Anybody already stopped watching Super?

[MCDaveG]

Well, firstly, I am not GT fan. After seeing BoG and Revival of F, I don't see any good reason for having a bad show based on these movies.
Original series ran in tandem with manga, so it's stretched and full of filler because of lack of material. What is there for excuse in Super?
Outside of fanatic fans of course.

[ekrolo2]

People are overreacting right now to be honest. Dragon Ball/Z also had a bunch of plotholes, slow paced episodes, stupid fillers, bad animation, and yet everyone treats them like they were perfect shows and Super is the only one with these kind of problems. That being said I don't think Super is better than Dragon ball/Z, but the series is far from over.

exactly,people just tend to nitpick every single detail of the show,i remember how bad the pacing in the early episodes of DBZ where it takes the Saiyan roughly 16 episodes to reach earth or Goku vs. Freeza fight lasting like 5 hours or something with so many talking,screaming,staring etc.. and also what i noticed is most of the people who nitpick Super so much are mosly GT fans.

Stupid filler is expected when you're adapting a manga, this show isn't. It's taking a story that was already going a little too long in its movies extended cut and by the TV show version is over it'll be almost three times that extended cuts length! There's also the fact we have Kai that's perfectly shown us what a DBZ show would be like if it had a tenth of a hint of what f*cking pacing is, and that was an old show trimmed down, what the hell is this.... things excuse exactly?

How do we go from having Kai which cuts down the 70 episode Namek, Ginyu, Freeza saga trinity down to 37 to a show that drags out an almost meatless story for almost three times its intended length?! This also isn't the 90s where everything had to be drawn by hand so you can forgive the animations being repeated or stuff looking less than ideal, it's 2015 where stuffs done on computers. There is absolutely no excuse for finding the repeated punch, punch, punch animation style acceptable as was used when Piccolo, Tien and 17 rush of episode 7 anymore-

There is no excuse here folks, it's not based on a manga, it has Kai as an example of how to do good pacing and its using modern technology to be made ergo it has no f*cking excuses to make things such as Oolong vs Beerus the focus of an entire episode while simultaneously cutting out stuff that was good from the movie for no good reason and doing Z style repeating animations.

[Doctor.]

By episode 12, Goku had just arrived to face the Saiyans in Kai.

Super's pacing is extremely good for a Dragon Ball series.

[Draconic]

People are overreacting right now to be honest. Dragon Ball/Z also had a bunch of plotholes, slow paced episodes, stupid fillers, bad animation, and yet everyone treats them like they were perfect shows and Super is the only one with these kind of problems. That being said I don't think Super is better than Dragon ball/Z, but the series is far from over.

exactly,people just tend to nitpick every single detail of the show,i remember how bad the pacing in the early episodes of DBZ where it takes the Saiyan roughly 16 episodes to reach earth or Goku vs. Freeza fight lasting like 5 hours or something with so many talking,screaming,staring etc.. and also what i noticed is most of the people who nitpick Super so much are mosly GT fans.

Stupid filler is expected when you're adapting a manga, this show isn't. It's taking a story that was already going a little too long in its movies extended cut and by the TV show version is over it'll be almost three times that extended cuts length! There's also the fact we have Kai that's perfectly shown us what a DBZ show would be like if it had a tenth of a hint of what f*cking pacing is, and that was an old show trimmed down, what the hell is this.... things excuse exactly?

How do we go from having Kai which cuts down the 70 episode Namek, Ginyu, Freeza saga trinity down to 37 to a show that drags out an almost meatless story for almost three times its intended length?! This also isn't the 90s where everything had to be drawn by hand so you can forgive the animations being repeated or stuff looking less than ideal, it's 2015 where stuffs done on computers. There is absolutely no excuse for finding the repeated punch, punch, punch animation style acceptable as was used when Piccolo, Tenshinhan and 17 rush of episode 7 anymore-

There is no excuse here folks, it's not based on a manga, it has Kai as an example of how to do good pacing and its using modern technology to be made ergo it has no f*cking excuses to make things such as Oolong vs Beerus the focus of an entire episode while simultaneously cutting out stuff that was good from the movie for no good reason and doing Z style repeating animations.

