Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

[Zamasu55]

Piccolo and Gohan should definitely be below Freeza. Based on feats, the Universal arc synopsis and Toei's bio's Kuririn should be above Tenshinhan.

Krillin is indeed stronger than Tien.

[larzooma]

Piccolo was weaker than first form Frieza in RoF. There is no way he is above golden Frieza. Also he isn't ssj3 Goku level, he isn't even ssj Goku level, and possibly not even base Goku level (depending on the writer that episode).
Also Frieza was stronger than Goku in RoF. Goku probably caught up to him in the U6 arc, and surpassed him in the Black arc. He isn't that far ahead imo without kaioken. But we'll see next episode.

Did anyone watch 88? Piccolo decimated a SSJ2 Gohan, and Gohan was around equal to Goku in 90 in their base form. Given SSJ2 is a multiplier, Piccolo would have had a similar result fighting Goku. People are focusing on outdated arcs. Goku trained for 3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to U6. He would have outclassed Frieza before the events of the tournament. Forget everything afterwards, including a lot more training and zenkai boosts.

Erm, did u watch episode 90? Base Goku overpowered Piccolo's demon wave attack. Also, the Gohan that fought Goku in ep 90 is far more powerful than the one Piccolo fought in ep 88. Gohan in ep 88 was Buu saga era ssj2 level, after he went Mystic he got his power vs Buu back and Piccolo got his arm ripped off just by touching Gohan. Then Gohan gets much much stronger and can go toe to toe with ssj2 Goku and can rival ssj blue Goku once Gohan uses his full power.

The scaling is like this kk ssj blue Goku>ssj blue Goku=(rivals)Mystic Gohan(Full Power)>ssj2 Goku=Mystic Gohan(Holding back)>> base Goku>Buutenks/Buuhan>Mystic Gohan(Z)>>Piccolo(ep 88)>ssj2 Gohan(ep 88).

Ofc Piccolo could have gotten stronger like Gohan, however he did not show it in ep 90.

1. Piccolo and Gohan were trying out one of their coordinated moves. The wave was a distraction to push Goku back, while Gohan came in afterwards to punch him out. Not to mention, Goku said the wave itself almost took him out. Definitely not an example of his overall power.

2. If Gohan increased that much from 88 to 90, he did so by sparring with Piccolo in his Ultimate form for hours and hours. After which, Piccolo did not require his sensu bean to recover before the 2 vs 2.

3. Piccolo clearly set up the entire scenario with his arm to show Gohan one of his main weaknesses. It was part of his training.

When Piccolo faced Gohan in SSJ2, his power was at a level high enough to allow his Ultimate Transformation shortly after his choke out. He was clearly above him in terms of power until his transformation, and given the hours they spent training together, Piccolo possessed enough power to continue to challenge Gohan to improve for his fight in 90. Not to mention, we've yet to see Piccolo go all out to fully keep up with an opponent, friend or foe. Most of his interaction with Ultimate Gohan happened off-screen, and like I said, the brief interaction on screen was a lesson.

SSJB KK > SSJB Goku = (Full Power) Ultimate Gohan > Ultimate Gohan (suppressed) > Ultimate Gohan = SSJ2 Goku > Base Goku = Base Gohan

If Piccolo easily contested a SSJ2 Gohan, and Gohan equaled Goku in base form, then Piccolo would have had the same success against SSJ2 Goku (given it's a multiplier on their base form). Piccolo is clearly above current SSJ2 Goku/Gohan, and based on their extended time training, around equal to Ultimate Gohan (suppressed), which given Goku most likely goes full force as SSJB against Ultimate Gohan at his full strength, puts him around SSJ3 Goku level. True, I'm basing some of my head canon on off-screen training, but I can also argue we saw him clearly above SSJ2 Gohan, and have yet to see him use his full power, which falls somewhere between Ultimate Gohan and (Full Power) Ultimate Gohan. I don't think he's close to Full power, and I think he's above Ultimate, so I'm putting him at suppressed or SSJ3 level.

[gofishus]

Why do people think #17 is ahead of Golden Frieza? I'm not even sure if its been established that #17 is on SSB level.. they only had that one sparring fight where Goku wasn't really using his full power. Compare that to Goku actually losing against Golden Frieza in his SSB form and only beat Frieza because he never mastered his Golden form. if Frieza kept up his Golden form and trained it more he would actually be higher than SSB... so how is #17 ahead of that?

