Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

[DragonHermit]

Thanks a lot for doing this Herms. That part about Goku backing off against Beerus interested me when I watched it, so now it's good to know what the reason was behind it.

Thought the exact same thing. Very interesting. Really wish I knew Japanese at this point, but it's hard enough learning languages that share the same alphabet as English.

[RandomGuy96]

Thank you, this is awesome. I'd like to say that this will stem the flow of misinformation, but... yeah, that's probably not gonna happen. But hey, progress!

I find Elder Kaioshin's exchange with East Kaioshin on Beerus weird, for two reasons. One, he states that Beerus's responsibility as a god is to destroy planets, but then immediately says that it actually doesn't serve any purpose. So what's up with that? Two, East Kaioshin references Beerus, but where would he hear of him? Did he just hear of his deeds from South Kaioshin or something, or did they actually meet?

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

Well, Gotenks wouldn't be included, otherwise they'd have to include Vegetto or a hypothetical Goku-Gohan fusion, and label him as the strongest saiyan. As for Gohan... it really doesn't seem Vegeta is including him either for not actually being a saiyan (in the same way a liger is not a lion), since he labels himself as the second strongest saiyan. Unless this is FNF logic and Gohan doesn't have Elder Kaioshin's power-up anymore, or Vegeta somehow multiplied his power many times over out of nowhere after getting relatively modest gains by training for seven years straight and having an evil wizard draw out his dormant power out to beyond its limits.

[Dbzk1999]

Nice to finally see confirmation that goku was referring to both forms of fusion

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Gotenks wouldn't be included, otherwise they'd have to include Vegetto or a hypothetical Goku-Gohan fusion, and label him as the strongest saiyan. As for Gohan... it really doesn't seem Vegeta is including him either for not actually being a saiyan (in the same way a liger is not a lion), since he labels himself as the second strongest saiyan. Unless this is FNF logic and Gohan doesn't have Elder Kaioshin's power-up anymore, or Vegeta somehow multiplied his power many times over out of nowhere after getting relatively modest gains by training for seven years straight and having an evil wizard draw out his dormant power out to beyond its limits.

What's interesting is that Vegeta says that he acknowledged Goku as the strongest Saiyan, not that he is in fact the strongest Saiyan. It sounds like by strongest he means best Saiyan, as in, the best fighter, the #1. It seems like he isn't talking just about battle powers, but about everything that makes Goku a fighter. In other words, it sounds like what he says in the manga. While Goku isn't the strongest, he is the best, as Vegeta couldn't surpass him, while Gohan has the talent & power, but lacks the fighting spirit, and Goku proved that by defeating Majin Boo.

If he was talking about battle powers, he wouldn't have to acknowledge him as the strongest, he would just be the strongest.

[Basaku]

I gotta admit 1 thing I definitely like about Super is how direct it is about establishing dates/events and explaining things, making sure there's straight answer to most potential fan questions regarding Gods, roles, who did what etc. Sure, a lot of this has been mentioned by Toriyama or in guides but it's different when it's actually included within the show.

[Hugo Boss]

Nice work. At last, I have solved one of my curiousities:

Spoiler:

Minute: 9
Kaio: “Goku, don’t be a fool! Beerus-sama is in an entirely different league from anyone you’ve fought before! He’s so strong that he can send the likes of you flying to the furthest ends of the universe with a single snort, as if you were a mere booger!”
Significance: In Japanese this is a bit of typical Kaio wordplay, since the phrase “so strong that he can send the likes of you flying to the furthest ends of the universe with a single snort, is if you were a mere booger” involves a long string of words all beginning with “ha”. The phrase “furthest ends of the universe” (宇宙の果て) is probably best not taken literally. Some fansubbers mistranslated this line to say that Beerus could expand his power from one end of the universe to the other, destroying everything. “Different league” here is literally “different dimension” (次元) in Japanese, and it’s a common stock phrase to describe super powerful people throughout the series, such as Freeza, Super Saiyan Goku, mighty Kaioshin, and recently the revived Freeza in RoF. The “dimension” bit is therefore definitely not to be taken literally. More on this later…

It seems like everything Kaio says about Beerus' power is true but with a taste of hyperbole. Specially in that "single snort" part.