Filler is used so that the anime doesn't reach the point of the source material and therefore having nothing to show. The two arcs of Super are buying time for the third arc. It's the same thing it was back then, buying time so that when it reaches the end of the RoF saga the show doesn't have to go on hiatus or something until Toryiama finishes the story. And, with how rushed the announcement of Super was, Toryiama probably only had one or two months in advance before the show started. Storytelling, especially quality storytelling is not done in the blink of an eye.

[sintzu]

Super's pacing is extremely good for a Dragon Ball series.

I think the reason there are complains about the pacing is because we've seen the movie which is a lot faster then this.

You'll see people's opinions change once we get the the u6 arc cause everything will be new and will probably move at the same pace.

[Akumaito Beam]

People are overreacting right now to be honest. Dragon Ball/Z also had a bunch of plotholes, slow paced episodes, stupid fillers, bad animation, and yet everyone treats them like they were perfect shows and Super is the only one with these kind of problems. That being said I don't think Super is better than Dragon ball/Z, but the series is far from over.

While I do think the Dragon Ball anime is pretty garbage for a multitude of reasons I also get why people would want to watch it. It's a few animated chapters of the manga with voices and music. It's making the comic book come to life (to varying degrees of success, granted). Super has yet to add anything of value. I can't really point to anything in Super as justification for making an hour and a half long movie about 5 hours. Like you said the series isn't over yet and I hope I eat my words. I hope we do get something cool out of this. Right now though, I wouldn't blame anyone for dropping this series. Best case scenario: the BOG arc is just a means to an end.

[irreality]

Are you saying that the people who dislike Super probably also outright dislike or merely tolerate Z because of the the manga? It is possible, and would make a lot of sense based on the critiques I've heard. Because I don't think Super is particularly different than Z in terms of pacing, themes, color pallete, tropes, story, tone or balance (or even animation quality if you exempt episode 5).

The only general complaints that made sense to me for fans of DBZ are people bored with the retelling (as well as some specific complaints about quality/choreography), but that wouldn't make sense for people who only tolerated Z for an animated version of the manga -- there would also be no surprises there.

[fadeddreams5]

By episode 12, Goku had just arrived to face the Saiyans in Kai.

Super's pacing is extremely good for a Dragon Ball series.

And what happened in those 12 episodes of Kai? We get a recap of everything that occurred in Dragon Ball; we're introduced to Gohan; Raditz appears and reveals Goku's true origins; Raditz fights Piccolo and Goku; Goku is killed; Raditz tells everyone about the approaching saiyans; everyone begins their own serious training regime for a year; King Kai is introduced; the saiyans arrive; most of the main characters are killed; and Goku finally makes it to the battlefield in one of the most exciting moments of the series. The pacing is good and makes Goku's arrival exciting by creating a sense of anticipation from the beginning.

Super, on the other hand? We begin with slice of life with Goku, Vegeta, and hell, Beerus, the mysterious new "villain" who is hard to view as a serious threat; we get a hilarious episode with Pilaf; Beerus fights Goku in a anticlimactic match riddled with the worst animation in DB history; that garsh darn funny Vegeta becomes a chef to prevent the diabolical Beerus from hurting anyone; Beerus fights the characters, only it's barely a fight; we're led to believe shit is going to get real when Beerus slaps Bulma, but the next episode involves Oolong playing rock-paper-scissors with him; and Goku finally arrives and enters a circle jerk to become a SSJG, which is just as aesthetically disappointing as the fight between him and Beerus so far, which is taking longer than it should considering, you know, this entire arc is a rehash of a movie!

Super's pacing is extremely bad. It's padded with comedic scenes that just aren't very funny and kill the mood time and again.

[Doctor.]

That's not a pacing issue. You're complaining about other aspects of the series. It feels slow because, duh, it's retelling the movie. Just like any manga reader will tell you that Kai's pacing is also slow as shit, considering everything that happens until episode 12 of Kai, happens in, what? 15, 20 chapters in the manga?

