Did Toei and Toriyama Shorten the Power Scale to Allow More Competition?

[BWri]

We all know how Dragon Ball works, having come from the original series to Super. We've seen how the show has gone from an emphasis on martial arts, strategy, and technique to a show where pure power and will power determined the victors. Now Super seems to be emphasizing a mix of the two concepts. With that said, my question is do you think that the creators of DBS, Toriyama and Toei included, have unconsciously or even consciously shortened the power scale to allow fighters like Muten Roshi, Krillin, and Tenshinhan to compete?

I believe this is true for a number of reasons. In the original series and Z, if there was a massive power difference between fighters, then there was little the weaker fighter could do to overcome that difference other than solar flaring and running away. That's not the case anymore with Super and I'm pleasantly surprised. Due to Krillin's latest feats on DBS I believe a new scale is put in place and I believe it works something like this.

The old scale in DBZ would have looked like something like this with Roshi at our base tier and Super Saiyan Blue Goku at our highest tier:
1 - 1,000,000,000,000

Now in DBS, where bullets can hurt rusty fighters and Krillin can move a blinded Gohan in a fight I think the scale looks more like:
1-1000

The new scale means that someone on Roshi's level has more of a chance of hurting or pushing back a fighter of SSB Goku's level than they would have had in Z. Remember Cell tanking Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan? The power gap between them wasn't even that large. Compare that with SSB Goku vs. Krillin's beam struggle in episode 84 of DBS.

What do you all think? To me it holds up and I honestly think its a good idea in this show where power level inflation has quite frankly gotten out of hand and hurts the show in some ways. I love to see some non-saiyans get in on the action.

Oh and I'm not using this as an excuse to downplay Krillin's huge leap in power. I do think he got super strong since the last time we seen him, but even still if we were using the rules from DBZ, that strength would not be enough to move Gohan or Goku at this point. Just keeping it real.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

I would say yes and that this is a good thing.

[Lord Beerus]

If we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.

[DragonBallFoodie]

More like dispense of the power scale.

Anyway we should be getting to see some new fighters with new techniques, which will be awesome.

[TheMikado]

I honestly would have no problem with this if we stayed at Buu saga levels with SSJ3 being the ultimate.

The problem is we are in a post SSG absorbed power scale which means anyone competitive would literally HAVE to have the ability to single handedly destroy the universe.

You can't go SSG tier, then surpass it with SSB and Golden Frieza, then crank it up to SSB x KK x 10 and then say everyone is suddenly competitive again. It literally makes zero sense even in universe. Simple answer, if you knew you wanted to make Krillin and Roshi relevant again stop introducing new Super God tier forms!!! It doesn't make sense at all. It also doesn't make sense for they to keep having forms if they don't mean anything powerwise . So for instance is Krillin stronger than SSJ Gohan/Goku? Or is he weaker than their bases?? Is SSJ still a x50 multiplier? Zamasu seems to think so. Stop telling us how unimaginably powerful characters are and then telling us anyone with good techniques can take them down. Just be consistent is all I ask.

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly would have no problem with this if we stayed at Buu saga levels with SSJ3 being the ultimate.

The problem is we are in a post SSG absorbed power scale which means anyone competitive would literally HAVE to have the ability to single handedly destroy the universe.

You can't go SSG tier, then surpass it with SSB and Golden Frieza, then crank it up to SSB x KK x 10 and then say everyone is suddenly competitive again. It literally makes zero sense even in universe. Simple answer, if you knew you wanted to make Krillin and Roshi relevant again stop introducing new Super God tier forms!!! It doesn't make sense at all. It also doesn't make sense for they to keep having forms if they don't mean anything powerwise . So for instance is Krillin stronger than SSJ Gohan/Goku? Or is he weaker than their bases?? Is SSJ still a x50 multiplier? Zamasu seems to think so. Stop telling us how unimaginably powerful characters are and then telling us anyone with good techniques can take them down. Just be consistent is all I ask.

There's no way that Super would be able to work within the confines of the Majin Boo era battle power hierarchy. Not since Toriyama made Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza a thing. Plus, I disagree with the notion that good techniques can't take down very strong opponents. I like Super is experimenting in that area because it makes the narrative far less linear and predictable. I'm personally not bothered that much by how much the power scaling is affected. As long as what we get is entertaining, that's all that really matters to me.

