Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Shinomori » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:01 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Zamasu references Zeno in one of the manga chapters. Or perhaps it's Gowasu to him.
The manga is it's own entity.
Lord Beerus wrote:I think some people are not having a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motive. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin man who cares for the development and prosperity of the universe, Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watch Freeza terrorise most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction. Even in the manga, his scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

The moment with him him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how mortals, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilised, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilisation has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance.

Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved to a radicalism-level. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivalling gods, let alone even obtaining such power, and so recklessly challenge a God and defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an evil.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan. And never wastes an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals.

Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tear, and his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to enraged screaming and furious declarations of Godhood, ironically becoming just as destructive and violent as the mortals he wishes to exterminate.

Then even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice.

In short, Zamasu is an awesome villain. He is a fantastically written character, with many layers to him and his the better written character the franchise has ever produced.
I hear your points. Yet again if they meant to show Zamasu as being a good guy who decided to go rouge for his beliefs, they failed presenting it in a sympathetic way. From the start he wanted to get rid of mortals completely. He wanted to wipe out the barbarian race well before he saw what they would be a thousand years into the future. So for the writers, it would have been better to have shown Zamasu having a zeal to become a kaioshin, only to find out how ruthless mortals are after observing them for a time.

Ultimately again I have to say however, his plan is dumb. Its a big mess because I still don't know what exactly he was trying to accomplish. Yes, he wanted to get rid of all the mortals in the universe, or perhaps all the mortals in all the universes because he himself is from universe 10. (I still don't know what he was doing in universe 7. Though it could have been interesting if they highlighted him traveling to all the universes and killing everyone) Yet, if successful, he would have been the only creature, god or not, to exist. Sounds like a very boring existence.

Now, this is not to say I didn't enjoy his interactions with Goku and the rest. However as a character, his goals didn't seem fleshed out and they were beyond hypocritical. Someone mentioned they wanted him to come off as hypocritical, but if they wanted him to be viewed as a sympathetic figure, again I believe they failed miserably. He wanted to destroy mortals from the start, even before giving them a chance. They should have shown us his zeal for being a good kaioshin, but he was a prick from the beginning who was jealous of Goku's power.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:07 am

But more or less all of the characters in Super suffer the points you describe lol
They could all have been developed more in depth just like Trunks' SSJAsspull but Toei goes for short arcs and it does affect the story lol
Killling everyone was not his plan but a pre-requesite for his plan lol
Nevertheless you're oversimplifying the character a lot mate, he's not "jealous of Goku", he is confronted with the cold fact a human could stand up to him, a mere human, a disgusting little human lol

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Shinomori » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:30 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:But more or less all of the characters in Super suffer the points you describe lol
They could all have been developed more in depth just like Trunks' SSJAsspull but Toei goes for short arcs and it does affect the story lol
Killling everyone was not his plan but a pre-requesite for his plan lol
Nevertheless you're oversimplifying the character a lot mate, he's not "jealous of Goku", he is confronted with the cold fact a human could stand up to him, a mere human, a disgusting little human lol
I would like to know what his full plan was. Unfortunately we'll never know and that is probably the prevailing theme with this arc. You're right there doesn't seem to be a lot of development with many characters in DBS, but for guys like Trunks, he's had development in DBZ. So we pretty much know what he's about. This is not the case for Zamasu. I guess overall, his character deserved more development than what they gave him because I keep asking myself was he supposed to be a sympathetic villain?