As for the "No. 01... No. 02... Supreme No. 01... tidbit", I think it is a bit clear in Episode 5 that Vegeta has heard of Beerus and possibly factored him in his wandering. Vegeta also doesn't seem to know about Gohan's and Gotenks' true strength. There is the Good Boo, though. Or perhaps it was only between Goku and Vegeta all the time.

[RandomGuy96]

Nice work. At last, I have solved one of my curiousities:

Spoiler:

Minute: 9
Kaio: “Goku, don’t be a fool! Beerus-sama is in an entirely different league from anyone you’ve fought before! He’s so strong that he can send the likes of you flying to the furthest ends of the universe with a single snort, as if you were a mere booger!”
Significance: In Japanese this is a bit of typical Kaio wordplay, since the phrase “so strong that he can send the likes of you flying to the furthest ends of the universe with a single snort, is if you were a mere booger” involves a long string of words all beginning with “ha”. The phrase “furthest ends of the universe” (宇宙の果て) is probably best not taken literally. Some fansubbers mistranslated this line to say that Beerus could expand his power from one end of the universe to the other, destroying everything. “Different league” here is literally “different dimension” (次元) in Japanese, and it’s a common stock phrase to describe super powerful people throughout the series, such as Freeza, Super Saiyan Goku, mighty Kaioshin, and recently the revived Freeza in RoF. The “dimension” bit is therefore definitely not to be taken literally. More on this later…

It seems like everything Kaio says about Beerus' power is true but with a taste of hyperbole. Specially in that "single snort" part.

As for the "No. 01... No. 02... Supreme No. 01... tidbit", I think it is a bit clear in Episode 5 that Vegeta has heard of Beerus and possibly factored him in his wandering. Vegeta also doesn't seem to know about Gohan's and Gotenks' true strength. There is the Good Boo, though. Or perhaps it was only between Goku and Vegeta all the time.

Vegeta can't even remember Beerus when Kaio brings him up though, so it's very unlikely he was thinking of him when he said that. He was either talking about Gohan, or just "the unknown" in general. I think he was talking about Gohan, since he really has no reason to believe that there's anyone outside of Earth that's stronger than, say, Kaioshin.

[FortuneSSJ]

The whole time frame question was kinda bugging me for a while. But now at least it's the correct six months after the defeat of Buu that everyone's memories were erased and "some time has passed since then" is vague enough that the JSAT special can still fit in two years after Buu and both BoG and Super can still have begun 4 years after Buu, therefore making it all nice and consistent.

Not really, because Satan getting the world peace prize for killing Buu scene still exists.
Its still shortly after Buu. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta can't even remember Beerus when Kaio brings him up though, so it's very unlikely he was thinking of him when he said that. He was either talking about Gohan, or just "the unknown" in general. I think he was talking about Gohan, since he really has no reason to believe that there's anyone outside of Earth that's stronger than, say, Kaioshin.

After thinking about it, "the unknown" seems the most likely. Vegeta is used to mention by name the beings he will surpass, he thinks Goku is the strongest Saiyan and he even considers himself the second next. Perhaps Vegeta doesn't know Gohan has become more powerful than him and Goku, and Gotenks didn't do anything before training in the RoSaT that could make Vegeta think he has been surpassed.

[Araki]

The whole time frame question was kinda bugging me for a while. But now at least it's the correct six months after the defeat of Buu that everyone's memories were erased and "some time has passed since then" is vague enough that the JSAT special can still fit in two years after Buu and both BoG and Super can still have begun 4 years after Buu, therefore making it all nice and consistent.

Not really, because Satan getting the world peace prize for killing Buu scene still exists.
Its still shortly after Buu. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

There's nothing proving it's "shortly after Buu". One of the reporters even asks Satan "don't you think they took too long to give you this?". In fact, that means the show wants us to believe a decent amount of time has passed.

[FortuneSSJ]

There's nothing proving it's "shortly after Buu". One of the reporters even asks Satan "don't you think they took too long to give you this?". In fact, that means the show wants us to believe a decent amount of time has passed.

Too long is subjective.
Took him 4 years to receive the prize?! Hard to believe.

