Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Green]

Were Freezer, Buu or any of the androids "expert martial artists" for the matter? Didn't seem they had a problem kicking the Z warriors' asses. Just another pathetic Toei escamotage.

On topic, seems like Berserk Kale wasn't stronger than SS3 afterall.

[Simere]

Were Freezer, Buu or any of the androids "expert martial artists" for the matter?

Yeah, they were.

[JazzMazz]

Were Freezer, Buu or any of the androids "expert martial artists" for the matter? Didn't seem they had a problem kicking the Z warriors' asses. Just another pathetic Toei escamotage.

On topic, seems like Berserk Kale wasn't stronger than SS3 afterall.

For interesting fights and good writing, I'll take it over the multiplying dribble that doesn't mean anything that we've been getting from the series since Z and even early Dragonball.

[AvatarReiko]

The power levels in this episode really confused me. Base Goku is somehow able to fend off SSJ2 Caulifa, who was also giving him a good fight in his SSJ2. At the same time, a tag team of SSJ2 Caulifa and SSJ Kale still cannot overpower Goku. So from what I got from this episode...

SSJ2 Goku>>>Base Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa=SSJ2 Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa & SSJ Kale. Egh.

I am officially lost now

[JazzMazz]

The power levels in this episode really confused me. Base Goku is somehow able to fend off SSJ2 Caulifa, who was also giving him a good fight in his SSJ2. At the same time, a tag team of SSJ2 Caulifa and SSJ Kale still cannot overpower Goku. So from what I got from this episode...

SSJ2 Goku>>>Base Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa=SSJ2 Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa & SSJ Kale. Egh.

I am officially lost now

The show is obviously trying its hardest to reel powerlevels back in to make less powerful characters more revelant and to upon up avenues for more interesting writing.

[Hawk9211]

Were Freezer, Buu or any of the androids "expert martial artists" for the matter? Didn't seem they had a problem kicking the Z warriors' asses. Just another pathetic Toei escamotage.

On topic, seems like Berserk Kale wasn't stronger than SS3 afterall.

Buu was as well as freeza if we are talking about mastering and copying techniques.

[Saturnine]

SSJ2 Goku>>>Base Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa=SSJ2 Goku>>>SSJ2 Caulifa & SSJ Kale. Egh.

I am officially lost now

Classic Toei, really

[Shlugo]

Yep, the power levels of this episode were super confusing. I mean, no matter how skilled you are, someone 100x stronger than you should beat you anyway.


Maybe Caulifa was holding back a bit against base Goku.

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

But that doesn't work, since Copy Vegeta just stood there and let Gotenks hit him.

[JazzMazz]

Yep, the power levels of this episode were super confusing. I mean, no matter how skilled you are, someone 100x stronger than you should beat you anyway.


Maybe Caulifa was holding back a bit against base Goku.

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

But that doesn't work, since Copy Vegeta just stood there and let Gotenks hit him.

Has that mulitplier ever been stated in the series?

I know that the "powerscaling" this episode has been confusing for some because its internally inconsistent. But having opponents beating stronger opponents based on skill rather than power is perfectly fine and something I hope they do more of(again, screw Jiren for being a writing monstrousity).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Champa voiced people's current "powerscaling is f**ked" thoughts straight up. If Super Saiyans are stronger than regular Saiyans, why the heck was Caulifla not doing as well against base Goku at first?

Then Whis chimes in and tells us that Goku's a very good martial artist that can analyze and read his opponent's moves and strengths and learn to react to them, even without the Ultra Instinct. It was only when Caulifla started doing the same and learning how to properly react to Goku's moves that she started to gain the upperhand, thus forcing Goku to also use SS2 so that he can keep up. Roshi did this too with Ganos after he powered up, as he was weaker and slower but could easily read the latter's movements and react accordingly.

It's not rocket science people. You can cry out about "BUT THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, Z DIDN'T DO IT LIKE THIS!", but the show lays it out flat. Good martial artists can trump stronger opponents by getting a read on their movements and powers and reacting accordingly. Sometimes, someone's power is too overwhelming, that's still true, but it's not a completely vertical line of escalation.

[Green]

It's not that the explanation per se is hilariously bad and againts Dragon Ball's own established rules, the fanbase already knows that Toei does whatever it wants, just look at GT and Z's fillers. We've already got Saiyans who transform because their back is itchy, it doesn't get worse than that. But this is completely off topic so I won't touch the subject again...