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:35 am

Shinomori wrote: I would like to know what his full plan was.
Creating a new world in his image lol

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Shinomori » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:45 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Shinomori wrote: I would like to know what his full plan was.
Creating a new world in his image lol
Now would he have created his own creatures, because we know kaioshins have the power to create? That's something I would have loved to get more detail on, but instead all we got was Zamasu talking to himself at a mountainside villa. What ultimately ended up happening is him becoming one with the universe. That was about as picture perfect an ending a crazy guy like that could have had, seeing as his plan wasn't fleshed out to begin with. Truly making the universe in his image, literally.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:49 am

He did mention several times his dreams of utopia, too lazy to look it up but I am sure there is full quotes available lol
Him becoming the universe in the end was wtf but appeared as a latest desperate measure, also the more we approached the ending the more insane and mentally unstable he became lol

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:22 pm

What you're trying to find was a linear plot already schemed.
To me, when Zamasu kill Gowasu, he fell into madness and all coherency it's swept away.
He got a twisted vision of things, and everything was just consequences.
He's VERY different from streamlined villains so far, that have a single and clear goal.
Zamasu have a vision and act accordingly.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:04 pm

I think I get where the OP is coming from.

Zamasu is the type of villain who thinks he's righteous in purifying the world. He's like Light Yagami in Death Note: someone who has good intentions, but eventually descends into villainy and amorality, and loses track of what he intended.

The thing is, that angle would have worked in an ordinary shonen story, but in Dragon Ball, where most of the villains are contemptuous cruel killing machines (Freeza), it only serves as a motive for Zamasu to bring out his disgust for mortals and his genocidal tendencies. It should have been developed better I agree, maybe take more than one mortal race for Zamasu to lose faith in mortals, but in the end the angle served its purpose.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Ssenrof » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:19 pm

I agree. Simple stories need simple Villains. Frieza, Cell, and Buu all follow this trend.

This future trunks arc tried to create a complex villain with Zamasu, however it failed to remove itself from its Simple storytelling dragon ball style.

A God defecting and going against creation? Disatified with mortals- perfect villain considering Dragon Ball Super comes out of DBZ Battle Of Gods.

The problem? Zamasu and the other gods aren't portrayed as true gods and they come across as hypocritical pieces of shit. Zamasu is soooo bothered by mortals killing each other/not learning that he wants to bring justice. How? By killing mortals- yeah tell me how that makes sense. He wants to stop mortals from senseless violence by literally embodying senseless violence.

His motivation is complete crap, considering he revels in slaughter. He spent an entire year just slaughtering mortals for shits and giggles. Atleast mortals fight for beliefs/resources/family- Zamasu extents his conquest of earth to years instead of seconds-just because he likes mortals suffering-which doesn't make sense because his motivation is that he is upset that mortals hurt each other and suffer/are imperfect.

Trying to fix the universe- bullshit- he just had a insane bloodlust and was jealous that mortals could kill each other while he was stuck serving tea in paradise. Should have just wished for a perfect world from the "omnipotent" super dragonballs.

There is no personality difference between Gods and Mortals. if anything- mortals Seem smarter if Gowasu and Zeno are anything to go by. gods act on their whims. Zamasu has no reason to believe he is better than mortals. Especially, when mortals can become gods In Universe.

So, his character motivations are contradictory bullshit but also his Kill All Mortals Plan is total crap- Zamasu is extremely low on the God pantheon- either he is unaware of the multitude of gods greater than himself, or he just doesn't care. Is he unaware of Zeno? The Royal guards? The Grand Priest? The Universal Dragons? Whis stated that his father was top 5- wtf where those uber beings doing whole Zamasu was fucking shit up?

Either Zamasu is oblivious, doesn't care, or is delusional. This is what happens when a simple show tries to create complex villains- you get a clusterfuck of nonsense. Zamasu should have been a maikioshin. And their should be a demon pantheon waging war with the "god" pantheon. - simple and easy, while expanding the lore while maintaining a conflict that is coherent.


What was the Grand Priest doing while the entire multiversal pantheon was getting slaughtered by Zamasu? Zeno is aware when two gods of destruction host a tournament but his entire pantheon gets cleaned out and he remains oblivious? Beerus has a pet prophetic fish, and Whis not only seemingly has cosmic awareness, but can reverse time without the cosquences of time travel.

It's too stupid to think about. that Zeno is aware enough To "dismiss" a god of destruction for not destroying enough

But doesn't do anything when a God Of Creation is going around destroying shit, and fucking up the multiverse.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:30 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:"Zamasu" wasn't the main villain though.