[ekrolo2]

That's not a pacing issue. You're complaining about other aspects of the series. It feels slow because, duh, it's retelling the movie. Just like any manga reader will tell you that Kai's pacing is also slow as shit, considering everything that happens until episode 12 of Kai, happens in, what? 10 chapters in the manga?

The thing is, the manga readers never got something resembling a filler-less Dragon Ball Z animated which drastically improves Kai's re-watch ability even for someone who's raid the manga or watched Z or both. But we have the real extended cut of BoG, one that's already kinda long as is and now we're getting the super extended cut that's dragged its ass.

[Draconic]

By episode 12, Goku had just arrived to face the Saiyans in Kai.

Super's pacing is extremely good for a Dragon Ball series.

And what happened in those 12 episodes of Kai? We get a recap of everything that occurred in Dragon Ball; we're introduced to Gohan; Raditz appears and reveals Goku's true origins; Raditz fights Piccolo and Goku; Goku is killed; Raditz tells everyone about the approaching saiyans; everyone begins their own serious training regime for a year; King Kai is introduced; the saiyans arrive; most of the main characters are killed; and Goku finally makes it to the battlefield in one of the most exciting moments of the series. The pacing is good and makes Goku's arrival exciting by creating a sense of anticipation from the beginning.

Super's pacing is extremely bad. It's padded with comedic scenes that just aren't very funny and kill the mood time and again.

Super actually: reveals the new villain, reveals Videl is pregnant, reveals Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near close to them, everybody is put down easier than ever, Goku reaches a new form, Goku gets accustomed to his new form, Goku battles Beerus, Beerus leaves Goku for dead, Goku finally masters his God form, Goku manages to create a technique to prevent the destruction of the universe.

Just because you focus on the bad things, that doesn't mean Super doesn't advance the plot. I could do the same thing you did for Dragon Ball Z too.

[Doctor.]

I don't get the complaint. Fleshing things out is bad now, apparently? The only times I felt like they needlessly padded stuff out was with episode 8 and this one. And Super's BoG arc still remains the SHORTEST arc in the series. It'd be incredibly lame if they adapted the movie into 5 episodes.

[JulieYBM]

Pacing within episodes has been pretty terrible. There's little energy in the way the story is told. Outside of perhaps Hatano Morio of Episode #6 fam all of the episode directors to work on Dragon Ball Super are either inexperienced or lack a personal style that they can imbue into their work.

[irreality]

I think that is a matter of perception, though. I find all Dragon Ball movies, except probably RoF, *too fast*. There is no time to just take a breath and see how it all fits in. Extended BoG is a bit better, but a *lot* of concepts (universes, SSG, Beerus, Whis, Vegeta's emotional growth, to name a few) are introduced in the movie and it feels like a lot. I'm used to my dragon ball introducing one concept per episode. I know people find that drastically slow, but if this was rebroadcast with one episode per day, it would seem like a good pace to digest it.

And even though this is a retelling, they are introducing even more new concepts, such as in this episode big things such as confrontations that shake the universe, as well as small things like Mr. Satan's continuing role as a savior (from more award money to phone calls). I feel like it is turning a movie that could have been easily summarized as "new villain and new transformation at a party" to something that has much higher stakes and affects all the dragon world, and is not something you just "move on" from when the arc is over.

[ekrolo2]

I don't get the complaint. Fleshing things out is bad now, apparently? The only times I felt like they needlessly padded stuff out was with episode 8 and this one. And Super's BoG arc still remains the SHORTEST arc in the series. It'd be incredibly lame if they adapted the movie into 5 episodes.

Goku and Vegeta slice of life episodes didn't need to be separate episodes, they could've been one and even then they don't advance or flesh out anything other than prove that once again, Vegeta's a decent dad, Goku's a selfish one and Goten & Trunks remain terrible characters. Wow, I did NOT know any of this before! Seeing Beerus be vicious is fine but we didn't need an entire episode of him lying around in his house figuring out what a Super Saiyan God is, it doesn't reveal anything more about his character at all.

