Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Berserker1921]

God knows how you'd go about mixing and matching the manga with the movies now.

If it were just the manga I suppose

1. Frieza
2. Gas
3. Goku
4. Vegeta
5. Granolah
6. Moro
7. Broly
8. Jiren

But to try and cross that with the movie and Gohan, Piccolo, Cell Max and the comments that have been made by Toriyama...how?

1. Broly
2. Frieza
3. Gohan
4. Cell Max
5. Goku
6. Vegeta
7. Piccolo
8. Granolah
9. Moro
10. Jiren

Maybe?

In the movies, don’t they still hold jiren in high regard? In toriyama’s canon, jiren’s skill makes him comparable to Broly and other gods.

[Goku9001]

My perspective of the powerscaling would likely be:

Beerus > Gods of Destruction > Beast Gohan > Broly > Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Jiren >=< Cell Max (Incomplete) > Golden Frieza > Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta > Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan > Gammas > Ultimate Piccolo > SSJ Gohan > Base Gohan > Piccolo

1. This one is polarizing but it definitely seems as though Akira Toriyama took the liberty of overriding some of the story's implications. When Goku begins talking to Vegeta about the powerful opponents they still need to overcome, he mentions Jiren and Broly before claiming that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins. What I inferred from this is that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins when all of that is said and done. Beerus may or may not be recognized as the strongest but the GoDs seem to be presented as the final benchmark for Goku and Vegeta to overcome hence their bizarre placement.

2. Piccolo does suggest that Gohan could be the "mightiest warrior" when they were battling Cell Max and he was aware of Broly's power. It's possible that Beast Gohan would be above Broly who is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku based on promotional material and the novelization. However, I would still like to see some interviews and promotional material for Super Hero because I'm not completely sold on this. But it's my gut feeling based on the statements we are given.

3. Orange Piccolo was completely powerless against Cell Max and suggests that even Goku and Vegeta could have handled Cell Max. The fact that Piccolo felt the need to mention this knowing that he himself was powerless against Cell Max seems to suggest that he still viewed Goku and Vegeta as his superiors. Otherwise, using him as a point of comparison wouldn't make sense.

4. Ultimate Gohan wasn't overwhelmingly stronger than Gammas whereas Orange Piccolo completely decimated Gamma 2 in a single blow so he must be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Though to his credit, Ultimate Gohan is out of practice and he managed to hold off Cell Max alongside Orange Piccolo.

5. Golden Frieza is firmly established to be stronger than both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta in the novelization for Broly . However, he should still be weaker than Jiren considering Goku doesn't view Frieza as a significant benchmark for both Saiyans to surpass unlike Jiren, Broly, and the Hakaishins. To their credit, not mentioning Frieza could suggest that they were on his level and it is made clear that both were training since the events of Broly so it is hard to tell.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So the scaling in the manga is pretty straightforward. It’s confirmed Elec is the weakest Heeter, so he’s probably just Captain Ginyu level.

As for the movie, I think the basic power chain is pretty straightforward, but it gets kinda messy when compared to the rest of Super. Cell MAX doesn’t look like he’s Broly tier at all. Even at his peak the Z Fighters were still making a mockery of him.

[Mr Baggins]

Having finally watched Super Hero, I don't think there's anything especially problematic about having it align with the manga's scaling. It, like Broly, is clearly a movie designed to fit into either continuity (even if there are slight consistency hiccups for both).

At Karin's Tower, Piccolo says the Gammas would be trouble even if Goku and Vegeta were there with them, and given that they're portrayed to be slightly stronger than Ultimate Piccolo but slightly weaker than Ultimate Gohan, I think that puts all four of them somewhere in Blue tier.

Orange Piccolo is obviously much stronger than that, and Toriyama described the form as propelling Piccolo to Goku's heights, so I'd put that one in "Ultra" tier. Cell Max and Son Gohan Beast are more powerful still.

The interesting question for me, assuming these stories will coincide, is who's the strongest fighter between Gohan Beast and Black Freeza. Would be a fun match-up to see.