There is a difference between Zamasu and Black. This is clearly shown when Black doesn't wish for immortality. Their difference is a bit like Piccolo and the Demon King.

Once in Goku's body, his character changed. He still held the same view, but he appreciated that power more.
There is no difference between Zamasu and Black. Black IS Zamasu. Having Goku's body doesn't make Black a different character.
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this is 1000% incorrect. The simple fact they come from different timelines and had entirely different experiences makes them two different characters alone. Similar sure...but they both had their own personality.

Best example is after the Mafuba. How so? They both had entirely different experiences. Black was not scared at all while Zamasu was crapping himself. Black even looked at Zamasu in almost disgust after.

They are no more similar than identical twins raised by different families IMO
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:18 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this is 1000% incorrect. The simple fact they come from different timelines and had entirely different experiences makes them two different characters alone. Similar sure...but they both had their own personality.

Best example is after the Mafuba. How so? They both had entirely different experiences. Black was not scared at all while Zamasu was crapping himself. Black even looked at Zamasu in almost disgust after.

They are no more similar than identical twins raised by different families IMO
Another big difference is how they carried themselves:

One wanted immortality. One just wanted to get stronger.

One tends to go into long motive rants. One didn't and could actually stay silent.

One panicked when something didn't go according to plan. Well one remained calm and grew stronger from the experience.

One hated Goku. While another one respected him, even if it was in a stalker love, hate kinda way.

Black and Zamasu are their own characters despite being the same person. I mean, no one around here calls Present Trunks and Future Trunks the same person.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:49 pm

Zamasu is kinda a bitch (like all Kaioshins except the old one) but Black's boss.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by SaiyanZ » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:54 pm

Yeah, he sucks. Definitely the worst main villain in the series. A character who hates mortals and loves his divinity shouldn't intentionally steal a mortal's body and become one, especially when there were stronger people to do that to, like Beerus or Whis or U10's GoD (who are gods). He could've easily wished for more power, or for all life to be extinguished when he used the Super Dragon Balls, instead of this "Zero Mortals" plan which doesn't even need a name because its not even a real plan. Not only that, but he keeps saying this is "the justice of the gods" to rid all life, when he's killed those same gods who have upheld their way of watching over life for many years.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Akyon » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:01 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Snip
God damn Lord Beerus; you nailed Zamasu's progression onto the dark path.

I'd say he's flawed as a character in some ways, but the worst? The worst villain backstory or goals of all villains?

Was Cell's goal to become perfect and then just blow the crap up out of the universe because it's something to do a great goal?
Buu has no goal outside complete destruction did he?
Frieza's goal was to become immortal, something Zamasu actually achieved, and rule the universe...which Zamasu did. Briefly, admittedly but he did it. Frieza's second goal was to get revenge on Goku...which Zamasu(Black) achieved when he stole Goku's body and killed his family...

...he's basically a more successful Frieza now I think about it. Even got cleaved in two by Future Trunks.

Regarding Black and Zamasu's different reactions; Zamasu is immortal which made him think he was invincible. As a result to find out someone who couldn't kill him could still put a stop to him in other ways was a huge shock to his system. Zamasu had become too arrogant with his immortal body.
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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by Nano » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:34 am

I agree, but then again I believe most of Super is horrible anyway.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by toadma » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:15 am

I think they should have deepened in Zamasu's story instead of just a god that simply hates mortals.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:58 am

IMHO bashing on Zamasu is really lame, Super has flaws alright but Zamasu is not one of them lol

The dude is a god supposedly on the good side yet he becomes a villain by excess of idealism. Sorry but that's interesting mates, and is also a first in the series (and no Majin Vegeta is not the same lol)
For once we have a villain with a true ideology, ok Freeza wanted to rule the universe but Cell and Buu basically just wanted to annihilate everything and that's it lol
Also Zamasu -and that's also for once- is 100% convinced that what he does is actually the RIGHT thing to do, who is sure that what he is doing is GOOD, as opposed to usually where villains are fully aware they are assholes, no Zamasu has a real philosophy and ideology that goes beyond the usual "I'm the strongest and evil and will kill ya all" and saying that is crap is not only uncalled for but I also want to say wtf is your problem lol

