Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[JazzMazz]

Yeah let's do the same on Shida, we correct him until his animation can't be recognized. That's good because his inbetweens are so derpy bla bla......

I'm not talking about Shida, who, on the opposite of Tate, usually draws on model, and even when it's not, it still looks good and with nice details.

1. Shida doesn't draw on-model. His characters are a huge departure from the actual character sheets.

2. I could make the same argument for Tate having nice details. Artistic appeal is subjective, so you're not going to get anywhere by saying that Shida is objectively better than Tate. You could make the argument that Shida is better than Tate on a purely technical level. However, you could only go so far with that argument before it starts being merely about personal preference.

3. The general point that Gashif Aldi is trying to make is that talented animators produce their best work when left to their own devices. Animators being overly corrected can bring down the quality or remove the personality from an animators work. A good example of this happening in Super would be Shida's corrected scene from the OP. The corrections in the scene cause the removal of most of the personality usually found in Shida's drawings.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

4. This discussion is getting old due to how few advancements there have been in the last 600 pages. Every interesting and informative point relating to this discussion has already been previously documented. As of now, it's just a matter of people reiterating those same points. All the arguments presented in this post were concise breakdowns of points made by other users.


For those people worrying about episode 110, don't.There is currently no information that suggests the episode will be bad. There is nothing to fret over based on the supervisors on the episode. Just chill out for now.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

[spoiler]

Yeah let's do the same on Shida, we correct him until his animation can't be recognized. That's good because his inbetweens are so derpy bla bla......

I'm not talking about Shida, who, on the opposite of Tate, usually draws on model, and even when it's not, it still looks good and with nice details.

1. Shida doesn't draw on-model. His characters are a huge departure from the actual character sheets.

2. I could make the same argument for Tate having nice details. Artistic appeal is subjective, so you're not going to get anywhere by saying that Shida is objectively better than Tate. You could make the argument that Shida is better than Tate on a purely technical level. However, you could only go so far with that argument before it starts being merely about personal preference.

3. The general point that Gashif Aldi is trying to make is that talented animators produce their best work when left to their own devices. Animators being overly corrected can bring down the quality or remove the personality from an animators work. A good example of this happening in Super would be Shida's corrected scene from the OP. The corrections in the scene cause the removal of most of the personality usually found in Shida's drawings.

4. This discussion is getting old due to how few advancements there have been in the last 600 pages. Every interesting and informative point relating to this discussion has already been previously documented. As of now, it's just a matter of people reiterating those same points. All the arguments presented in this post were concise breakdowns of points made by other users.


For those people worrying about episode 110, don't.There is currently no information that suggests the episode will be bad. There is nothing to fret over based on the supervisors on the episode. Just chill out for now.

[/spoiler]

1. I said usually draw on-model, or at least look more on-model than Tate.

2. Fair enough, for me (and a huge portion of the average viewer), Tate is not for my taste pun intended

3. I see nothing wrong on this scene, but my point about Tate is that all of the animators are supposed to follow the character designs, why it's different for him ?

4. I know that ep 110 will probably look good, they will for sure put much effort on a episode of this importance.

[JazzMazz]

[spoiler]

I'm not talking about Shida, who, on the opposite of Tate, usually draws on model, and even when it's not, it still looks good and with nice details.

1. Shida doesn't draw on-model. His characters are a huge departure from the actual character sheets.

2. I could make the same argument for Tate having nice details. Artistic appeal is subjective, so you're not going to get anywhere by saying that Shida is objectively better than Tate. You could make the argument that Shida is better than Tate on a purely technical level. However, you could only go so far with that argument before it starts being merely about personal preference.

3. The general point that Gashif Aldi is trying to make is that talented animators produce their best work when left to their own devices. Animators being overly corrected can bring down the quality or remove the personality from an animators work. A good example of this happening in Super would be Shida's corrected scene from the OP. The corrections in the scene cause the removal of most of the personality usually found in Shida's drawings.

4. This discussion is getting old due to how few advancements there have been in the last 600 pages. Every interesting and informative point relating to this discussion has already been previously documented. As of now, it's just a matter of people reiterating those same points. All the arguments presented in this post were concise breakdowns of points made by other users.


For those people worrying about episode 110, don't.There is currently no information that suggests the episode will be bad. There is nothing to fret over based on the supervisors on the episode. Just chill out for now.

[/spoiler]

1. I said usually draw on-model, or at least look more on-model than Tate.

2. Fair enough, for me (and a huge portion of the average viewer), Tate is not for my taste pun intended

3. I see nothing wrong on this scene, but my point about Tate is that all of the animators are supposed to follow the character designs, why it's different for him ?