[larzooma]

Why do people think #17 is ahead of Golden Frieza? I'm not even sure if its been established that #17 is on SSB level.. they only had that one sparring fight where Goku wasn't really using his full power. Compare that to Goku actually losing against Golden Frieza in his SSB form and only beat Frieza because he never mastered his Golden form. if Frieza kept up his Golden form and trained it more he would actually be higher than SSB... so how is #17 ahead of that?

For one, Goku's had years of training since the RoF arc, and his SSJB form is much more powerful than when he faced Frieza. Goku was forced to transform to keep up with 17, and he pushed himself somewhat during the battle, only to end in a draw, given they were both hiding a good amount of power. If they started to move into those levels, they risked harming the island during the fight. Despite Goku making considerable gains since RoF, Frieza is trapped in a cocoon, and hasn't increased in power at all. Given 17 is on the level with a somewhat engaged SSJB Goku, and still has an unknown level of power hidden, puts him well above Frieza. We all know Golden form Frieza is a beast, but he was a contender during an earlier time in the DBS timeline. The characters have gone through a lot since the events of RoF, with Goku and Vegeta leading the pack in terms of training, battling some of the most powerful fighters in the multiverse, and mastering the form they newly discovered when facing Frieza.

[larzooma]

Why do people think #17 is ahead of Golden Frieza? I'm not even sure if its been established that #17 is on SSB level.. they only had that one sparring fight where Goku wasn't really using his full power. Compare that to Goku actually losing against Golden Frieza in his SSB form and only beat Frieza because he never mastered his Golden form. if Frieza kept up his Golden form and trained it more he would actually be higher than SSB... so how is #17 ahead of that?

For one, Goku's had years of training since the RoF arc, and his SSJB form is much more powerful than when he faced Frieza. Goku was forced to transform to keep up with 17, and he pushed himself somewhat during the battle, only to end in a draw, given they were both hiding a good amount of power. If they started to move into those levels, they risked harming the island during the fight. Despite Goku making considerable gains since RoF, Frieza is trapped in a cocoon, and hasn't increased in power at all. Given 17 is on the level with a somewhat engaged SSJB Goku, and still has an unknown level of power hidden, puts him well above Frieza. We all know Golden form Frieza is a beast, but he was a contender during an earlier time in the DBS timeline. The characters have gone through a lot since the events of RoF, with Goku and Vegeta leading the pack in terms of training, battling some of the most powerful fighters in the multiverse, and mastering the form they newly discovered when facing Frieza.

I've had my fare share of arguments whether Gohan surpassed Frieza in terms of power, but I think it's a safe bet he's stronger at this point. I've had more than my fare share of resistance, when I argue Piccolo should be above Frieza on the U7 power list after the events of 88 and 90, which I will argue until shown otherwise despite the many detractors. Out of the three, 17 is the character I firmly put above Frieza. We saw a clear demonstration of his power relative to Goku, and we have no idea how much he kept hidden during the fight. If they were in the middle of the desert, he could have kept up with him at full power SSJB for all we know.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Why do people think #17 is ahead of Golden Frieza? I'm not even sure if its been established that #17 is on SSB level.. they only had that one sparring fight where Goku wasn't really using his full power. Compare that to Goku actually losing against Golden Frieza in his SSB form and only beat Frieza because he never mastered his Golden form. if Frieza kept up his Golden form and trained it more he would actually be higher than SSB... so how is #17 ahead of that?

For one, Goku's had years of training since the RoF arc, and his SSJB form is much more powerful than when he faced Frieza. Goku was forced to transform to keep up with 17, and he pushed himself somewhat during the battle, only to end in a draw, given they were both hiding a good amount of power. If they started to move into those levels, they risked harming the island during the fight. Despite Goku making considerable gains since RoF, Frieza is trapped in a cocoon, and hasn't increased in power at all. Given 17 is on the level with a somewhat engaged SSJB Goku, and still has an unknown level of power hidden, puts him well above Frieza. We all know Golden form Frieza is a beast, but he was a contender during an earlier time in the DBS timeline. The characters have gone through a lot since the events of RoF, with Goku and Vegeta leading the pack in terms of training, battling some of the most powerful fighters in the multiverse, and mastering the form they newly discovered when facing Frieza.

Goku has been forced to use SSB,ONLY proof that 17 is above SSJ3.
That's all we have.

Goku said he was holding onto SSB. You can not define how much power he was using.

17 was also retaining power,but we also do not know how much. Goku himself may have insured himself much more.
We simply do not have enough evidence to state that it is SSB level.

Same thing with Gohan. He said he was using all his power and even though he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2.

