Red Super Saiyan God(Super) vs Blue Super Saiyan Goku(FnF)

[miguelnuva1]

Does Super Saiyan God Red seem stronger in Super to anyone then Super Saiyan God Blue did in Fnf?

P.S. I tired to make this in the SUper section and couldn't?

[ekrolo2]

The movie characters can likely do this already, especially since Beerus is nerfed in Super. Toryama's probably not inerested in fanboy appeasing destruction porn or hes saving it for a later point in the series when its actually appropriate to do so like say the final battle.

[Hugo Boss]

If you are talking about collateral effects, I think Goku and Beerus in Dragon Ball Super are displaying the most overpowered feats ever seen in the franchise. We have yet to see how things will play out in the FnF Arc.

[Saiyan007]

The movie characters can likely do this already, especially since Beerus is nerfed in Super. Toryama's probably not inerested in fanboy appeasing destruction porn or hes saving it for a later point in the series when its actually appropriate to do so like say the final battle.

How is Beerus nefred in Super?

[ekrolo2]

The movie characters can likely do this already, especially since Beerus is nerfed in Super. Toryama's probably not inerested in fanboy appeasing destruction porn or hes saving it for a later point in the series when its actually appropriate to do so like say the final battle.

How is Beerus nefred in Super?

He needs to use as much as a tenth of his strength to ensure his dominance against Vegeta. I know some people like to handwave that by saying "Oh Vegeta is still like 0.0000000000001 of Beerus' strength even then!" but I really don't buy that at all. Even he was a 0.01 that's still to miniscule a number for Beerus to need 10% of his own strength for it. He's anywhere between an 0.3 and 0.8 as far as I'm concerned.

In the movie Beerus just lets Vegeta ride the way and when he's done he's basically tells him "Cool story bro" and flicks him back down with no mention or indication of needing to increase his strength to anything more he used against Goku. That's why he's in my opinion really nerfed in the show, a fact that only gets more glaring once power scalling starts being applied.

If you are talking about collateral effects, I think Goku and Beerus in Dragon Ball Super are displaying the most overpowered feats ever seen in the franchise. We have yet to see how things will play out in the FnF Arc.

It still feels like a really poor choice to use something so impressive for the first God vs God fight though. Its gonna make anything short of multiversal havoc seem tame by comparison. On the flip side its done a good job of showing just how hypocritical "the fans" are now that Goku's done a more OP feat than Superman but Superman's still too overpowered so I can't condemn this choice too much.

[miguelnuva1]

Only thing I got from 10% Beerus is that Rageta just got a bigger boost then in the movie.

[Blackstripe]

Only thing I got from 10% Beerus is that Rageta just got a bigger boost then in the movie.

This, basically.

Vegeta really powered up hardcore in Super. That's all there really is to it. He even went SSJ2 here, whereas in BoG he just went Super Saiyan.

[ekrolo2]

Only thing I got from 10% Beerus is that Rageta just got a bigger boost then in the movie.

This, basically.

Vegeta really powered up hardcore in Super. That's all there really is to it. He even went SSJ2 here, whereas in BoG he just went Super Saiyan.

That was more likely Toei messing up the lightning again. They messed up Gohans appearance too until they fixed it. As for the boost I can see that as a good alternative intepretation but for the sake of my own vague power rules I find it easier to buy Beerus is nerfed than Vegeta got buffed.

[Blackstripe]

As for the boost I can see that as a good alternative intepretation but for the sake of my own vague power rules I find it easier to buy Beerus is nerfed than Vegeta got buffed.

Even if it should be revealed later that Vegeta tapped into divine power?

[miguelnuva1]

Only thing I got from 10% Beerus is that Rageta just got a bigger boost then in the movie.

This, basically.

Vegeta really powered up hardcore in Super. That's all there really is to it. He even went SSJ2 here, whereas in BoG he just went Super Saiyan.

That was more likely Toei messing up the lightning again. They messed up Gohans appearance too until they fixed it. As for the boost I can see that as a good alternative intepretation but for the sake of my own vague power rules I find it easier to buy Beerus is nerfed than Vegeta got buffed.

Everything else in Super points to Beerus being buffed.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

since super Goku can punch apart the universe and has ever increasing strength so far, I say he wins easily. Blue SSJG isn't even as strong as the red one in the movie

[Polyphase Avatron]

Couldn't one argue that since the weird shockwaves in episode 11 get stronger the farther away they are, and close up only shook the Earth slightly (less than what Goku did powering up to SSJ3), it's not really an effective way to damage an opponent unless they're on the opposite side of the universe from you? At most it could just be a suicide move to take your opponent down with you.

[Blackstripe]

Couldn't one argue that since the weird shockwaves in episode 11 get stronger the farther away they are, and close up only shook the Earth slightly (less than what Goku did powering up to SSJ3), it's not really an effective way to damage an opponent unless they're on the opposite side of the universe from you? At most it could just be a suicide move to take your opponent down with you.

Well, they would still be strongest against whatever they're hitting, of course, the shockwave thing is just because the power is no longer being focused by the fighters after it leaves them. This is evidenced by the fact that Gokuu can completely cancel out the shockwaves by correctly countering Beerus' punch at just the right time.

[irreality]

Ok, forgive my ignorance since I'm rarely a part of power level discussions, but…

Do we *know* red form is stronger or weaker than Blue form? Do they mention this somewhere?