4. I know that ep 110 will probably look good, they will for sure put much effort on a episode of this importance.

1. He doesn't draw on model at all unless his work has been visibly corrected. He deviates from the character designs as much as Tate, he just does so in a different way that you personaly enjoy.(Link:viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1215973&hi ... l#p1215973)

2. Glad we could find some intersection here.

3. The character sheets are just a reference for how the characters should be drawn which animators may or may not follow. It doesn't make any sense to not allow your top talents to have creative freedoms with their work. Tate and Shida are good examples of this, as both do their own thing. Also, loads of supervisors on the show don't follow the model sheet, just look at Yuichi Karasawa and Masahiro Shimanuki.(Link:viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1215834&hi ... l#p1215834)
A noticeable amount of detail usually found in his work simply isn't in the OP. Here's some stuff from episode 95 for comparison.(Shida's OP scene is fine by the way)
[spoiler]





[/spoiler]
[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

4. Unless something like an animator speaking out suggests otherwise(such as when Ken Otsuka tweeted about how rushed he was when working on episode 39) there really isn't any reason to worry about the episode yet.

The links are to posts that already answer the questions you've asked.

[dhaval_dongre]

Manabe also does his own thing as well. But I really love that Tate's entire drawings are loose and don't have those unnecessary details to the muscles. It definitely helps during animation, and that's why I am glad Yamamuro isn't around. Because he would have definitely redrawn them.

Karasawa and Shimanuki's do have those though. I think it might be their personal choice rather than them being forced to draw that way. Or is my assumption incorrect ?

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

3. The general point that Gashif Aldi is trying to make is that talented animators produce their best work when left to their own devices. Animators being overly corrected can bring down the quality or remove the personality from an animators work. A good example of this happening in Super would be Shida's corrected scene from the OP. The corrections in the scene cause the removal of most of the personality usually found in Shida's drawings.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Corrected Shida makes me feel all dead on the inside. I mean fuck, look at this.
[spoiler]Uncorrected Shida - EP 95

Corrected Shida - DBS OP 2
[/spoiler]
That correction of Goku makes him look so boring. The shading on his face is so lame. You would think his face would be detailed with shading since it's a closeup.

Did Yamamuro correct Shida's Goku vs Beerus cut from Battle of Gods? Because if he did, he seemed way more lenient there when it came to the corrections compared to the second opening of Dragon Ball Super.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[JazzMazz]

3. The general point that Gashif Aldi is trying to make is that talented animators produce their best work when left to their own devices. Animators being overly corrected can bring down the quality or remove the personality from an animators work. A good example of this happening in Super would be Shida's corrected scene from the OP. The corrections in the scene cause the removal of most of the personality usually found in Shida's drawings.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Corrected Shida makes me feel all dead on the inside. I mean fuck, look at this.
[spoiler]Uncorrected Shida - EP 95

Corrected Shida - DBS OP 2
[/spoiler]
That correction of Goku makes him look so boring. The shading on his face is so lame. You would think his face would be detailed with shading since it's a closeup.

Did Yamamuro correct Shida's Goku vs Beerus cut from Battle of Gods? Because if he did, he seemed way more lenient there when it came to the corrections compared to the second opening of Dragon Ball Super.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think he did correct certain parts of that scene, but I think he left the majority of it pretty untouched. He also didn't touch up Ryo Onishi's scene. I think his involvement was minimal in those scenes because the result wouldn't look good if he did get involved.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[aaronWgamer]

Hopefully Tate gets corrected or Yamamuro steps in and do the key animation himself of the transformation.

This is a moment where it should look absolutely on-model and detailed, something that Tate can't/don't want to do, even his stills are ugly sometimes, as also his rubber-like body proportions and movements.

I can at least see why you'd want Yamamuro to correct the sequence from an objective standpoint; it'd be an important moment so it being on-model and polished would be the safest way of presenting it.

However, he's a very average key animator based on his more recent work so I'm not sure why you want him to do the KA. His style also isn't incredibly detailed, in a lot of ways it looks overly simplistic and is missing some of the nicer stylistic choices which once made his work look great (e.g. indented face shading, more defined head shape, etc).

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I dunno about OP removing Shida's personality in his cut, when the OP débuted first thing everyone screamed was Shida and tbh the cut goes way too quick your eyes can barely lock on to even notice anything and you only can by pausing which obviously isn't the way it is meant to be seen, if it is something like Shida's drawing of Golden Freeza and Goku punching each other and the camera actually focuses on it then it's understandable but when the scene goes too fast and you have pause then I don't think it really matters.

[Chuquita]

Part of why I like Super being a weekly series is it means more freedom from Yamamuro's corrections (I like seeing all the different artists' styles shine through) than if it were movies, so I'm hoping if he is on the special that he doesn't correct much, if anything.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Part of why I like Super being a weekly series is it means more freedom from Yamamuro's corrections (I like seeing all the different artists' styles shine through) than if it were movies, so I'm hoping if he is on the special that he doesn't correct much, if anything.

