; no statements, nothing. In fact, all evidence points to his powered up abilities allowing him to hang on in the fight; Goku only manages to keep up by powering himself up overall with the Kaio-ken, much like Jiren has to in his recent fights against Goku and Vegeta despite easily taking them on with greater suppression earlier.

Also, again, no statements or indications regarding Dyspo's strength increasing, EXACTLY LIKE WITH HIT. Only his other abilities, his SPEED, is ever noted. Only his speed is ever taken into account. Only his speed is what's specifically countered in Gohan's strategy. When Dyspo improves his abilities like Hit, he does better despite no noted increases in strength. We have precedence for this, AND NOT for your argument. We have explicit statements from the characters themselves. And this explicit evidence doesn't support your argument. That's not to say that your interpretation isn't possible, just the less likely of the whole debate.

Tell me, from a writing standpoint....... what makes more sense? That the characters commented on Hit and Dyspo improving their abilities which allowed them to pressure our heroes? Or that they increased their strength and that NOBODY comments on this fact and they only focus on their improved abilities and act like it's what allows them to pressure our heroes even though it's really not and just that they increased their strength?

If we go by your interpretation, the impact of improved abilities loses all meaning because it boils down to power. What's the point of playing up the importance of varied abilities if it all just comes down to power? There is none, and the series might as well never bother trying to vary up the stale combat formula of "bigger number = automatic win".

1. Goku outright states that Hit's Strength powered up AS "WELL." Vegeta confirms Hit powered up i nthe middle of battle as well. Everything you said is headcannon.
2. Dyspo is SHOWN shooting ki blasts and fighting with raw strength without "Hyper-speed mode and yet you say he didn't power up overall?
Even tho Dyspo had to hold out to use his speed again by blocking and punching? You got more headcannon.

Here is more canon for you...

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

You're conflating "powering up" as always meaning that battle power rises, instead of the more proper "I'm gonna unleash my power" in a generalized non-specific context. Notice that, in your exact quote, Vegeta specifically stated that his "battle power", which is the unique and specific moniker for general "power levels" in the original Japanese context. Notice, also, that nothing of the sort was said with regards to Hit and Dyspo. They were merely stated to have powered up, but not actually raised their battle power. In fact, additional quotes from the current show contradict your interpretation by either not noting an increase in battle power (Dyspo) or specifically saying that there wasn't an increase in battle power (Hit); nowhere in the official subs on Crunchyroll was Hit's battle power noted to have increased, and in fact the OPPOSITE was said. So you're lying about that quote from the episode when Hit fights Goku in the previous tournament.

As well, we see that Dyspo doesn't need to use Super Maximum Light Speed Mode to still have incredible speed, as seen when he's fighting Hit, SSG Goku, and Final Form and True Golden Freeza. He still possesses incredible speed without specifically powering it up with Super Maximum Light Speed Mode.

Try again, bub. If we're pushing headcanon, than by definition, you're pushing tinfoil hat theories because of a lack of objective evidence from the episodes you're arguing about. Face it, we could go on forever, and you'd STILL be in no better position. Why are you so dead-set on proving that characters aren't using their improved skills to do better in battle anyways? Is it some flawed sense of consistency that you expect show writers to strictly adhere to? Does this approach somehow insult your own personal belief system? These aren't only questions for you, either. They apply to many other dedicated power-scalers whom have taken up your particular position, as well.

You just ignored blatantly direct statements that "battle power/power up/ki/energy" rising increases overall combat ability as well as all the examples and statements given for your wishful interpretation that has no support whatsoever in the entire franchise. Please be my guest and continue with your headcannon. Dragonball will always be about battle power =overall strength...Even freeza told Dyspo "that your power will never match mine!" That's why Cell clowned Trunks for using Super Saiyan "grades" cause of it's unbalance in power and you think somehow Dyspo is unbalanced? That he is pure speed?In a universe that has already established that disproportion in overall power is a no-no? You're way out of bounds and not even in line with Toriyama.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You just ignored blatantly direct statements that "battle power/power up/ki/energy" rising increases overall combat ability as well as all the examples and statements given for your wishful interpretation that has no support whatsoever in the entire franchise. Please be my guest and continue with your headcannon. Dragonball will always be about battle power =overall strength...Even freeza told Dyspo "that your power will never match mine!" That's wh yCell clowned Trunks for using Super Saiyan grades cause of it's unbalance and you think somehow Dyspo is unbalanced? You outright ignore the story.