Zamasu recognizes the beauty of nature and just can't stand how humans act, and to him gods shouldn't be passive because if they don't act it means for him they are accomplice so they are sinners lol
The ideology is extreme but logical lol

Zamasu has been a first, even though there has always been ideologies in DB with good vs evil and here FOR ONCE we get a real development, with dialogues and genuine thoughts,
Usually in DB and Z you have evil knowing they are evil but here, for Zamasu HE is good and the others (Goku and co, gods etc) are the actual villains, this is a subtlety that we didn't have before and it is cool and interesting lol

What one needs to realize and ask himself is how the character is written, how he is being thought, what does he brings to the story, and Zamasu does bring many things to DB, that we didn't get before lol

In his head Zamasu is a martyr acting for good and I would even say it's the first time we get sad for a villain and regret him while the arc is over, many threads confirm this lol

So really again, of all the complaints if there is one I don't get it is the one versus Zamasu, because sorry folks, but Zamasu is allegedly the best thing Super ever produced lol

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by nato25 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:01 am

Op you answered your own question with all the who is he... etc. Hes zamasu and he thinks hes the best and he wants the whole world to himself because in his mind everyone is beneath him. He wants what he wants to psychotic levels and that causes his actions.

I think he was good at the start as well but was very closr to the tippimg point and just holding the good kai act together. A good moment that shows this is how upset he was when black killed gowasu even if he did get over it pretty quickly and then admit hed thought about it.

A bit more depth would have gone a longway and the timeline talk definetly could have been simplified (i would have liked the rules from the cell arc to not have been changed but oh well super loves to change instead of build upon for some reason but ill make a new topic on that), but the villains werent the problem in this arc i thoroughly enjoyed the both of them and their bag of tricks.

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Re: Zamasu's Goals and Backstory = Crap

Post by nato25 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:01 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:IMHO bashing on Zamasu is really lame, Super has flaws alright but Zamasu is not one of them lol

The dude is a god supposedly on the good side yet he becomes a villain by excess of idealism. Sorry but that's interesting mates, and is also a first in the series (and no Majin Vegeta is not the same lol)
For once we have a villain with a true ideology, ok Freeza wanted to rule the universe but Cell and Buu basically just wanted to annihilate everything and that's it lol
Also Zamasu -and that's also for once- is 100% convinced that what he does is actually the RIGHT thing to do, who is sure that what he is doing is GOOD, as opposed to usually where villains are fully aware they are assholes, no Zamasu has a real philosophy and ideology that goes beyond the usual "I'm the strongest and evil and will kill ya all" and saying that is crap is not only uncalled for but I also want to say wtf is your problem lol

Zamasu recognizes the beauty of nature and just can't stand how humans act, and to him gods shouldn't be passive because if they don't act it means for him they are accomplice so they are sinners lol
The ideology is extreme but logical lol

Zamasu has been a first, even though there has always been ideologies in DB with good vs evil and here FOR ONCE we get a real development, with dialogues and genuine thoughts,
Usually in DB and Z you have evil knowing they are evil but here, for Zamasu HE is good and the others (Goku and co, gods etc) are the actual villains, this is a subtlety that we didn't have before and it is cool and interesting lol

What one needs to realize and ask himself is how the character is written, how he is being thought, what does he brings to the story, and Zamasu does bring many things to DB, that we didn't get before lol

In his head Zamasu is a martyr acting for good and I would even say it's the first time we get sad for a villain and regret him while the arc is over, many threads confirm this lol

So really again, of all the complaints if there is one I don't get it is the one versus Zamasu, because sorry folks, but Zamasu is allegedly the best thing Super ever produced lol

Haha almost same time post with similar idealogy. Nice!

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