[BWri]

I would say yes and that this is a good thing.

And I would agree.

If we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.

I never saw the need for the limits that Toriyama placed on many of his non-saiyan characters (if the limits were indeed there and not just fan canon). I get that it shows how strong the more powerful characters are, but he seems to have them break those limits when its convenient anyway. I like this new, more evened out playing field.

More like dispense of the power scale.

Anyway we should be getting to see some new fighters with new techniques, which will be awesome.

I feel that way at times, but I think they do have a vague and rough scale in play ... well, at least when Blue Trunks isn't involved

I honestly would have no problem with this if we stayed at Buu saga levels with SSJ3 being the ultimate.

The problem is we are in a post SSG absorbed power scale which means anyone competitive would literally HAVE to have the ability to single handedly destroy the universe.

You can't go SSG tier, then surpass it with SSB and Golden Frieza, then crank it up to SSB x KK x 10 and then say everyone is suddenly competitive again. It literally makes zero sense even in universe. Simple answer, if you knew you wanted to make Krillin and Roshi relevant again stop introducing new Super God tier forms!!! It doesn't make sense at all. It also doesn't make sense for they to keep having forms if they don't mean anything powerwise . So for instance is Krillin stronger than SSJ Gohan/Goku? Or is he weaker than their bases?? Is SSJ still a x50 multiplier? Zamasu seems to think so. Stop telling us how unimaginably powerful characters are and then telling us anyone with good techniques can take them down. Just be consistent is all I ask.

This is the stuff I used to bring up all the time on my blog. The more I watched Super the more I got used to its overhyping and subsequent sh***ing on of the new forms. Just look at SSB, when it's introduced it was pretty much slaughtered against Frieza's homebrewed non-god form. Normal SSB failed against Hit too (in the anime at least.) In the manga Toyotoro created a plot convenient and very poor nerf for SSB Vegeta losing so badly against Hit. The SSJ multiplier is pretty inconsistent but I'd guess to say that's its not 50 times anymore but that's only if base is super high which sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. We'll never get consistency, but I'll take it if it means other characters can actually do stuff now. Well, I can't take it seriously if Krillin completely overpowers a full powered Goku, but you get what I mean.

[Lord Beerus]

If we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.

I never saw the need for the limits that Toriyama placed on many of his non-saiyan characters (if the limits were indeed there and not just fan canon). I get that it shows how strong the more powerful characters are, but he seems to have them break those limits when its convenient anyway. I like this new, more evened out playing field..

None of the cast really have any limits. It's just been a case of Toriyama and Toei by some extension putting more emphasis on how much more special the Saiyans, aliens are Gods compared to other character.

[Simere]

I'm going to again reiterate my belief that come tournament time none of this will play a big role.

[TheMikado]

I honestly would have no problem with this if we stayed at Buu saga levels with SSJ3 being the ultimate.

The problem is we are in a post SSG absorbed power scale which means anyone competitive would literally HAVE to have the ability to single handedly destroy the universe.

You can't go SSG tier, then surpass it with SSB and Golden Frieza, then crank it up to SSB x KK x 10 and then say everyone is suddenly competitive again. It literally makes zero sense even in universe. Simple answer, if you knew you wanted to make Krillin and Roshi relevant again stop introducing new Super God tier forms!!! It doesn't make sense at all. It also doesn't make sense for they to keep having forms if they don't mean anything powerwise . So for instance is Krillin stronger than SSJ Gohan/Goku? Or is he weaker than their bases?? Is SSJ still a x50 multiplier? Zamasu seems to think so. Stop telling us how unimaginably powerful characters are and then telling us anyone with good techniques can take them down. Just be consistent is all I ask.

There's no way that Super would be able to work within the confines of the Majin Boo era battle power hierarchy. Not since Toriyama made Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza a thing. Plus, I disagree with the notion that good techniques can't take down very strong opponents. I like Super is experimenting in that area because it makes the narrative far less linear and predictable. I'm personally not bothered that much by how much the power scaling is affected. As long as what we get is entertaining, that's all that really matters to me.

If there were basing it on technique instead from the beginning it would have been fine and infinitely more interesting. I would much rather focus on technique but not at the expense of common sense.