Go on, keep thinking this is marvel/dc or naruto.

Okay then, let's simplify further. Occam's Razor, the philosophy that the hypothesis with the least assumptions is the one that should be selected. What does Occam's Razor tell us about the situations we argued about? Well, I don't need to point it out, the episodes spelled it out as simply as possible.

With Hit, he didn't raise his battle power, but instead powered up and improved himself, increasing his Time-Skip effectiveness.

With Dyspo, he raised his speed even further and pressured even Freeza.

Occam's Razor would have us not make any further assumptions. Hit improved Time-Skip, and Dyspo increased his speed. Narratively speaking, this is what was presented to us, and we as viewers are expected to take it as is.

Tell me...... with these "ingrained and immutable rules" that you prop up so frequently, how come Goku was taken down by a simple laser for the crime of "being off-guard"? I mean, plenty of other characters have been taken off-guard and turned out fine in the entire series, right? The very same arc you pulled a quote from, Gohan lands a direct blow on Dodoria whilst he was off-guard to save Dende, and he's certainly much stronger than some dinky laser. And yet, he didn't tear off Dodoria's head, and the big brute shook it off. Is THAT an example of the series "outright ignoring the story"?

Occam's Razor, my misguided friend. Occam's Razor. It's a powerful tool. We don't get told or blatantly visually telegraphed that battle powers are increased, so the safest assumption is not to assume they have increased, for these particular exa,ples.

Go on, keep thinking that Dragon Ball is some perfectly consistent series that never contradicts itself or changes the rules, with its Senzu Beans that clearly never used to only make you feel full to becoming magical healing plot devices, or Goku's Saiyan heritage being why he's always ahead of his Human companions whom have certainly never gained better gains from training under Kami than he did. CLEARLY, these were immutable and unchanging parts of the series that are ALWAYS consistent within themselves, aren't they?

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, he said “As expected.. His attack after powering up got me real good”. This goes back to what we have been discussing. Powering up in this context doesn’t mean increasing his powerlevel, that’s what Vegeta was wondering and Whis denied. By increasing the length of time-skip, Hit has more time to land a clean heavy blow and by increasing it further he can do this more than once. He pretty much admitted he can’t power up, but he could still advance in this aspect.

Wow, None of this is canon at all. Not even the dialogue you posted. All original subs clearly has Goku state that Hit powered up and so did his strength. Hit only confirms that he can't power up BY "TRANSFORMING" like the Saiyains. But indeed his power up just simply improves his abilities. Even Vegeta later confirmed Hit powered up by stating "Only Saiyans have that trait, to power up in the middle of battle" and it made him mad that someone like Hit can do it as well. To say that Dragonball power ups don't increase overall power is a complete fan REWRITE of the entire series battle mechanics. This isn't DC, Marvel, Naruto or Pokemon.

Just for clarification, the exchange from Goku that I wrote is exactly what is written in the Crunchyroll English subs, which is a legal streaming service that I pay from my pockets since 2013. My source here. If there is another official service or even a different perspective from people that are actually Japanese speakers, I will gladly support them as well.