Was Goku holding back when he fought Caulifla in episode 100? Cabba was surprised at how much power she put out this ep when Goku powered up.

SS3 Goku > SS Berserk Kale > SS2 Goku ~ SS2 Caulifla (Power Up) ~ SS Kale > SS2 Goku (Suppressed) ~ SS2 Caulifla (Ep 100) > SS2 Cabba

Or something like that?

[Bullza]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

He landed many hits. Copy Vegeta just stood there and didn't move because they were so weak.

[supercat]

I honestly laugh at those who downplay Piccolo down to Buu saga SSJ2, or even worse, Cell saga SSJ2. There is no basis for this, and if one pays close attention to statements and feats, while taking the time to actual power scale, anything weaker than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) is almost unfathomable.

This whole argument about bad writing, or why didn't Piccolo get stronger before is irrelevant, because power ups have never really been consistent, especially for Piccolo of all people.

A strength discussion thread doesn't really seem like the right place to be whining about bad writing.

Like I said before:

Piccolo > Buuhan = SSJ2 Gohan (vs Piccolo) > Buutenks > SSJ Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Super Buu >/ = Ginyu > / = Tagoma > Base Gohan > Piccolo (RoF)

and I honestly laugh at the guys as you who force your option on others, by saying powering up is only way to move forward instead of make it more real by them getting weaker in time of peace where they didn't train enough. Picoolo for me in buu saga was only above ssj goku/gohan cell arc.

SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) ones shots Picoolo. To be more blunt Vegetto would give problem to goku (not using ssb or ssg or UI), as super nerfed him by putting beerus much above him.

Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan(Buu saga) > Super buu >/ = Ginyu> SSJ2 Gohan(vs Picoolo) > SSJ Gohan(vs Picoolo)> SSJ Gohan (Rof) >/=Tagoma > Unweighted Piccolo(Rof) > Base gohan > Weighted holding back Picoolo

I'm not forcing anything onto anyone. I'm just basing things off of actual statements.

How is getting weaker more real? The only character to have been subjected to that is Gohan and that was clearly stated. Nothing about Piccolo or anyone else regressing was ever stated and/or even strongly implied.

Haha current Piccolo is only a little above SSJ Gohan from the Cell saga? Is that why he was able to defeat SSJ2 Gohan as easily as he did?

SSJ Vegetto is probably nothing compared to even Base Goku at this point.

I utilized actual statements in my previous posts pertaining to all of this, so there's really not much more to debate about here. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't feel like going in circles talking about the same thing over and over.

Especially when at the end of the day, I personally find it impossible to see it any other way other than the following:

Piccolo (current) > Buuhan = SSJ2 Gohan (vs Piccolo) > Buutenks > SSJ Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Super Buu > / = Ginyu > / = Tagoma > Base Gohan > Piccolo (RoF)

[AvatarReiko]

So does this episode confirm that base saiyans are above Namek Frieza?

Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Because it is lazy and makes no sense. Skill has never been a factor before but suddenly he can compete with someone dozens of times stronger than him with skill. Where was this "skill" during the android saga? Vegeta could have beaten 17.Further, when Goku goes SSJ2 in this episode, he has a much tougher time with SSJ2 Caulifa. What happened to his "skill"? If he's that much more powerful than her in base, she should not be able to touch him SSJ2.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So does this episode confirm that base saiyans are above Namek Frieza?

Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Because it is lazy and makes no sense. Skill has never been a factor before but suddenly he can compete with someone dozens of times stronger than him with skill. Where was this "skill" during the android saga? Vegeta could have beaten 17.Further, when Goku goes SSJ2 in this episode, he has a much tougher time with SSJ2 Caulifa. What happened to his "skill"? If he's that much more powerful than her in base, she should not be able to touch him SSJ2.

How about people stop propping up the "lazy and makes no sense" excuse? It doesn't help anyone's argument because it literally doesn't matter. That's how things went done, and unlike our interpretations of certain scenes where no statements are given, this is EXPLICITLY GIVEN by the characters. If this is BS, then so is the idea of turning SS from rage because that's never been a factor before in the original Dragon Ball. So are a LOT of things.

What matters is that that's the exact explanation given. You also conveniently left out how Caulifla was also catching on to Goku's movements and started to keep up with him, thus necessitating him turning SS2 himself.

