emperior wrote:Comparing first 20 episodes of DBZ, DBGT and DBS, I think DBS wins hands down (except for Ep. 5 animation). Probably DB Kai is better (I haven't seen it though, I preferred to read the manga) but anyways DBS is re-telling stories most of us already know. I'm sure it will pick up with U6's saga. The manga is already there and judging by the way things are going, it will probably be awesome.
Not at all. Radditz and all the Saiyan saga filler has been better than most of Super so far.
I love Super's slice of life episodes but that's about it.
If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better. I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters. People seem to want Super to rush ROF quick as possible.
It has been making me ask what I really want from a new Dragon Ball story. We're too far down the road for another straight reveal -> training montage -> big battle -> plot twist type of story, I think. These silly daily life episodes are on point (seriously, the "Goku and Vegeta can't civilian" shtick is decades overdue), but where do you go from there, with Goku and Vegeta being as strong as they are? You can tell I'm ignoring the movie adaptions; so far there is little enough difference between them that I can still deem them necessary filler in light of Super's rushed production.
Faded is right to mention that Super is being written as a safe sequel series, running not because Dragon Ball has a new story to tell but because people are still putting money down for it thirty years later; I would be genuinely surprised if a portion of Funi's hypothetical Super-on-TV woes come from its being a continuation of an old, old story that would not necessarily be familiar to the network's audiences (I mean, Kai and the internet, sure, I could be wrong). But what else can you do this far down the road? There's no new generation to create new story angles the way Gohan did, and there are very few meaningful ways for the strongest of our crew to be challenged by the world now that our opponents are deities with the power to merit the title.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Hellspawn28 wrote:If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better. I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters. People seem to want Super to rush ROF quick as possible.
Music would still suck. Sound effects would still suck. Fighting choreography would still mostly suck. Animation would range from decent to terrible. Pacing would still be boring and have needless bullshit at times. Slice of life would still be favoured. The scenery would still suck by being boring ass boat in the middle of nowhere. The story would definitely be more intriguing but as well as lack any real memorable set pieces that will be forever remembered in the histories iconic run.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
They really need to focus on the younger generation. It needs to be set after the end of DBZ with adult Trunks and Goten, as well as Pan, Bra and Uub as the new fighters.
The stagnation of Super focusing on Goku and Vegeta only shortly after the end of Buu is killing the series. I can only hope Universe 6 is just a short thing and then we have a massive time skip after the end of DBZ
Hellspawn28 wrote:If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better. I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters. People seem to want Super to rush ROF quick as possible.
Music would still suck. Sound effects would still suck. Fighting choreography would still mostly suck. Animation would range from decent to terrible. Pacing would still be boring and have needless bullshit at times. Slice of life would still be favoured. The scenery would still suck by being boring ass boat in the middle of nowhere. The story would definitely be more intriguing but as well as lack any real memorable set pieces that will be forever remembered in the histories iconic run.
More or less this. I mean, I'd probably like Super more definitely if it wasn't for the movies, well at least the BoG version. F seems to be awful no matter what.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Hellspawn28 wrote:If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better. I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters. People seem to want Super to rush ROF quick as possible.
Music would still suck. Sound effects would still suck. Fighting choreography would still mostly suck. Animation would range from decent to terrible. Pacing would still be boring and have needless bullshit at times. Slice of life would still be favoured. The scenery would still suck by being boring ass boat in the middle of nowhere. The story would definitely be more intriguing but as well as lack any real memorable set pieces that will be forever remembered in the histories iconic run.
The music isn't great, I grant you. But the animation is normal for long running series other than episode 5-- I don't think that would decrease enjoyment for most people with reasonable expectations. Lots of people love the slice of life, and it is long overdue in DB, so I don't think that is a negative. And the scenery art has been amazing in Super -- Beerus planet, space, water scenes, the countryside, even. There has been a lot less "random mountain ranges/barren planets" than in DBZ.
It seems like the next stories will have new set pieces, too, like a new tournament stadium, and who knows where Jaco is taking Bulma.