Also, the relevant quotes for context and reference:
Vegeta: "So that yelling was a trigger to power up after all?"
Whis: "No."
Vados: "[...] He decided to copy Goku san's method."
Hit: "I can't power up by transforming like you Saiyans. To become stronger there was only one way left for me."
Kuririn: "And that one way was.."
Piccolo: "To advance himself!"
Vegeta: "What?"
Piccolo: "Hit used this short time to simply advance himself!"
Hit: "Advancing myself. [...] Indeed I have now succeeded.. .. in lengthening my Time Skip to 0.2 seconds."
Kuririn: "He lengthened his Time Skip?!"
Goku: "As expected. His attack after powering up got me real good. The most I can take is another few hits... But a few hits are all I need. The world beyond 0.2 seconds... is not somewhere I can't reach. (misreading the situation)"
Vegeta: "Powering up during battle is the Saiyans' specialty. There is no one who could outdo us in our speed of advancing ourselves!".

So, first Hit powered up, then he didn't, but wait he did.. hmm what exactly he did? In a nutshell, it's a power up, yet not a power up. It seems very clear to me that Time Skip's increased length is the reason of his advance.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I do not think you understand my point about the fight against Jiren.

First, it is a fact that Jiren was using less power than in the first round against Goku. But this only happens at the moment that Vegeta alone faces Jiren (after to deviate of his blows for the first time). It's just THAT MOMENT that Vegeta notices it.
When Goku and Vegeta face Jiren together at the beginning of EP 122, (before Vegeta hits Jiren), there is no quote that Jiren was using less power than before.
This just happened when Vegeta faced Jiren alone.

So it does not matter if in the first round Jiren defeated Goku SSB KK x20 easily, this did not mean he will defeat Goku SSB on EP 122 with the same speed. After all, on EP 109, even with all that power, Jiren did not even defeat Goku SSB so quickly, they still traded punches.
He only beat him quickly after Goku used SSB KK.

This does not prove that during the start of the second round, Jiren was using less power than before. Vegeta only noticed this afterwards.

After Hitto hits a punch in the Goku, Vegeta says Hitto's '' scream '' really was meant to boost his power, and Whis says no.
When Goku says that the powered-up hitto punch worked, it was just a way of referring to Hitto after '' growing up ''
And no, Dyspo did not deactivate the aura because of Gohan.

In fact, Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, and with a punch pushed him (but Dyspo did not even touch the lasers of Freeza, he deactivated on his own). If this increased his power, he would have his aura active throughout the fight.

But he only tried to activate when Freeza ran out of energy, trying to escape

Dyspo's aura disappears AFTER Gohan hits him. And before that, Dyspo with the aura, overpowered Gohan into the bars. Proving his strength increased as well in a battle of raw might. Why do you ignore this fact?
Hit was blatantly stated to have powered up by Goku. Even confirmed by Vegeta when he stated of Hit "to power up in the middle of a battle is a Saiyan trait."
Also, Vegeta's comment was not for that moment it was for the whole time they fought cause Jiren fought a fatigued Goku alone FIRST before he fought Vegeta. Jiren didn't put that tired Goku down easily. Proving that Jiren was holding back the whole time against them.

No, Gohan was pressing Dyspo even with the aura and Shin said that in a direct battle, Gohan would not lose (and again, Dyspo was already with the aura).

In fact, Dyspo with aura had also touched the bars of Freeza and she did not disappear.
Dyspo did not deactivate the aura the moment Gohan attacked, he was pushed back and then his aura disappeared. Nothing indicates that Gohan was responsible for this, after all before Dyspo had received worse attacks and his aura did not disappear.
He also activated the aura again after the Freeza bars disappeared

Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, so this shows that he had not increased his power

Nothing indicates that Vegeta's comment was referring to the whole struggle.
If that was the case, Vegeta would have told this to Jiren before facing him alone.
He just said it at that moment, and Jiren quickly countered and dominated Vegeta, implying that he began to use more power

[ChiefWamsutta]

My List for the Top 10 Fighters in the Tournament of Power

1 ) Jiren
2 ) Ultra Instinct Goku
3 ) God of Destruction Toppo
4 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta
5 ) Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
6 ) Anilaza
7 ) Golden Frieza
8 ) Android 17
9 ) Dyspo
10 ) Ultimate Gohan