[ZombieVito]

So the scaling in the manga is pretty straightforward. It’s confirmed Elec is the weakest Heeter, so he’s probably just Captain Ginyu level.

As for the movie, I think the basic power chain is pretty straightforward, but it gets kinda messy when compared to the rest of Super. Cell MAX doesn’t look like he’s Broly tier at all. Even at his peak the Z Fighters were still making a mockery of him.

Well of course they would, Cell Max lacked a completed brain.

[Koitsukai]

So, Black Freeza shifting the balance of the universe means something about how he compares to Beerus, or not at all? The universe's balance is back to what it was before the Namek arc, I guess.

In Super Hero, Goku says it's good to have Broly there so Freeza won't find him/them. As in we need to lay low, we cannot face him. Granted, this interpretation comes from Freeza oneshotting Gas, it wasn't probably written with that in mind for the movie.

Also, I guess the version I watched didn't have Beerus freaking out when Broly was powering up, only the Saiyan afraid Broly would lose it and destroy the planet, so I have no reasons to believe he is on Beerus' level.

[Helios518]

So, Black Freeza shifting the balance of the universe means something about how he compares to Beerus, or not at all? The universe's balance is back to what it was before the Namek arc, I guess.

In Super Hero, Goku says it's good to have Broly there so Freeza won't find him/them. As in we need to lay low, we cannot face him. Granted, this interpretation comes from Freeza oneshotting Gas, it wasn't probably written with that in mind for the movie.

Also, I guess the version I watched didn't have Beerus freaking out when Broly was powering up, only the Saiyan afraid Broly would lose it and destroy the planet, so I have no reasons to believe he is on Beerus' level.

Balance isn't really back to what is before Namek Arc. Freeza back then was literally a thousand times stronger than the second strongest (Ginyu) which I doubt is the difference between Goku and Freeza now. Even if Freeza is out of Goku's league, Goku and Vegeta could desperately fuse if they really need to get rid of Freeza.

[dragonball0900]

My perspective of the powerscaling would likely be:

Beerus > Gods of Destruction > Beast Gohan > Broly > Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Jiren >=< Cell Max (Incomplete) > Golden Frieza > Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta > Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan > Gammas > Ultimate Piccolo > SSJ Gohan > Base Gohan > Piccolo

1. This one is polarizing but it definitely seems as though Akira Toriyama took the liberty of overriding some of the story's implications. When Goku begins talking to Vegeta about the powerful opponents they still need to overcome, he mentions Jiren and Broly before claiming that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins. What I inferred from this is that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins when all of that is said and done. Beerus may or may not be recognized as the strongest but the GoDs seem to be presented as the final benchmark for Goku and Vegeta to overcome hence their bizarre placement.

2. Piccolo does suggest that Gohan could be the "mightiest warrior" when they were battling Cell Max and he was aware of Broly's power. It's possible that Beast Gohan would be above Broly who is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku based on promotional material and the novelization. However, I would still like to see some interviews and promotional material for Super Hero because I'm not completely sold on this. But it's my gut feeling based on the statements we are given.

3. Orange Piccolo was completely powerless against Cell Max and suggests that even Goku and Vegeta could have handled Cell Max. The fact that Piccolo felt the need to mention this knowing that he himself was powerless against Cell Max seems to suggest that he still viewed Goku and Vegeta as his superiors. Otherwise, using him as a point of comparison wouldn't make sense.

4. Ultimate Gohan wasn't overwhelmingly stronger than Gammas whereas Orange Piccolo completely decimated Gamma 2 in a single blow so he must be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Though to his credit, Ultimate Gohan is out of practice and he managed to hold off Cell Max alongside Orange Piccolo.

5. Golden Frieza is firmly established to be stronger than both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta in the novelization for Broly . However, he should still be weaker than Jiren considering Goku doesn't view Frieza as a significant benchmark for both Saiyans to surpass unlike Jiren, Broly, and the Hakaishins. To their credit, not mentioning Frieza could suggest that they were on his level and it is made clear that both were training since the events of Broly so it is hard to tell.