Hellspawn28 wrote:If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better. I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters. People seem to want Super to rush ROF quick as possible.
Music would still suck. Sound effects would still suck. Fighting choreography would still mostly suck. Animation would range from decent to terrible. Pacing would still be boring and have needless bullshit at times. Slice of life would still be favoured. The scenery would still suck by being boring ass boat in the middle of nowhere. The story would definitely be more intriguing but as well as lack any real memorable set pieces that will be forever remembered in the histories iconic run.
The music isn't great, I grant you. But the animation is normal for long running series other than episode 5-- I don't think that would decrease enjoyment for most people with reasonable expectations. Lots of people love the slice of life, and it is long overdue in DB, so I don't think that is a negative. And the scenery art has been amazing in Super -- Beerus planet, space, water scenes, the countryside, even. There has been a lot less "random mountain ranges/barren planets" than in DBZ.
It seems like the next stories will have new set pieces, too, like a new tournament stadium, and who knows where Jaco is taking Bulma.
The sound effects are still garbage and take me right out of the scene's. Can you imagine if Star Wars did the same thing and replaced it's sound effects? It's so jarring. Animation doesn't just simply go by just how everything looks. The choreography of Super is garbage. The fight scenes are boring "Hey let's fire a Kamehameha a billion times in one fight." Few moments we do have some nice choreography. But a lot of it is terrible, repetitive, and dull. I said the slice of life stuff is favourable, which doesn't mean bad at all. That means it stands out more and is remembered more. Ergo it is the favourable part of Super. When I say scenery I meant mainly the main stuff such boring ass water, space, and more canyons for the fight. I didn't include Beerus' planet and stuff and again, the show does fine when it does scenery that isn't the damn boat which was the main setting for the BOG arc.
I doubt any of what happened in the BOG arc is gonna be remembered and stand the test of time. Just like GT, it exists and it's solely remembered like that. It lacks memorable set pieces and moments that would last throughout time. The new possibilities can possibly do something, but that's something we'll just have to wait and see. Zuno or whoever could become a very important figure, or a one off. We gotta wait and see.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I thought Vegeta's "My Bulma" was pretty memorable, if only because BoG had the exact same scene too so most fans have seen it twice. In Super-exclusive scenes, Beerus stabbing Goku I think would leave a pretty big impression too, if not, then the cilmax of the arc would. Beerus and Whis themselves are characters that will never be forgotten, not like many movie villains and even some of GT's secondary villains.
Last edited by Doctor. on Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hellspawn28 wrote:
If we never got the new movies then people would like Super much better.
I think the U6 saga will be awesome since everyone seems to love the new manga chapters.
The problem fans have with Super is it's production which is very cheap and sloppy, Sure it's main story is good but that's not enough when everything else about it is bad.
Everyone likes the BOG movie but it's Super adaption has gotten mixed reactions to say the least so us liking the manga doesn't mean we'll like it's anime adaption.
One thing fans are excited about is getting to see Piccolo,Buu and other characters fight but if Vegeta who's the 2nd most popular character in the show doesn't get a good fight with Freeza then what will Piccolo&Buu get when we reach the tournament ? off screen fights while Goku gets 5 episodes for every fight he has ? what little they got in the BOG movie was reduced in Super's adaption so don't be surprised if it happens again.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Doctor. wrote:I hope Vegeta doesn't even get to fight Freeza. Goku could be smart for once and kill him.
That would imply Goku learning something from the 30 000 times he let Freeza go on Namek only for the guy to spit in his face over and over but with Toriyama at the helm of anything, stagnation or regression is the name of the game.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Doctor. wrote:Beerus stabbing Goku I think would leave a pretty big impression too, if not, then the cilmax of the arc would.
Beerus and Whis themselves are characters that will never be forgotten, not like many movie villains and even some of GT's secondary villains.
That would have been so much better if he just kept fighting on instead of magically healing himself. It's what made the Piccolo Jr fight dramatic and cool. Goku just kept on going despite such a big set back.