My List for Comparing All Saiyan Fighters

No Fusions Included
(Ultra Blue is Vegeta's new form; SSLegend is Kale's green-haired form with pupils; SSProper is Kale's muddy-yellow-haired form with pupils)

1 ) Ultra Instinct Goku
2 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta
3 ) Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 Goku
4 ) Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
5 ) Super Saiyan Blue Goku
6 ) Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
7 ) Ultimate Gohan
8 ) Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks
9 ) Base Goku Black
10 ) Super Saiyan God Goku
11 ) Super Saiyan Legend Kale
12 ) Super Saiyan 3 Goku
13 ) Super Saiyan Berserker Kale
14 ) Super Saiyan Proper Kale
15 ) Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
16 ) Super Saiyan 2 Goku
17 ) Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
18 ) Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
19 ) Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
20 ) Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
21 ) Super Saiyan Vegeta
22 ) Super Saiyan Goku
23 ) Super Saiyan Gohan
24 ) Super Saiyan Future Trunks
25 ) Super Saiyan Caulifla
26 ) Super Saiyan Cabba
27 ) Super Saiyan Trunks
28 ) Super Saiyan Goten
29 ) Base Vegeta
30 ) Base Goku
31 ) Base Gohan
32 ) Base Future Trunks
33 ) Base Caulifla
34 ) Base Cabba
35 ) Base Kale
36 ) Base Trunks
37 ) Base Goten
38 ) Base Pan
39 ) Base Bra

[Green]

1 ) Jiren
2 ) Goku Ultra Istinct
3 ) Kefla Super Saiyan 2 Berserker
4 ) Toppo Hakaishin
5 ) Vegeta Super Saiyan Bluer
6 ) Aniraza
7 ) Hit
8 ) Dyspo
9 ) Freezer
10 ) Android 17

[Kenneth La Torre]

Hakaishin or above tier
-jiren
-UI goku
-G.o.D toppo/Vegeta

God tier
-Kefla
-hit (due to hax)
-aniraza (way higher than hit only in power)
-Dyspo/golden freeza (cant decide who is higher)
-android 17/Gohan (Cant decide who is higher)

Irrelavent Tier
-everyone else

[SayianBeyondGod]

My List for the Top 10 Fighters in the Tournament of Power

1 ) Jiren
2 ) Ultra Instinct Goku
3 ) God of Destruction Toppo
4 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta
5 ) Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
6 ) Anilaza
7 ) Golden Frieza
8 ) Android 17
9 ) Dyspo
10 ) Ultimate Gohan

Damn, no Hit?

[SayianBeyondGod]

My List of Top 10 strongest fighters of the Tournament of Power Currently

1 ) Jiren (dominated most of the strongest fighters and rivals/surpasses some of the God of Destructions)
2 ) God of Destruction Toppo (power is in the God of Destruction realm which cause Beerus to be worried, not to mention hakia blast affect the entire World of Void)
3 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta (pushes a more powered up Jiren with a casual final flash or ki blast where as it took the spirit bomb or more stronger full power final flash to do so)
4 ) Ultra Instinct Goku (shook the world of void, while powered by the entire U7 spirit bomb which his power should rival and was able to put up a fight against Jiren)
5 ) Hit (was able to catch a Jiren off guard with a punch which had Jiren struggled to fight against when in the time cage, so mostly due to hax here)
6 ) Anilaza (was overpowering 5 SSB tier fighters while being close to destroying the entire stage)
7 ) SSJ2 Kefla (was able to surpass fatigue SSBKK(>x10) Goku, yet full power SSB would be too much for her SSJ but threaten a fatigue UI Goku with a bloodlusted attack)
8 ) Dyspo Light Speed mode (overwhelmed Golden Frezia whom rivals SSB Goku)
9 ) Freeza (rival SSB Goku when stalemating him a fight)
10 ) Android 17 ( pushed Goku to use SSB and was able to hold his own against the likes of Toppo)

I also want to bring up another topic here, whom has more potenial U6 Saiyans or U7 hybrid Saiyans?