Ok let's say for the sake of argument Goku and Krillinbare equal in base. We know that just by going SSJ4 he should be 400x stronger than Krillin. Then we have SSB which surpasses SSG, so if we wanted to low ball it severely we could say SSB is 1000x base making it just a little more than twice as strong as SSJ3. Fine. Assuming they are equal in base Goku should be able to get 1000x stronger than Krillin in an instant.
But then again they aren't equal in base, SSJ3 Gotenks was crazy strong even moreso than SSJ3 Goku, logically you could easily assume base Goku is x1000 stronger in his base than he was. So if we start at base Goku absorbing God Ki in base he could be 1000x stronger than Krillin right there, plus having the ability to get another x1000 stronger on top of that. Goku should theoretically be 1,000,000x stronger than Krillin as a SSB given the way the story is written and that makes sense seeing the BoG feats. Also it's ridiculous that Goku can also stack KK x10 for a 10,000,000x multiplier. That's literally a 1,000,000,000% power increase over his base power level previous, again assuming their bases were equal at one point.

The point I'm making is that if you're going to increase your main character's power level by 1 billion percent, and suddenly make every else competitive, it needs to be a lot more than they just worked really hard. That's why this ticks me off, the magnitude is too great to just hand wave, we aren't talking hundreds or even thousands of times power different anymore. Given what we have seen of the franchise it literally makes zero sense to increase the power gaps to that level and then suddenly say everyone is competitive, it's just plan poor writing as if a 4 year old wrote it.

[Totamo]

I'm going to again reiterate my belief that come tournament time none of this will play a big role.

What tells you that?

They are literally beating this into our head.

After the 23rd budokai tournament, the power scale became bloated and we spend half the saiyan saga watching our beloved z fighters became fodder.

[BWri]

The point I'm making is that if you're going to increase your main character's power level by 1 billion percent, and suddenly make every else competitive, it needs to be a lot more than they just worked really hard. That's why this ticks me off, the magnitude is too great to just hand wave, we aren't talking hundreds or even thousands of times power different anymore. Given what we have seen of the franchise it literally makes zero sense to increase the power gaps to that level and then suddenly say everyone is competitive, it's just plan poor writing as if a 4 year old wrote it.

The reason I created this topic was to address this exact point. I think you have to discard your notion of what we previously knew about how much the SSJ transformations increase. I don't think it's 50x, 100x, 400x, or whatever else we thought we knew before. It is, unfortunately, plot convenient with no real consistency other than one form being stronger than another. The point you made about the magnitude is exactly why I think this new scale that I mentioned is in play: 1 - 1000 instead of 1 - 1,000,000,000. If the scale existed as it had before, there's no way Krillin could even budge a Goku or Gohan who were sizing him up against universal tier threats. I think what they are subconsciously or unsubconsciously trying to do is repair the bad writing from before (Golden Frieza - Goku Black saga) by soft retconning the power gap. That's not really good writing, but I think it will improve my enjoyment of the show.

[Simere]

I'm going to again reiterate my belief that come tournament time none of this will play a big role.

What tells you that?

They are literally beating this into our head.

They're certainly repeatedly saying it's going to matter. That doesn't mean it will matter. I think it's far more likely that things are being exaggerated and overblown right now than DB suddenly deciding to change its formula. Part of that formula being to hype things that don't end up mattering, by the way.

After the 23rd budokai tournament, the power scale became bloated and we spend half the saiyan saga watching our beloved z fighters became fodder.

Funny you mention the 23rd Budokai, because that's exactly what it feels like to me. The run-up to the 23rd in the anime. So much focus spent on Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu becoming stronger to match Goku, but when it came down to it, they never had a chance.

[TheMikado]

The point I'm making is that if you're going to increase your main character's power level by 1 billion percent, and suddenly make every else competitive, it needs to be a lot more than they just worked really hard. That's why this ticks me off, the magnitude is too great to just hand wave, we aren't talking hundreds or even thousands of times power different anymore. Given what we have seen of the franchise it literally makes zero sense to increase the power gaps to that level and then suddenly say everyone is competitive, it's just plan poor writing as if a 4 year old wrote it.