He didn't really overly correct on the Res F special, to the point I remember Ajay was convinced he wasn't the supervisor for it, plus all his un-credited work on DBS has been fine by definition so it shouldn't be an issue. It is weird though he seems to have improved everywhere but his promo image drawing... super weird.

[Chuquita]

Part of why I like Super being a weekly series is it means more freedom from Yamamuro's corrections (I like seeing all the different artists' styles shine through) than if it were movies, so I'm hoping if he is on the special that he doesn't correct much, if anything.

He didn't really overly correct on the Res F special, to the point I remember Ajay was convinced he wasn't the supervisor for it, plus all his un-credited work on DBS has been fine by definition so it shouldn't be an issue. It is weird though he seems to have improved everywhere but his promo image drawing... super weird.

Maybe it's an amount of time thing? Maybe he's rushed when it comes to promo art? I don't know.

[cuartas]

snip

I see a contradiction here:
- You praise that shida off model work and his extremely well done shading compared to his corrected work in OP, but at the same time tate is somehow good despite his oversimplified shading to zero shading at all

That brings 2 conclusions:
- We have to add off model AND appealing to the equation, shida is artistically better, his designs are more organic and corrected or uncorrected looks good, it doesn't matter if his work is touched by yamamuro or not.
- Tate is artistically unappealing, this forum has to be the only place where people prefer tate stills than yamamuro's or shimamuki's or karasawa's and just because it brings some good bits of animation in return, with him it has to exist a sacrifice, this is not the case with shida at all

Bonus opinion: I will always choose tate corrected for stills and key frames, we don't lose too much vs uncorrected art wise.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

snip

I see a contradiction here:
- You praise that shida off model work and his extremely well done shading compared to his corrected work in OP, but at the same time tate is somehow good despite his oversimplified shading to zero shading at all

That brings 2 conclusions:
- We have to add off model AND appealing to the equation, shida is artistically better, his designs are more organic and corrected or uncorrected looks good, it doesn't matter if his work is touched by yamamuro or not.
- Tate is artistically unappealing, this forum has to be the only place where people prefer tate stills than yamamuro's or shimamuki's or karasawa's and just because it brings some good bits of animation in return, with him it has to exist a sacrifice, this is not the case with shida at all

Bonus opinion: I will always choose tate corrected for stills and key frames, we don't lose too much vs uncorrected art wise.

Completely agree, and also Tate animation itself is weird and unappealing for me because of the very rough art and the gelatinous movements.

Regarding the Shida vs Tate art, it happened something similar on DBZ, when both Masunaga and Uchiyama art usually are off-model, but Masunaga, rightfully (imo), is praised and Uchiyama is bashed. This is because Masunaga art is detailed and appealing, and Uchiyama art, even when he draw on-model, is bland in comparison.

[Burast]

I find a little bit hard to believe we are going 107 episodes, almost 700 pages of this, and a great amount of people still continues to criticize this much Tate's work, and how they say that he does not deserves to be supervisor of this special.
I am sure and confident that his participation in that episode will silence many mouths.

[dhaval_dongre]

I understand that Tate's work is very different than your usual DB stuff, but I think people need to respect his work. I am not saying that you have to like him, nobody is forcing you to do that, but at least have respect. And animators especially deserve it, considering the amount of hard work they have to do to produce animation.

Fans need to understand why some animators draw loose drawings. It really helps during animation. Look at Samurai Champloo for eg. the designs are so loose, but at the same time the animation is very fluid.

There is no denying that the likes of Karasawa and Shimanuki have great art, and it looks better than Tate's in many cases. But Tate's animation is very fluid because of his approach, though that doesn't mean that the rest have a poor approach to animation. Different animators have different approaches and I think we need to respect that.

[JulieYBM]

Tate Naoki gets flack for being experimental because it doesn't occur to your casual board user that Japanese animation has been experimental since Day One. This is wrong and something fans should try to amend.

[JazzMazz]

1. He doesn't draw on model at all unless his work has been visibly corrected. He deviates from the character designs as much as Tate, he just does so in a different way that you personaly enjoy.(Link:viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1215973&hi ... l#p1215973)

2. Glad we could find some intersection here.

3. The character sheets are just a reference for how the characters should be drawn which animators may or may not follow. It doesn't make any sense to not allow your top talents to have creative freedoms with their work. Tate and Shida are good examples of this, as both do their own thing. Also, loads of supervisors on the show don't follow the model sheet, just look at Yuichi Karasawa and Masahiro Shimanuki.(Link:viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1215834&hi ... l#p1215834)
A noticeable amount of detail usually found in his work simply isn't in the OP. Here's some stuff from episode 95 for comparison.(Shida's OP scene is fine by the way)
[spoiler]





[/spoiler]
[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

4. Unless something like an animator speaking out suggests otherwise(such as when Ken Otsuka tweeted about how rushed he was when working on episode 39) there really isn't any reason to worry about the episode yet.