[majinwarman]

My List for the Top 10 Fighters in the Tournament of Power

1 ) Jiren
2 ) Ultra Instinct Goku
3 ) God of Destruction Toppo
4 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta
5 ) Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
6 ) Anilaza
7 ) Golden Frieza
8 ) Android 17
9 ) Dyspo
10 ) Ultimate Gohan


My List for Comparing All Saiyan Fighters

No Fusions Included
(Ultra Blue is Vegeta's new form; SSLegend is Kale's green-haired form with pupils; SSProper is Kale's muddy-yellow-haired form with pupils)

1 ) Ultra Instinct Goku
2 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta
3 ) Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 Goku
4 ) Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
5 ) Super Saiyan Blue Goku
6 ) Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
7 ) Ultimate Gohan
8 ) Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks
9 ) Base Goku Black
10 ) Super Saiyan God Goku
11 ) Super Saiyan Legend Kale
12 ) Super Saiyan 3 Goku
13 ) Super Saiyan Berserker Kale
14 ) Super Saiyan Proper Kale
15 ) Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
16 ) Super Saiyan 2 Goku
17 ) Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
18 ) Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
19 ) Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
20 ) Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
21 ) Super Saiyan Vegeta
22 ) Super Saiyan Goku
23 ) Super Saiyan Gohan
24 ) Super Saiyan Future Trunks
25 ) Super Saiyan Caulifla
26 ) Super Saiyan Cabba
27 ) Super Saiyan Trunks
28 ) Super Saiyan Goten
29 ) Base Vegeta
30 ) Base Goku
31 ) Base Gohan
32 ) Base Future Trunks
33 ) Base Caulifla
34 ) Base Cabba
35 ) Base Kale
36 ) Base Trunks
37 ) Base Goten
38 ) Base Pan
39 ) Base Bra

That is a great list for both the Sayians and the fighters in the TOP.

[ZombieVito]

If Base Kefla can blitz Super Saiyan God Goku then does she possess speed comparable to Dyspo?

Would that mean in terms of power level that Base Kefla would also be above Hit?

But that was a tired Goku.

Anyway I made a list last night, it's not final and can change very easily.

Feedback is very welcomed.

Infinite Tier

Zeno/Future Zeno
Infinite Zamasu

Beyond Angel Tier

Grand Priest

Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Angels

God of Destruction Tier

Jiren
Zeno's Attendants
Quitela
Beerus
Belmod
Vegetto Blue
SSI Future Trunks [Genkidama Sword]
Merged Zamasu [Corrupted]
Champa
God of Destructions
Toppo [God of Destruction]

Beyond Blue Tier

UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla
SS Kefla
SSB2 Vegeta
SSB Goku [Kaioken x20]
SSB Goku [Kaioken x10]
Merged Zamasu [Halo]
Merged Zamasu

Blue Tier

Anilaza
SSB Goku [Kaioken]
Koichiarator
SSB Vegeta/Toppo
SSB Goku/ Freeza [Golden form]/SSR Goku Black
SSI Future Trunks
Gohan [Ultimate form]
Hit
17
Pirina
Saonel

God Tier

SSG Goku/Goku Black
Vegetto
Kefla
Kale [Mastered SS Bersek]


SS3 Tier

SS3 Goku
Kale [Controlled SS Bersek]
Obuni
Kale [SS Bersek]

SS2 Tier

Piccolo
SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Goku
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Gohan
SS2 Cabba
Kahseral
Zamasu
Rubalt

SS Tier

Maji Kayo
Monna
Kunshi
SS Vegeta
SS Goku
SS Future Trunks
SS Caulifla
SS Gohan
SS Cabba
Damon
Katopesla [Ultimate mode]
Frost
Auta Magetta
Gamisaras