[Taskmaster]

Minute: 10~11
Context: Vegeta thinks about Goku as he gets increasing frustrated with being stuck at the resort instead of training (and people in the crowd keep bumping into him)
Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”
Significance: Calling back to his “you are Number One” speech at the end of the Boo arc, Vegeta restates that Goku is Number One, but now also says he isn’t content to remain Number Two (some people considered this inconsistent with his Boo arc speech).

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

Thanks for this. I think it's obvious to anyone at this point that mentioning Goku twice without any disclaimer, as the strongest means what it says. Vegeta fully acknowledged Gohan as the strongest at the beginning of the Buu arc, I don't see how him pointing out Goku is the strongest is now proof of him ignoring Gohan.

[Hitiro]

Context: Goku says how Chi-Chi forced him to get a job.
Goten: “The strongest person in the world might actually by Mum…”
Significance: The implication here is that Goten originally considered Goku to be the strongest in the world, and the Dragon Team subs even include “rather than you…” on to the end of the sentence, but strictly speaking this isn’t explicitly said.

Shouldn't this be "The strongest person in the world might actually be Mum..." And as far as the implication goes does it have to be that Goku is the strongest in the world? Wouldn't this statement still hold true if Gohan was the strongest in the world? Because he still fears his mom as much as Goku does.

[Taskmaster]

Context: Goku says how Chi-Chi forced him to get a job.
Goten: “The strongest person in the world might actually by Mum…”
Significance: The implication here is that Goten originally considered Goku to be the strongest in the world, and the Dragon Team subs even include “rather than you…” on to the end of the sentence, but strictly speaking this isn’t explicitly said.

Shouldn't this be "The strongest person in the world might actually be Mum..." And as far as the implication goes does it have to be that Goku is the strongest in the world? Wouldn't this statement still hold true if Gohan was the strongest in the world? Because he still fears his mom as much as Goku does.

You understand why that implication is there, right? Because Goku is the strongest. They've only pointed it out 3 times already...

[Hugo Boss]

Context: Goku says how Chi-Chi forced him to get a job.
Goten: “The strongest person in the world might actually by Mum…”
Significance: The implication here is that Goten originally considered Goku to be the strongest in the world, and the Dragon Team subs even include “rather than you…” on to the end of the sentence, but strictly speaking this isn’t explicitly said.

Shouldn't this be "The strongest person in the world might actually be Mum..." And as far as the implication goes does it have to be that Goku is the strongest in the world? Wouldn't this statement still hold true if Gohan was the strongest in the world? Because he still fears his mom as much as Goku does.

You understand why that implication is there, right? Because Goku is the strongest. They've only pointed it out 3 times already...

It wouldn't be so strange for Goten considering his dad the strongest person in the world, since he saved him and his brother from and defeated the guy that absorbed them.

[Taskmaster]

You understand why that implication is there, right? Because Goku is the strongest. They've only pointed it out 3 times already...

It wouldn't be so strange for Goten considering his dad the strongest person in the world, since he saved him and his brother from and defeated the guy that absorbed them.[/quote]
Or we can use the obvious answer of "Goku is stronger."

[MaGyunia]

It's normal for Goten to make that claim or assumption, as he loves his father just like Trunks would say Vegeta is actually the greatest. It takes going a little bit more in-depth into it to realize Goku is far from being the strongest warrior in the Universe, which is a good thing because it prevents him from getting too cocky and, as a pure Saiya-jin, pressured to train harder and constantly overcome his (and the others') previous limits.

Just because one is the main protagonist of the series doesn't automatically and necessarily make one the strongest. Goku was at times thought to have been the strongest on Earth (in DB) and in the Universe (DBZ) and will always be Dragonball's main hero, but is actually outmached several times throughout the series (Piccolo Daimao in DB, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza in the Freeza arcs, #16, #17, #18, Cell, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta and especially Gohan in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Majin/Super/Kid Buu in the Majin Buu arc, Beerus and Whis in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, not to mention Turles, Cooler, #13, Brolly, Bojack, Hatchiyakku or Janenba, if you count the Movies and Specials, etc.)- Just the way I've always viewed Tenshinhan as the strongest Earthling instead of Krillin (Krillin is Goku's best friend and Tenshinhan does have long periods of absence and isolation, but the latter keeps on training on a constant basis, shows up to stall Cell and Super Buu, was decisively powered-up after training at Kaiou-sama's place - I see the power-up Krillin got from the Namek Elder as equivalent to it, etc.).