Well yeah, cause they're still around. It's hard to see whether they'd last or not if they stick around. They're not even simple movie characters anymore. They are now mainstay's in the series.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:I hope Vegeta doesn't even get to fight Freeza. Goku could be smart for once and kill him.
That would imply Goku learning something from the 30 000 times he let Freeza go on Namek only for the guy to spit in his face over and over but with Toriyama at the helm of anything, stagnation or regression is the name of the game.
Let's Toei does wonders to Goku's character arc in F just like they did with Beerus' in the BoG arc.
Then again, they also scrapped Goku's arc in the BoG arc of Super, so who knows.
dbzfan7 wrote:I doubt any of what happened in the BOG arc is gonna be remembered and stand the test of time. Just like GT, it exists and it's solely remembered like that.
Vegeta going Ssj3 would've been a classic moment and something that Super as a whole would be known for.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Doctor. wrote:I hope Vegeta doesn't even get to fight Freeza. Goku could be smart for once and kill him.
That would imply Goku learning something from the 30 000 times he let Freeza go on Namek only for the guy to spit in his face over and over but with Toriyama at the helm of anything, stagnation or regression is the name of the game.
Let's Toei does wonders to Goku's character arc in F just like they did with Beerus' in the BoG arc.
Then again, they also scrapped Goku's arc in the BoG arc of Super, so who knows.
The impression I got is that Super intentionally cut his arrogance thing from BoG so it made sense for Super. I mean, it does make sense now but I feel like Goku's got enough flaws that arrogance isn't the only one you can bring up. His naivety or tendency to let logic fall to the way side in favor of battle frenzy could've worked just as well.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Doctor. wrote:I hope Vegeta doesn't even get to fight Freeza. Goku could be smart for once and kill him.
We already know from the manga that they both fight him and defeat him which is interesting cause with Goku being the one who killed him you'd think he'd be the only one Whis would mention when talking about Freeza's defeat/death.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
I always interpreted Whis' statement to apply more to Goku's battle mania and resulting tunnel vision more than arrogance: less "I'm sparing Freeza to prove a point", more "Damn it, now I can't kill Kid Buu because I was having too much fun!" Likewise Vegeta's critique referred not to an buzzing mind or brilliant intellect ("Everyone" says he and Goku are fighting genius, the results are mixed) but to Vegeta's high expectations of himself and how that has historically hampered his judgement, namely his having an existential crisis every other time an enemy overwhelms him.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
I think Super is excellent, I've pretty much enjoyed all of it to be honest. I was nervous when it first got announced, but when they confirmed it would start after Majin Buu, then that (in my opinion) was the only viable option (but that is a conversation for another thread).
People can say whatever they like about the re-telling of the BoG & "F" Arcs being included - but for me, I don't think you can just jump straight into the new series with Universe 6, you have to gradually build towards it.
Toei probably didn't want to say "in order to catch up with events on what has happened between Buu's defeat and Universe 6, you need to watch the two movies" as that would then perhaps run the risk of alienating some of the fans who perhaps haven't had the opportunity (for whatever reason) to watch them.
They could have used the re-telling of the movies as a way of building up slowly to the new Universe 6 Arc, and also, most likely to give Toyotarō a chance to get ahead with the manga, much like how things are anyway with the majority of Shonen licenses, and with anime adaptations in general.
With regards to Toriyama-Sensei's abilities as an author, I personally think he is in some ways as good as he ever was, and even back in the day, he needed support from editors (especially during the Cell Arc) and his work since he returned has been very good.
Beerus, Whis & Jaco are all very worthy additions, and great characters-I don't know enough about Champa & Vados yet, I guess the jury is out until we get far enough into the Universe 6 Arc to be able to tell.
For me, Toriyama has his mojo back, is loving being back involved with the franchise, and that can only be a good thing. If people don't like Super, or the new movies, then fair enough. I hope Super goes on for years, and Toriyama continues to work with drafts and character designs.
DBZ never focused on one character too much. They gave everyone from Piccolo, to Krillin, to Gohan, to Bulma, to Tien, etc. time to shine. Now its just...all Goku and Vegeta.