The reason I created this topic was to address this exact point. I think you have to discard your notion of what we previously knew about how much the SSJ transformations increase. I don't think it's 50x, 100x, 400x, or whatever else we thought we knew before. It is, unfortunately, plot convenient with no real consistency other than one form being stronger than another. The point you made about the magnitude is exactly why I think this new scale that I mentioned is in play: 1 - 1000 instead of 1 - 1,000,000,000. If the scale existed as it had before, there's no way Krillin could even budge a Goku or Gohan who were sizing him up against universal tier threats. I think what they are subconsciously or unsubconsciously trying to do is repair the bad writing from before (Golden Frieza - Goku Black saga) by soft retconning the power gap. That's not really good writing, but I think it will improve my enjoyment of the show.

The problem is they specific reiterated the expected multiplier when Zamasu says Goku gets around several dozen times stronger as a SSJ.

[dragonballgeek]

All the ridiculous scaling would easily be fixed if they gathered all the fighters who aren't Goku and Vegeta, and Whis sends them off to a place where they can get special training for a decent amount of time. To me that just seems too obvious. Bring the bottom fighters up to a reasonable standard through special training from an Angel. Through this you could significantly close the gap in power and make everyone happy.

Maybe they're saving it for a later arc if it's ever mortals vs Dieties. I just don't understand how those people at Toei just turn a blind eye to this kind of stuff. Do they even like the show or is it just a bunch of people looking to make ends meet at work?

[KingKaash]

I'm all for giving secondary characters some love and attention and making them relevant again even if it makes no sense on a power level scale. We know that at the end of this ToP, the heavyweights like Toppo, Jiren, Hit, Vegeta and Goku will be left to duke it out so we can get the extremely powerful fighters stuff at the end. I feel like what makes a show great is not the greatness of the protagonist but how good the supporting characters are. I've always been one to be drawn towards the supporting characters because I know that the protagonist will only go through a few downs but will always win at the end. It's predictable. Secondary characters go through the struggles and it's more unpredictable if they'll win or lose which I like. So I'm all for this. And don't expect logic from the DB series!

[emperior]

The main problem right now is that Toriyama doesn't want to move on from the 10 years gap, so characters are stuck with little time to get their usual improvement. Apart from 17 which in-universe hasn't been seen since Cell Games, everyone gets powered up in few days, while since the very beginning of the serie (21st Budokai Tenkaichi) characters have always had a reasonable amount of time to train and improve. If Gohan jumps up tiers without going into the RoSaT in these remaining 37 hours before the tournament, I'm going to call it bullshit. I would prefer if he gets a new form through rage at the tournament (like Future Trunks) than seeing him get powered up to SSG+ levels in 37 hours of training with Piccolo.

[Commodore Krevin]

All the ridiculous scaling would easily be fixed if they gathered all the fighters who aren't Goku and Vegeta, and Whis sends them off to a place where they can get special training for a decent amount of time. To me that just seems too obvious. Bring the bottom fighters up to a reasonable standard through special training from an Angel. Through this you could significantly close the gap in power and make everyone happy.

Maybe they're saving it for a later arc if it's ever mortals vs Dieties. I just don't understand how those people at Toei just turn a blind eye to this kind of stuff. Do they even like the show or is it just a bunch of people looking to make ends meet at work?

That certainly isn't a bad idea, and would love to see it happen, but, at least to an extent, I'd argue the power scale itself needs/needed to be tweaked and reworked. Otherwise we'll be in the exact same mess when Goku runs up against Jiren or whomever and has to pull out an even more powerful transformed state in order to power through.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin

[BlueBasilisk]

It doesn't help that the human characters all but dropped off the radar after Namek and the rest after the Cell games. Many of them just gave up fighting because they didn't feel like they could keep up with the Super Saiyans and they've never done the limit busting hard core training the Saiyans did. I'm perfectly fine with the non-Saiyans having some sort of epiphany and blowing past their previous limitations. Never bothered me when Goku, Gohan or Vegeta did it.

[Guesswhoo]

I'm pretty sure Toriyama has nothing to do with the actual power level problem, remember Goku going toe to toe against Buutenks in the anime ? Krillin and Yamcha shitting on Cell tier character one day after dying ? The King of Kai who was hyped up to be really strong during the otherworld arc ( the reveal of him being fodder to the kaioshin we know was a shock for me ) ?
It is all Toei being Toei:
Character who were totally left behind power level-wise in DBZ are playing role in the next arc ? ---Just make them stronger .
How will we explain that ? Off screen training obviously