Base Tier

Kettol
Narirama
Vegeta
Goku/Freeza
Caulifla
Future Trunks
Dyspo
Good Boo [Slim form]
Bergamo
Bollarator
Gohan
Koitsukai
Cabba
Panchia
SS3 Gotenks
18
Ribrianne
Viara
Su Roas
Cocotte
Sanka KU
Tupper
Zoiray
Jimeze
Good Boo
Napapa
Basil
Nink
Paparoni
Zirloin
Lavender
Zarbuto
Methiop
Rabanra
Chappil
Kale
Hyssop
Murichim
Hop
Katopesla
Nigrisshi
Vuon
Botamo
Ginyu [Tagoma]
Tagoma

Below Base Tier

Ganos
Hermila
Majora
Dercori
Shosa
Comfrey
Kuririn
Roshi [Max Power]
The Preecho
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Jirasen
Caway
Lilibeu
Murisam
Jium
Shisami
Oregano
Prum
Doctor Rotta
Jilcol
Roselle
Sorrel
Shantza

[Bullza]

But that was a tired Goku.

Tired or not, Kefla got behind him and he couldn't even react to her movements. I wouldn't have thought that being tired would make him react slower to things moving.

[SayianBeyondGod]

But that was a tired Goku.

Tired or not, Kefla got behind him and he couldn't even react to her movements. I wouldn't have thought that being tired would make him react slower to things moving.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have all of his ki retained. I'm also sure that ki correlates to speed/reaction, hence why when a character has more ki when powering up he/she moves faster hence better reaction to keep up with it. Wasn't Golden Frieza failing to keep up with Vegeta or Goku's moves later on when going fatigue hence a decrease in reaction time.

[TheDipDap1234]

If Base Kefla can blitz Super Saiyan God Goku then does she possess speed comparable to Dyspo?

Would that mean in terms of power level that Base Kefla would also be above Hit?

But that was a tired Goku.

Anyway I made a list last night, it's not final and can change very easily.

Feedback is very welcomed.

Infinite Tier

Zeno/Future Zeno
Infinite Zamasu

Beyond Angel Tier

Grand Priest

Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Angels

God of Destruction Tier

Jiren
Zeno's Attendants
Quitela
Beerus
Belmod
Vegetto Blue
SSI Future Trunks [Genkidama Sword]
Merged Zamasu [Corrupted]
Champa
God of Destructions
Toppo [God of Destruction]

Beyond Blue Tier

UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla
SS Kefla
SSB2 Vegeta
SSB Goku [Kaioken x20]
SSB Goku [Kaioken x10]
Merged Zamasu [Halo]
Merged Zamasu

Blue Tier

Anilaza
SSB Goku [Kaioken]
Koichiarator
SSB Vegeta/Toppo
SSB Goku/ Freeza [Golden form]/SSR Goku Black
SSI Future Trunks
Gohan [Ultimate form]
Hit
17
Pirina
Saonel

God Tier

SSG Goku/Goku Black
Vegetto
Kefla
Kale [Mastered SS Bersek]


SS3 Tier

SS3 Goku
Kale [Controlled SS Bersek]
Obuni
Kale [SS Bersek]

SS2 Tier

Piccolo
SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Goku
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Gohan
SS2 Cabba
Kahseral
Zamasu
Rubalt

SS Tier

Maji Kayo
Monna
Kunshi
SS Vegeta
SS Goku
SS Future Trunks
SS Caulifla
SS Gohan
SS Cabba
Damon
Katopesla [Ultimate mode]
Frost
Auta Magetta
Gamisaras

Base Tier

Kettol
Narirama
Vegeta
Goku/Freeza
Caulifla
Future Trunks
Dyspo
Good Boo [Slim form]
Bergamo
Bollarator
Gohan
Koitsukai
Cabba
Panchia
SS3 Gotenks
18
Ribrianne
Viara
Su Roas
Cocotte
Sanka KU
Tupper
Zoiray
Jimeze
Good Boo
Napapa
Basil
Nink
Paparoni
Zirloin
Lavender
Zarbuto
Methiop
Rabanra
Chappil
Kale
Hyssop
Murichim
Hop
Katopesla
Nigrisshi
Vuon
Botamo
Ginyu [Tagoma]
Tagoma

Below Base Tier

Ganos
Hermila
Majora
Dercori
Shosa
Comfrey
Kuririn
Roshi [Max Power]
The Preecho
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Jirasen
Caway
Lilibeu
Murisam
Jium
Shisami
Oregano
Prum
Doctor Rotta
Jilcol
Roselle
Sorrel
Shantza

How is Piccolo SSJ2 tier?