The links are to posts that already answer the questions you've asked.

I see a contradiction here:
- You praise that shida off model work and his extremely well done shading compared to his corrected work in OP, but at the same time tate is somehow good despite his oversimplified shading to zero shading at all

That brings 2 conclusions:
- We have to add off model AND appealing to the equation, shida is artistically better, his designs are more organic and corrected or uncorrected looks good, it doesn't matter if his work is touched by yamamuro or not.
- Tate is artistically unappealing, this forum has to be the only place where people prefer tate stills than yamamuro's or shimamuki's or karasawa's and just because it brings some good bits of animation in return, with him it has to exist a sacrifice, this is not the case with shida at all

Bonus opinion: I will always choose tate corrected for stills and key frames, we don't lose too much vs uncorrected art wise.

I see you invented a contradiction.

I never said I liked Shida's work for his shading, I merely used his animation in the OP as an example of corrections removing the personality from an animators work. Everything I mentioned about details directly relates to the erasure of the personality of an animators work.

Your "contradiction" doesn't exist.

Your conclusions are again, completely subjective. They are completely founded in your own personal artistic tastes. Stop stating them like they are facts.

You can like Shida and dislike Tate, but you can't say that Tate is an objectively horrible animator or his artstyle is objectively unappealing simply because you dislike him, that just comes down to your own artistic preferences.

[JazzMazz]

snip

I see a contradiction here:
- You praise that shida off model work and his extremely well done shading compared to his corrected work in OP, but at the same time tate is somehow good despite his oversimplified shading to zero shading at all

That brings 2 conclusions:
- We have to add off model AND appealing to the equation, shida is artistically better, his designs are more organic and corrected or uncorrected looks good, it doesn't matter if his work is touched by yamamuro or not.
- Tate is artistically unappealing, this forum has to be the only place where people prefer tate stills than yamamuro's or shimamuki's or karasawa's and just because it brings some good bits of animation in return, with him it has to exist a sacrifice, this is not the case with shida at all

Bonus opinion: I will always choose tate corrected for stills and key frames, we don't lose too much vs uncorrected art wise.

Completely agree, and also Tate animation itself is weird and unappealing for me because of the very rough art and the gelatinous movements.

Regarding the Shida vs Tate art, it happened something similar on DBZ, when both Masunaga and Uchiyama art usually are off-model, but Masunaga, rightfully (imo), is praised and Uchiyama is bashed. This is because Masunaga art is detailed and appealing, and Uchiyama art, even when he draw on-model, is bland in comparison.

Your first statement is fine. It's good to have your own personal preferences.

Your second point is a false equivalence. Masunaga is praised because his contributions were technically sound, Uchimaya was and still is bashed because he was bad from a technical perspective. Thats not the case with Tate and Shida.

Both Tate's and Shida's work is good from a technical perspective, it's more a matter of artistic preference that divides people.
[spoiler]I apologize for double posting.[/spoiler]

[Gashif Aldi]

TOEI Animation is the worst place for Tate to work on. With a bunch of series going on, and they just barely survived everyday. It's rare to see Tate with good animation and polished art since the designs are the opposite of his style.
Plus with time constraints it's pretty much impossible.

You can see a few cuts of episode 79 has a perfect presentation of Tate's good art, but it's unnoticeable.





And for those awkward inbetweens, it's actually possible for Tate to make it more 'subtle'(?) or natural, but he probably need to do more Key Animation or maybe the inbetweeners need to do more inbetweens which lead to time issues.

Like some of his work on Digimon Appli monsters are 400% better... No GOODER

[dhaval_dongre]

TOEI Animation is the worst place for Tate to work on. With a bunch of series going on, and they just barely survived everyday. It's rare to see Tate with good animation and polished art since the designs are the opposite of his style.
Plus with time constraints it's pretty much impossible.

You can see a few cuts of episode 79 has a perfect presentation of Tate's good art, but it's unnoticeable.





And for those awkward inbetweens, it's actually possible for Tate to make it more 'subtle'(?) or natural, but he probably need to do more Key Animation or maybe the inbetweeners need to do more inbetweens which lead to time issues.

Like some of his work on Digimon Appli monsters are 400% better... No GOODER

lol. Not true. Just have a look at his work at Toei. They are on of the better studios to work with, in Japan today. Yes Super's schedule hasn't allowed him to produce great stuff on a regular basis, but he still has done well despite of that.

Plz be more elaborate in your posts. I know you have posted better stuff before, but for one moment it seemed like an ignorant YouTube comment.