Look, I get it. This doesn't jive with what was original established in the second series. But guess what? WE'RE ON THE THIRD SERIES NOW. It may be a continuation of the original story, but that doesn't mean that everything about the original two series is cleanly transported over, nor that the same rules apply in every instance.

[HeroR]

So does this episode confirm that base saiyans are above Namek Frieza?

Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Because it is lazy and makes no sense. Skill has never been a factor before but suddenly he can compete with someone dozens of times stronger than him with skill. Where was this "skill" during the android saga? Vegeta could have beaten 17.Further, when Goku goes SSJ2 in this episode, he has a much tougher time with SSJ2 Caulifa. What happened to his "skill"? If he's that much more powerful than her in base, she should not be able to touch him SSJ2.

Saiyan in Super have been above Namek Saga Freeza since the end of Battle of Gods, unless you count Goten and Trunks.

Skill was what kept Goku in the game against Cell. Although Cell scaled himself down for Goku, he was still clearly the superior, yet Goku not only kept up with Cell and tricked him several times, he almost killed him. We also saw skill nearly beat strength with Piccolo and Frost and Roshi vs. Genos.

And if you pay attention to the episode, it was stated that Cali was learning from fighting Goku and wasn't making careless mistakes anymore. It was also never stated that base form Goku was above Super Saiyan 2 Cali power wise. Only that he was able to pushed her back since he was far more skilled.

[Bullza]

Ok I finally watched the episode with subs.

- Base Goku was never as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla so I don't know why people are saying that. They made it very clear that Goku's skills were the cause of him doing so well. Plus it wasn't even a full power Caulifla anyway.

Kinda like Piccolo vs Frost I suppose. Though I guess it doesn't make much sense how they could clash fists equally but whatever.

- Caulifla seems to improve in both skill and power as they fight causing Goku to have to turn Super Saiyan 2.

- Both power up significantly. They seem to be about equal.

- Super Saiyan Kale joins in and they get the upper hand. Goku starts to hold his own better as he gets used to them but still has no choice but to turn Super Saiyan 3 at the end.

- I can't really tell what happened in the preview but are they suggesting that Kale has the power of her Super Saiyan Berserk form but in a slim body? Is that what they were getting at? If so she doesn't seem to be stomping Super Saiyan 2 Goku this time.

So the episode wasn't too confusing. I'd say it went

SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku >= SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ Kale > Base Goku.

Super Saiyan Berserk is probably Super Saiyan 2 level.

[HeroR]

Ok I finally watched the episode with subs.

- Base Goku was never as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla so I don't know why people are saying that. They made it very clear that Goku's skills were the cause of him doing so well. Plus it wasn't even a full power Caulifla anyway.

Kinda like Piccolo vs Frost I suppose. Though I guess it doesn't make much sense how they could clash fists equally but whatever.

- Caulifla seems to improve in both skill and power as they fight causing Goku to have to turn Super Saiyan 2.

- Both power up significantly. They seem to be about equal.

- Super Saiyan Kale joins in and they get the upper hand. Goku starts to hold his own better as he gets used to them but still has no choice but to turn Super Saiyan 3 at the end.

- I can't really tell what happened in the preview but are they suggesting that Kale has the power of her Super Saiyan Berserk form but in a slim body? Is that what they were getting at? If so she doesn't seem to be stomping Super Saiyan 2 Goku this time.

So the episode wasn't too confusing. I'd say it went

SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku >= SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ Kale > Base Goku.

Super Saiyan Berserk is probably Super Saiyan 2 level.

We saw Berserk fight Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Goku got overwhelmed and went Blue. The she walked through the Kamehameha. Even if we assumed Goku was holding back, Berserk would still be above Super Saiyan 2.

[Hugo Boss]

I like the anime is going deeper in the notion that skill is as important as power in battle. That way some “powerlevel inconsistencies” in Dragon Ball Super can be explained, even if I have to be more open-minded than I’m used to in some situations.

[Bullza]

We saw Berserk fight Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Goku got overwhelmed and went Blue. The she walked through the Kamehameha. Even if we assumed Goku was holding back, Berserk would still be above Super Saiyan 2.

He did but the preview for the next episode shows Super Saiyan 2 Goku fighting against Super Saiyan Berserk Kale again but this time he doesn't appear to be nearly as overwhelmed seeing as he sends her flying back with a blast. Kale still needs to fight alongside Caulifla and that clearly isn't enough either if they have to fuse. Goku may transform further or he may not but the next episode could overwrite that old one.