Why is Kahseral so high on the list? 17 was more serious against Kakunsa and especially against Rozie than he was against Kahseral. Gamisaras is also way too high. He only managed to land a hit on people because of his special ability. Piccolo even said that Gamisaras without his special ability is not a note-worthy fighter. Damon was also only good because of his ability. They should not be that high on the list in my opinion.

18 and Ribrianne are also way too low.

[wolflonnie]

If Base Kefla can blitz Super Saiyan God Goku then does she possess speed comparable to Dyspo?

Would that mean in terms of power level that Base Kefla would also be above Hit?

But that was a tired Goku.

Anyway I made a list last night, it's not final and can change very easily.

Feedback is very welcomed.

Infinite Tier

Zeno/Future Zeno
Infinite Zamasu

Beyond Angel Tier

Grand Priest

Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Angels

God of Destruction Tier

Jiren
Zeno's Attendants -> Why so low? Any particular reason?
Quitela
Beerus
Belmod
Vegetto Blue
SSI Future Trunks [Genkidama Sword] -> I would place him a bit lower. Then again, I headcanon that Vegetto weakened Zamasu quite a bit.
Merged Zamasu [Corrupted]
Champa
God of Destructions
Toppo [God of Destruction]

Beyond Blue Tier

UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla -> Would place her below KKx20 Goku - she was competing with a fatigued Goku
SS Kefla -> Would place her around KKx10 Goku, or below
SSB2 Vegeta
SSB Goku [Kaioken x20]
SSB Goku [Kaioken x10]
Merged Zamasu [Halo]
Merged Zamasu

Blue Tier

Anilaza -> Would place him higher, around or above SSB2 Vegeta
SSB Goku [Kaioken]
Koichiarator
SSB Vegeta/Toppo
SSB Goku/ Freeza [Golden form]/SSR Goku Black
SSI Future Trunks
Gohan [Ultimate form]
Hit -> Too low. While his attack potency isn't that exceptional, with his skills he should be around SSB Goku levels
17
Pirina
Saonel

God Tier

SSG Goku/Goku Black
Vegetto
Kefla
Kale [Mastered SS Bersek]


SS3 Tier

SS3 Goku
Kale [Controlled SS Bersek]
Obuni
Kale [SS Bersek]

SS2 Tier

Piccolo
SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Goku
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Gohan
SS2 Cabba
Kahseral
Zamasu
Rubalt

SS Tier

Maji Kayo -> Should be much higher. Took SSB for Goku to break out of his grasp, and he threatened Dyspo
Monna
Kunshi
SS Vegeta
SS Goku
SS Future Trunks
SS Caulifla
SS Gohan
SS Cabba
Damon
Katopesla [Ultimate mode]
Frost
Auta Magetta
Gamisaras

Base Tier

Kettol
Narirama
Vegeta
Goku/Freeza
Caulifla
Future Trunks
Dyspo
Good Boo [Slim form]
Bergamo
Bollarator
Gohan
Koitsukai
Cabba
Panchia
SS3 Gotenks
18
Ribrianne
Viara
Su Roas
Cocotte
Sanka KU
Tupper
Zoiray
Jimeze
Good Boo
Napapa
Basil
Nink
Paparoni
Zirloin
Lavender
Zarbuto
Methiop
Rabanra
Chappil
Kale
Hyssop
Murichim
Hop
Katopesla
Nigrisshi
Vuon
Botamo
Ginyu [Tagoma]
Tagoma