BoG does the episode 5 fight perfectly, it's quick, shows Goku's arrogance without resorting to twenty minutes of Beerus dodging stuff. Once again, nothing is added. Episode 7 is everyone gawking because Beerus-sama is so f*cking sugoi yo with more dodge fighting where nothing except Dende taking 20 minutes to figure out he's a god is added. Episode 8 is just a slap to the face, end of story. Nothing new added that we didn't see before.

Episode 9 has a good transformation sequence if a bit overly long one but once again, nothing news added that fleshes out anything. Hell, they even cut out the SSG backstory and before you tell me it was garbage, what the hell prevented them from coming up with a new one with Toriyama? Nothing, they were lazy and cut out one thing that warranted expansion.

And then episodes 10 and 11 are just Goku and Beerus f*cking about with more padded out fights with the Goku's arc being axed completely from the film while Beerus gets something resembling one. The thing is, Goku's didn't need to be cut because Supers run time is almost three times longer than the extended cut of BoG! What the hell do you lose by axing that instead of using it as a parallel for Beerus' own? Nothing! You're just axing the one thing that warranted expansion!

[Draconic]

I am just assuming this so people might not take it as a reliable argument, but with Goku and Vegeta going to be trained by Whis in the next couple of episodes, after BoG arc ends, it think that is where Goku's displeasure regarding his powers will get clarified. I mean, with Piccolo's observation that Beerus appears to be training Goku, why have that in when the actual teacher is going to do that? Sure, until we see how that is going to turn out, I get why people might dislike the change.

[fadeddreams5]

That's not a pacing issue. You're complaining about other aspects of the series. It feels slow because, duh, it's retelling the movie. Just like any manga reader will tell you that Kai's pacing is also slow as shit, considering everything that happens until episode 12 of Kai, happens in, what? 15, 20 chapters in the manga?

I've heard the manga's pacing is too fast, though. Regardless, I doubt fans of the manga watching Kai would complain unless they just don't like watching, or are too impatient to watch, anime adaptations in general.

Super is retelling a movie--another animated medium--yet it's padding its episodes with comedic nonsense or other things that don't advance the plot. It's the pacing within the episodes that is bad. With the progress the arc has generally made, it should have been done at least 3 episodes ago.

[Doctor.]

Goku and Vegeta slice of life episodes didn't need to be separate episodes, they could've been one and even then they don't advance or flesh out anything other than prove that once again, Vegeta's a decent dad, Goku's a selfish one and Goten & Trunks remain terrible characters. Wow, I did NOT know any of this before! Seeing Beerus be vicious is fine but we didn't need an entire episode of him lying around in his house figuring out what a Super Saiyan God is, it doesn't reveal anything more about his character at all.

Actually, we do needed those slice of life episodes. #1 is necessary because, well, it's the pilot episode. We need to know what everyone is doing, and it already establishes the main villain of the arc. #2 is necessary because instead of saying "Vegeta's a decent dad", it shows us that Vegeta is a decent dad. Beerus lying around for half an episode wondering about Super Saiyan God happened in Battle of Gods as well.

BoG does the episode 5 fight perfectly, it's quick, shows Goku's arrogance without resorting to twenty minutes of Beerus dodging stuff.

Can't deny that, episode 5 is terrible.

Episode 7 is everyone gawking because Beerus-sama is so f*cking sugoi yo with more dodge fighting where nothing except Dende taking 20 minutes to figure out he's a god is added.

Episode 7 was a really well-done episode. It built-up tension and drama in a way that Battle of Gods didn't bother to do so. You keep complaining about Super being too slow, but Battle of Gods was too damn fast.

Episode 9 has a good transformation sequence if a bit overly long one but once again, nothing news added that fleshes out anything. Hell, they even cut out the SSG backstory and before you tell me it was garbage, what the hell prevented them from coming up with a new one with Toriyama? Nothing, they were lazy and cut out one thing that warranted expansion.

Episode 9 created a transformation sequence that feels like Dragon Ball. It's like comparing the Super Saiyan transformation in the manga to the one in the anime. Can you really say "OH THE ANIME VERSION WAS TOO LONG, THEREFORE IT SUCKS"?

Nothing tells us the Super Saiyan God backstory won't be expanded upon in the future.