I figured at least in BoG, Red form wears out. Then, the user internalizes that power, and becomes blue form when they turn SSJ. (Goku obviously doesn't turn blue form in BoG since nobody had thought of it). But that doesn't mean Red < Blue or vice versa, just that one can be used at will and the other can't.

Anyway. My point would be, any reason Red form can't be stronger than blue form?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Couldn't one argue that since the weird shockwaves in episode 11 get stronger the farther away they are, and close up only shook the Earth slightly (less than what Goku did powering up to SSJ3), it's not really an effective way to damage an opponent unless they're on the opposite side of the universe from you? At most it could just be a suicide move to take your opponent down with you.

Well, they would still be strongest against whatever they're hitting, of course, the shockwave thing is just because the power is no longer being focused by the fighters after it leaves them. This is evidenced by the fact that Gokuu can completely cancel out the shockwaves by correctly countering Beerus' punch at just the right time.

I don't see how that makes sense, as the vast majority of power/damage is inflicted to things far away. So if SSJG Goku punches SSGSSJ RoF Goku or whatever, only a very small amount of that damage would actually be delivered to his body.

[Blackstripe]

I don't see how that makes sense, as the vast majority of power/damage is inflicted to things far away. So if SSJG Goku punches SSGSSJ RoF Goku or whatever, only a very small amount of that damage would actually be delivered to his body.

It makes perfect sense, though perhaps I didn't explain it very well.

Basically, the power is all there in their respective punches, then, upon striking their opponent, the remnants explode outward in the bizarre wave. What does that mean?

Well, when you use a ki blast or throw a punch in Dragon Ball, they obviously contain enough power to be capable of harming your opponent, yes? Gokuu wasn't throwing punches or blasts at Perfect Cell that were only on the level of Saiyan Saga Vegeta, he was throwing attacks that had the power of his 100% MSSJ form. This means they could destroy the planet easily, but he kept them controlled and focused on their target so that they didn't cause unnecessary collateral damage.

Similarly, the punches of SSG Gokuu and Beerus were focused on delivering damage to their bodies, but the power they released upon meeting each other caused shockwaves that rippled outwards. So, why did they get stronger the farther away they went, then? Because that focus I mentioned above quickly eroded, since the shockwaves were no longer under their control. The shockwaves are a manifestation of their full destructive power untempered by the usual control/focus you see used throughout the series.

Evidence for this is Gokuu canceling out the wave by connecting with Beerus' punch at exactly the right time. He's arresting the momentum of it when he does that, reducing the force of both blows.

[Speedster]

In the movie it was implied that the SSGSS (I.e. blue form) is about as strong as SSG (red form), just the former being the way to reach the SSG level of power without the ritual but on their own. In Super the red form was shown capabilities such as "breathing in space" (i.e. not needing air) and self-healing which make the form look superior to SSGSS who couldn't breathe in water Vs Freeza and got fatally wounded by the ring beam. Also in Super the red form seems to be a closer match to Beerus than it was in BoGs movie but we haven't seen the entire arc yet and I have a feeling that Beerus will pull out a Namek saga Freeza and either have a transformation or a power up that would get him to his "true maximum/true 100%". I wouldn't count the destructive feats shown in Super for SSG as a proof for greater strength as we haven't seen yet the FnF arc adaptation in Super and besides it is all about attack control anyway as it has always been.

[dbgtFO]

Ok, forgive my ignorance since I'm rarely a part of power level discussions, but…

Do we *know* red form is stronger or weaker than Blue form? Do they mention this somewhere?

I figured at least in BoG, Red form wears out. Then, the user internalizes that power, and becomes blue form when they turn SSJ. (Goku obviously doesn't turn blue form in BoG since nobody had thought of it). But that doesn't mean Red < Blue or vice versa, just that one can be used at will and the other can't.

Anyway. My point would be, any reason Red form can't be stronger than blue form?

In the movie it was implied that the SSGSS (I.e. blue form) is about as strong as SSG (red form), just the former being the way to reach the SSG level of power without the ritual but on their own.

This explains it perfectly, though I have a suspicion, that Toei will just straight up state the Blue form is stronger than the red form, as the promotional material did so IIRC and some game, where Whis explains it, did so too.
The original author's intent seems to be exactly how Speedster is describing it, but that seems likely to be ignored in all other media, because we can't have a new transformation without it being better in every way than the former apparently.
The name seems to be imply it's a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan, hence it being stronger than SSGod, whereas Toriyama's script just has Goku mention he's a Super Saiyan, but with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

The movie characters can likely do this already, especially since Beerus is nerfed in Super. Toryama's probably not inerested in fanboy appeasing destruction porn or hes saving it for a later point in the series when its actually appropriate to do so like say the final battle.

He's not nerfed,people early over hyped him. They think he used 1% of his power vs Goku based on the fact he owned him. But in dragonball a small power gap means complete owneage,Vegeta-24,000----------Dodoria-22,000----------Outcome-1 shot kill.

[ekrolo2]

As for the boost I can see that as a good alternative interpretation but for the sake of my own vague power rules I find it easier to buy Beerus is nerfed than Vegeta got buffed.

Even if it should be revealed later that Vegeta tapped into divine power?

If they do okay good, my interpretation got shot down. But as of right now we don't know and it's all people interpreting it differently.