Below Base Tier

Ganos
Hermila
Majora
Dercori
Shosa
Comfrey
Kuririn
Roshi [Max Power]
The Preecho
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Jirasen
Caway
Lilibeu
Murisam
Jium
Shisami
Oregano
Prum
Doctor Rotta
Jilcol
Roselle
Sorrel
Shantza

[Kenneth La Torre]

Once episode 126 airs, I recommend there will put toppo and vegeta quite high in their rankings, and same goes for jiren, that according to spoilers for 127, is still overwhelming both goku and vegeta (the latter which would have defeated a god of destruction)

[SayianBeyondGod]

Anyway I made a list last night, it's not final and can change very easily.

Feedback is very welcomed.

Infinite Tier

Zeno/Future Zeno
Infinite Zamasu

Beyond Angel Tier

Grand Priest

Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Angels

God of Destruction Tier

Jiren
Zeno's Attendants
Quitela
Beerus
Belmod
Vegetto Blue
SSI Future Trunks [Genkidama Sword]
Merged Zamasu [Corrupted]
Champa
God of Destructions
Toppo [God of Destruction]

Beyond Blue Tier

UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla
SS Kefla
SSB2 Vegeta
SSB Goku [Kaioken x20]
SSB Goku [Kaioken x10]
Merged Zamasu [Halo]
Merged Zamasu

Blue Tier

Anilaza
SSB Goku [Kaioken]
Koichiarator
SSB Vegeta/Toppo
SSB Goku/ Freeza [Golden form]/SSR Goku Black
SSI Future Trunks
Gohan [Ultimate form]
Hit
17
Pirina
Saonel

God Tier

SSG Goku/Goku Black
Vegetto
Kefla
Kale [Mastered SS Bersek]


SS3 Tier

SS3 Goku
Kale [Controlled SS Bersek]
Obuni
Kale [SS Bersek]

SS2 Tier

Piccolo
SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Goku
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Gohan
SS2 Cabba
Kahseral
Zamasu
Rubalt

SS Tier

Maji Kayo
Monna
Kunshi
SS Vegeta
SS Goku
SS Future Trunks
SS Caulifla
SS Gohan
SS Cabba
Damon
Katopesla [Ultimate mode]
Frost
Auta Magetta
Gamisaras

Base Tier

Kettol
Narirama
Vegeta
Goku/Freeza
Caulifla
Future Trunks
Dyspo
Good Boo [Slim form]
Bergamo
Bollarator
Gohan
Koitsukai
Cabba
Panchia
SS3 Gotenks
18
Ribrianne
Viara
Su Roas
Cocotte
Sanka KU
Tupper
Zoiray
Jimeze
Good Boo
Napapa
Basil
Nink
Paparoni
Zirloin
Lavender
Zarbuto
Methiop
Rabanra
Chappil
Kale
Hyssop
Murichim
Hop
Katopesla
Nigrisshi
Vuon
Botamo
Ginyu [Tagoma]
Tagoma

Below Base Tier

Ganos
Hermila
Majora
Dercori
Shosa
Comfrey
Kuririn
Roshi [Max Power]
The Preecho
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Jirasen
Caway
Lilibeu
Murisam
Jium
Shisami
Oregano
Prum
Doctor Rotta
Jilcol
Roselle
Sorrel
Shantza

Besides what wolflonnie said which I can vouch for, especially with Kefla being too high. Why is Caulifa above Gohan? She as a SSJ2 struggled agasint fatigue base Goku with final form Frieza confident enough to take her on. Gohan on the other hand was taking on fullpower SSJ2 Goku as a SSJ2 fine. Also why is mastered Berserk Kale God Tier, she struggling against fatigue SSJ2 and was shocked by SSJ3 power. I don't think struggling to lift fatigue SSG casual ki blast mean much as weaker opponent are capable of deflecting stronger opponent ki blast throughout the series just look at base Vegeta vs Golden Frieza.