And then episodes 10 and 11 are just Goku and Beerus f*cking about with more padded out fights with the Goku's arc being axed completely from the film while Beerus gets something resembling one. The thing is, Goku's didn't need to be cut because Supers run time is almost three times longer than the extended cut of BoG! What the hell do you lose by axing that instead of using it as a parallel for Beerus' own? Nothing! You're just axing the one thing that warranted expansion!

I don't really see how episode 10 and 11 are padded out, they had very good pacing. And again, being longer doesn't inherently mean it's worse.

[irreality]

Retelling is a word that covers a large amount of things. What Super is doing to BoG is *adapting* it to a TV series. It is the different from an adaptation that is a movie vs. one that is effectively a mini-series. E.g. take something like "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy" as a movie vs. as a miniseries. Or Pride and Prejudice, Brideshead Revisited, or even for no book things the difference between telling the story of Gosfords Park vs. Downton Abbey.

The pacing is different because it is a different medium. You shouldn't just hack up a movie into episodes and call it done because it makes no sense. Each episode is self contained, not 20 minutes of a 120 minute movie. There needs to be a story to tell every episode, maybe two -- and you need to have a buildup every episode. There will be a much slower pace to it. A movie has only one main story progression on the other hand: anything told is just a slave to the main progression of the story.

From the examples above: The story of Smiley uncovering the spy is paramount: things like Karla's interrogation are an aside and you don't even need to cast him. While in the miniseries, you can cast someone like Patrick Stewart to be Karla and actually show this scene. The miniseries is 5 and a half hours long, while the movie is two hours long. In Pride and Prejudice, you have each episode being pretty much one of the encounters Elizabeth has with Mr. Darcy, and you really get a feel for the change in opinion they have being slow since some episodes are solely focused on their animosity, and it isn't until later yhtat you get the feel of the change in opinion. In a movie version, you get a much more watered down version of their negative emotions because their positive emotions at the end need to overpower the narrative.

Super is making the BoG story feel like an organic part of the larger Super narrative not distinct pieced together "seasons". Beerus and Whis are characters that will likely be central for all of Super. They can't just seem like villains of the week. I think it has been succeeding at this quite well. They don't seem nice, they don't seem like the same person, and you get a feeling for them in good times and in bad. We see some the points I made above in Super. Beerus is not an "informed personality": we have time to show him being bad, not just been told he was bad as an informed attribute. Beerus can feel evil and then he can feel playful, without having to have his playfulness/"okayness" override everything like in a movie.

They aren't really telling us anything new. They are just giving us time to "hang out" with our characters. Goku's fighting style is playful and one of a student because he has always come across this way. In movies, he is by force almost always forced to come off as a savior because of time contraints. It is not just that it is a retelling, but it is an adaptation. That is what people are missing: they aren't telling us anything new, like a retcon type retelling. They want to tell the story in a way that feels organic with what will come next.

Apologies for the essay quality of this.

[fadeddreams5]

Actually, we do needed those slice of life episodes. #1 is necessary because, well, it's the pilot episode. We need to know what everyone is doing, and it already establishes the main villain of the arc. #2 is necessary because instead of saying "Vegeta's a decent dad", it shows us that Vegeta is a decent dad. Beerus lying around for half an episode wondering about Super Saiyan God happened in Battle of Gods as well.

The slice of life stuff revolving Goku and Vegeta could have been combined into one (pilot) episode, ending with a silhouette of Beerus and a frightened Old Kai. Episode 2 could have combined the Beerus segments from those two episodes and the official episode 3 into one episode.

Episode 9 created a transformation sequence that feels like Dragon Ball. It's like comparing the Super Saiyan transformation in the manga to the one in the anime. Can you really say "OH THE ANIME VERSION WAS TOO LONG, THEREFORE IT SUCKS"?

Please don't compare that fetus-powered circle jerk to any transformation in DBZ.

That transformation scene was overdramatic for a form that makes Goku look like a fairy; the sequence in the movie was much more fitting for SSJG. Also, the entire thing was ruined by hideous art and the decision to make Videl turn randomly blonde.