Actually, Gohan and Piccolo both agreed that not even SSB Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max. Toriyama also said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and Vegeta, not below. So it would make sense to place Orange Piccolo and SSB Goku and Vegeta all as equals.

Also, I believe Base Gohan should be below Base Piccolo. Base Piccolo can't possibly be that weak compared to an out of shape Base Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

Actually, Gohan and Piccolo both agreed that not even SSB Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max. Toriyama also said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and Vegeta, not below. So it would make sense to place Orange Piccolo and SSB Goku and Vegeta all as equals.

Also, I believe Base Gohan should be below Base Piccolo. Base Piccolo can't possibly be that weak compared to an out of shape Base Gohan.

They never mention Super Saiyan Blue.

[Goku9001]

My perspective of the powerscaling would likely be:

Beerus > Gods of Destruction > Beast Gohan > Broly > Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Jiren >=< Cell Max (Incomplete) > Golden Frieza > Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta > Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan > Gammas > Ultimate Piccolo > SSJ Gohan > Base Gohan > Piccolo

1. This one is polarizing but it definitely seems as though Akira Toriyama took the liberty of overriding some of the story's implications. When Goku begins talking to Vegeta about the powerful opponents they still need to overcome, he mentions Jiren and Broly before claiming that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins. What I inferred from this is that they'd still need to surpass the Hakaishins when all of that is said and done. Beerus may or may not be recognized as the strongest but the GoDs seem to be presented as the final benchmark for Goku and Vegeta to overcome hence their bizarre placement.

2. Piccolo does suggest that Gohan could be the "mightiest warrior" when they were battling Cell Max and he was aware of Broly's power. It's possible that Beast Gohan would be above Broly who is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku based on promotional material and the novelization. However, I would still like to see some interviews and promotional material for Super Hero because I'm not completely sold on this. But it's my gut feeling based on the statements we are given.

3. Orange Piccolo was completely powerless against Cell Max and suggests that even Goku and Vegeta could have handled Cell Max. The fact that Piccolo felt the need to mention this knowing that he himself was powerless against Cell Max seems to suggest that he still viewed Goku and Vegeta as his superiors. Otherwise, using him as a point of comparison wouldn't make sense.

4. Ultimate Gohan wasn't overwhelmingly stronger than Gammas whereas Orange Piccolo completely decimated Gamma 2 in a single blow so he must be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Though to his credit, Ultimate Gohan is out of practice and he managed to hold off Cell Max alongside Orange Piccolo.

5. Golden Frieza is firmly established to be stronger than both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta in the novelization for Broly . However, he should still be weaker than Jiren considering Goku doesn't view Frieza as a significant benchmark for both Saiyans to surpass unlike Jiren, Broly, and the Hakaishins. To their credit, not mentioning Frieza could suggest that they were on his level and it is made clear that both were training since the events of Broly so it is hard to tell.

Actually, Gohan and Piccolo both agreed that not even SSB Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max. Toriyama also said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and Vegeta, not below. So it would make sense to place Orange Piccolo and SSB Goku and Vegeta all as equals.

Also, I believe Base Gohan should be below Base Piccolo. Base Piccolo can't possibly be that weak compared to an out of shape Base Gohan.

Sure. The point was that Piccolo and Gohan were weaker Cell Max and they felt the need to illustrate that even Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him. My takeaway is that Orange Piccolo bridged the massive gap between him and the Blue Saiyans but he's still a step below them.

[Hugo Boss]

I would like to point out that, after seeing Super Hero yesterday, Goku and Vegeta are cited/implied in several power comparisons vs. Gammas & Gohan & Jiren etc, but I don’t think their “ultra” forms are being accounted, as Super Saiyan Blue was their strongest form observable in the other movies.

To corroborate that, Goku sees Jiren as one of the people stronger than him and Vegeta, which by this point in the manga is extremely unlikely considering his current level of ultra instinct and people stronger than Jiren that Goku has already proven himself to be capable of beating. The whole scene plays out as Goku and Vegeta having that same Jiren from ToP, Broly and the Gods of Destruction as benchmarks to surpass, suggesting the status quo wasn’t that much different from when they fought Broly, despite the movie placement in the timeline. Broly himself has already been surpassed by Moro and, if he wasn’t in another universe or dimension like Freeza, has definitely been surpassed by Granolah and Gas as well.