Even dividing it by arcs or sagas you'll almost always find someone who is at that particular time stronger than Goku.

The torch was supposed to be handed by decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, after which it could be argued that they wanted to make Gohan the main protagonist not only by having him become THE hero and THE strongest, but also by having Goku die (the Majin Buu opening and the Great Sayaman saga are the best examples of this), a major move which ultimately failed.

Besides, even if want to make it Goku who ultimately destroyed Kid Buu, you should also point out that the attack he used to do so had energy that, although collected BY him, didn't belong TO him, and he didn't save Goten from Super Buu alone either; throughout the Majin Buu arc, and after it (BoG, Fukaktsu no F, DBSuper) he basically manages to stay on top as one of the strongest warriors in the Universe, but never quite THE strongest (at the current stage, he's surpassed by Beerus and Whis even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and in fact even in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage).

He's the main hero and the main protagonist, not the strongest warrior in the Universe, and sometimes he's not even in the top 3 or top 5 at his very strongest stage.

[Doctor.]

He's not in the top 3 after he achieved SSGSS, after all. Probably not top 5, either, once Champa and his assistant show off their power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Took him 4 years to receive the prize?! Hard to believe.

Having the Dragon Balls active a few days after they were used is even harder to believe. And if we get Videl being pregnant to Pan like in BoG, it will be even harder for me to believe that they would call a 9-year-old a 4-year-old.

[Taskmaster]

It's normal for Goten to make that claim or assumption, as he loves his father just like Trunks would say Vegeta is actually the greatest. It takes going a little bit more in-depth into it to realize Goku is far from being the strongest warrior in the Universe, which is a good thing because it prevents him from getting too cocky and, as a pure Saiya-jin, pressured to train harder and constantly overcome his (and the others') previous limits.

Just because one is the main protagonist of the series doesn't automatically and necessarily make one the strongest. Goku was at times thought to have been the strongest on Earth (in DB) and in the Universe (DBZ) and will always be Dragonball's main hero, but is actually outmached several times throughout the series (Piccolo Daimao in DB, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza in the Freeza arcs, #16, #17, #18, Cell, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta and especially Gohan in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Majin/Super/Kid Buu in the Majin Buu arc, Beerus and Whis in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, not to mention Tullece, Cooler, #13, Brolly, Bojack, Hatchiyakku or Janenba, if you count the Movies and Specials, etc.)- Just the way I've always viewed Tenshinhan as the strongest Earthling instead of Krillin (Krillin is Goku's best friend and Tenshinhan does have long periods of absence and isolation, but the latter keeps on training on a constant basis, shows up to stall Cell and Super Buu, was decisively powered-up after training at Kaiou-sama's place - I see the power-up Krillin got from the Namek Elder as equivalent to it, etc.).

Even dividing it by arcs or sagas you'll almost always find someone who is at that particular time stronger than Goku.

The torch was supposed to be handed by decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, after which it could be argued that they wanted to make Gohan the main protagonist not only by having him become THE hero and THE strongest, but also by having Goku die (the Majin Buu opening and the Great Sayaman saga are the best examples of this), a major move which ultimately failed.

Besides, even if want to make it Goku who ultimately destroyed Kid Buu, you should also point out that the attack he used to do so had energy that, although collected BY him, didn't belong TO him, and he didn't save Goten from Super Buu alone either; throughout the Majin Buu arc, and after it (BoG, Fukaktsu no F, DBSuper) he basically manages to stay on top as one of the strongest warriors in the Universe, but never quite THE strongest (at the current stage, he's surpassed by Beerus and Whis even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and in fact even in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage).

He's the main hero and the main protagonist, not the strongest warrior in the Universe, and sometimes he's not even in the top 3 or top 5 at his very strongest stage.

Except since Goku fought (during) Kid Buu onward we have MANY MANY MANY statements asserting him as the strongest in the world and absolutely ZERO putting it in doubt. It's even been established in the Daizenshuu, BOG, Yo Son Goku, etc. There is nothing that states or mentions Gohan or anyone else for that to even be a consideration.

I know the theories, I almost believed them myself until I realized how I have to completely fabricate and created a metric shit ton of assumptions to make it work.