Another thing that seemingly wasn’t mentioned in any spoiler summary that I’ve read is that Gohan was secretly training his makankosappo. That would suggest at least that Gohan is occasionally training in his free time, which is a nice development since he fought on RoF (and sorta justifies how he was doing so well against an android comparable to SSB Goku).

And speaking of Gammas, the movie at first implies they are comparable to Goku and Vegeta (Piccolo even says they are on the same level), but at the end it’s admitted that they amounted to more against Cell Max that Goku and Vegeta ever would do, so that came off as a little surprise. Piccolo also says to Hedo that Gamma #2’s sacrifice was fundamental to win that fight, so perhaps not even Beast Gohan could beat Cell Max at full power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, AT is a simple guy, and for simplicity's sake it's better to only take SSJB into account. Since it's been 3 years Goku and Vegeta have improved a lot, but nobody knows that. This way everyone gets to be SSJB level:

Orange Piccolo ~ Current SSJB Goku and Vegeta >>> Old SSJB Goku and Vegeta >= Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 >= Ultimate Piccolo

3. Orange Piccolo was completely powerless against Cell Max and suggests that even Goku and Vegeta could have handled Cell Max. The fact that Piccolo felt the need to mention this knowing that he himself was powerless against Cell Max seems to suggest that he still viewed Goku and Vegeta as his superiors. Otherwise, using him as a point of comparison wouldn't make sense.

It's just a thing of respect, just like when Tenshinhan said even Goku might not beat the androids after Vegeta lost. It's just that Goku is always the guy who gets shit done one way or the other.

[Berserker1921]

So, Black Freeza shifting the balance of the universe means something about how he compares to Beerus, or not at all? The universe's balance is back to what it was before the Namek arc, I guess.

In Super Hero, Goku says it's good to have Broly there so Freeza won't find him/them. As in we need to lay low, we cannot face him. Granted, this interpretation comes from Freeza oneshotting Gas, it wasn't probably written with that in mind for the movie.

Also, I guess the version I watched didn't have Beerus freaking out when Broly was powering up, only the Saiyan afraid Broly would lose it and destroy the planet, so I have no reasons to believe he is on Beerus' level.

I can see it as a power struggle between Beerus and Frieza now. Like they are the only two countries that have nukes. None want to mess with either. However, you’d be safer if you side with one of them instead of being in the middle.

[ZombieVito]

Doesn't this imply that Beast Gohan wouldn't be able to beat Cell Max when the latter is at full power?

[Goku9001]

It's just a thing of respect, just like when Tenshinhan said even Goku might not beat the androids after Vegeta lost. It's just that Goku is always the guy who gets shit done one way or the other.

Goku was mentioned because he was one of their strongest options alongside Vegeta and Trunks. In fact, Goku is equally as capable against the Androids as Vegeta and Trunks would be since he's not that far apart from either of them. Likewise, Goku and Vegeta were mentioned when battling Cell Max because it was their strongest option. That's the narrative impact behind Beast Gohan. Gohan needed to be backed into that corner even if Goku and Vegeta were here.

This is no different than Kami mentioning to Piccolo how Trunks and Vegeta were powerless against the Androids. The Super Saiyans at the time were the strongest hence why they were used as benchmarks to compare the Androids.

And speaking of Gammas, the movie at first implies they are comparable to Goku and Vegeta (Piccolo even says they are on the same level), but at the end it’s admitted that they amounted to more against Cell Max that Goku and Vegeta ever would do, so that came off as a little surprise. Piccolo also says to Hedo that Gamma #2’s sacrifice was fundamental to win that fight, so perhaps not even Beast Gohan could beat Cell Max at full power.

That's interesting. I suppose the dubbed omitted the comparison between the Gammas and Goku/Vegeta entirely.

I'm assuming you think the Gammas were stronger than Goku and Vegeta by the time they fought Cell Max or at least comparable? I do recall Hedo suggesting that the Gammas obtain data as they fight. Perhaps that made a difference.

[Berserker1921]

Doesn't this imply that Beast Gohan wouldn't be able to beat Cell Max when the latter is at full power?

Maybe? But I doubt it. I suspect had Cell-Max not been injured, Gohan still would defeated him. But maybe with some more effort.

But if we include toriyama’s statements, would you say that Gohan is weaker or equal-ish to Broly? Since cell max completed could have beaten Broly. But an incomplete cell would have possibly defeated Gohan if he wasn’t injured?

[Goku9001]

Piccolo could have simply been comforting Hedo by honoring Gamma 2's sacrifice. Beast Gohan was blatantly far stronger than Incomplete Max.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm assuming you think the Gammas were stronger than Goku and Vegeta by the time they fought Cell Max or at least comparable? I do recall Hedo suggesting that the Gammas obtain data as they fight. Perhaps that made a difference.

Yes, precisely. Of course, their intel about Cell Max played a big factor, but their power was also accounted. The Gammas are also capable of improving as the fight prolongs, and at the end they were implied to be above Goku and Vegeta. So, they don’t lose on either scenario.

By the way, despite how their fight played out, Beast Gohan is also implied to be weaker than Cell Max at full power. Cell Max’s attack power significantly dropped after Gamma #2’s attack. I should say, before watching the movie in its entirety, I was skeptical about it, but Gamma #2’s big scene is a huge moment in the movie (definitely dwarfs what came later). I left the movie thinking the only one who could single-handily defeat Cell Max was Broly, as long as Cell Max wasn’t perfected.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doesn't this imply that Beast Gohan wouldn't be able to beat Cell Max when the latter is at full power?

I think it's possible Piccolo thinks Cell would kill everyone before Gohan could gather his Ki. Even after Gohan went Beast he needed Piccolo to hold Cell in place before he could finish him.

Cell's dome seems to be incredibly tough for a weak spot. Besides Piccolo's blast doing nothing, Gohan tanks Cell's punch but needs to charge a Makkankosappo to kill him for good.

Goku was mentioned because he was one of their strongest options alongside Vegeta and Trunks. In fact, Goku is equally as capable against the Androids as Vegeta and Trunks would be since he's not that far apart from either of them. Likewise, Goku and Vegeta were mentioned when battling Cell Max because it was their strongest option. That's the narrative impact behind Beast Gohan. Gohan needed to be backed into that corner even if Goku and Vegeta were here.

This is no different than Kami mentioning to Piccolo how Trunks and Vegeta were powerless against the Androids. The Super Saiyans at the time were the strongest hence why they were used as benchmarks to compare the Androids.

But Goku was not the strongest, so by your logic Tien shouldn't have brought him up either. Piccolo is also equally as capable against Cell as Goku and Vegeta, so it all works out.

And I assume you'll change your mind to Goku and Vegeta > Gohan when you see Gohan is the one who brings them up in the sub?

Piccolo could have simply been comforting Hedo by honoring Gamma 2's sacrifice. Beast Gohan was blatantly far stronger than Incomplete Max.

He's not talking to Hedo in the first panel.

[Goku9001]

But Goku was not the strongest, so by your logic Tien shouldn't have brought him up either. Piccolo is also equally as capable against Cell as Goku and Vegeta, so it all works out.

And I assume you'll change your mind to Goku and Vegeta > Gohan when you see Gohan is the one who brings them up in the sub?

Which is irrelevant for reasons I already stated. Aside from that, Tenshinhan is presenting the idea that the situation is hopeless even with Goku because Goku has always been the strongest and never failed to save them in the past. Even if you want to argue that "Goku is not the strongest", all of the Super Saiyans are lumped together and either one of them doesn't really perform that differently against the Androids. Super Saiyans > Everything, therefore this is a moot point and just being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic.

He's not talking to Hedo in the first panel.

You do realize that the fight with Cell Max encapsulates far more than just Beast Gohan fighting Cell Max, correct?

I stand by what I said in the 2nd panel.