It is even said by chiaotzu '' then this is a serious battle between Saiyajins ''

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He was wearing 0.00000000001% against Goku SSJ2, and when his father used SSB he suddenly uses all the power and manages to match him?Has he lied about using all his power? That does not make sense.
In 5 seconds of fighting it is not possible to say that Gohan is level Goku SSB, even more because we do not know if Goku fought seriously in that way (Goku was only with all his power when using SSB + Kaioken), and Gohan was being pressed By Goku SSJ2

[larzooma]

Why do people think #17 is ahead of Golden Frieza? I'm not even sure if its been established that #17 is on SSB level.. they only had that one sparring fight where Goku wasn't really using his full power. Compare that to Goku actually losing against Golden Frieza in his SSB form and only beat Frieza because he never mastered his Golden form. if Frieza kept up his Golden form and trained it more he would actually be higher than SSB... so how is #17 ahead of that?

For one, Goku's had years of training since the RoF arc, and his SSJB form is much more powerful than when he faced Frieza. Goku was forced to transform to keep up with 17, and he pushed himself somewhat during the battle, only to end in a draw, given they were both hiding a good amount of power. If they started to move into those levels, they risked harming the island during the fight. Despite Goku making considerable gains since RoF, Frieza is trapped in a cocoon, and hasn't increased in power at all. Given 17 is on the level with a somewhat engaged SSJB Goku, and still has an unknown level of power hidden, puts him well above Frieza. We all know Golden form Frieza is a beast, but he was a contender during an earlier time in the DBS timeline. The characters have gone through a lot since the events of RoF, with Goku and Vegeta leading the pack in terms of training, battling some of the most powerful fighters in the multiverse, and mastering the form they newly discovered when facing Frieza.

Goku has been forced to use SSB,ONLY proof that 17 is above SSJ3.
That's all we have.

Goku said he was holding onto SSB. You can not define how much power he was using.

17 was also retaining power,but we also do not know how much. Goku himself may have insured himself much more.
We simply do not have enough evidence to state that it is SSB level.

Same thing with Gohan. He said he was using all his power and even though he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2.
He was wearing 0.00000000001% against Goku SSJ2, and when his father used SSB he suddenly uses all the power and manages to match him? That does not make sense.
In 5 seconds of fighting it is not possible to say that Gohan is level Goku SSB, even more because we do not know if Goku fought seriously in that way (Goku was only with all his power when using SSB + Kaioken), and Gohan was being pressed By Goku SSJ2

How much clearer do you want a fight, during which one character's level of power necessitates the other character to transform to keep challenging him. This includes an explicit dialogue stating 17's surprising power forced Goku to transform, despite going into the fight with the assumption he wouldn't have to go that far to test his ability. They do a fare bit of back and forth with Goku in SSJB, with the conversation after the draw clearly indicating 17 pushed Goku to use a greater amount of his power than he planned. If stating "hey buddy you really pushed me to a level of SSJB, I didn't think you were capable of prior to our fight" wasn't enough to solidify 17 as blue level, they cap it off with the two having a good laugh that despite the high level used during the fight, they both kept an undisclosed amount of power hidden.

Gohan on the other hand was a different fight, as they continued to go head to head, Gohan's power kept going up, allowing him to start to turn the fight. When he starts, he claims to be at full power, but he's only keeping up with SSJ2 Goku. I consider this low level Ultimate Gohan. Eventually, he starts to increase his power and you can clearly see him start to take control of Goku in his current form. I consider Gohan to be "suppressed" Ultimate Gohan, clearly above SSJ2, but barely strong enough to keep up with blue. As he demands his father use his full power, you see him increase even further as he approaches, finally reaching his "full power" Ultimate Form. I have to go back and check myself, but a reputable source confirmed Gohan actually says something like now I'm at my full power. During the brief exchange with his father at fully powered SSJB, Gohan starts going blow for blow, until Goku decides to really show his son what true power means, and completely outclasses him with SSJB KK.

The fight was as much a training experience as anything, and Ultimate form is almost more mental than physical, in terms of accessing and using a certain level of power. Challenging his father and holding his own, allowed Gohan to push himself forward mentally, allowing him to steadily gain access to his full potential. The Ultimate Gohan at the start of the fight isn't lying when he says he's at full power, but as the fight progresses he finds there's more in the well, than he thought. Ending in what I can imagine is one of the most satisfying ass whoopings Gohan's received in his life. Between Piccolo's teaching and initial challenge to keep Gohan progressing, and the motivation to reach a new plateau, which only challenging and matching Goku could inspire, Gohan reached the level both of them knew he was capable of reaching. Gohan by the end of 90 can challenge SSJB Goku when he has access to his full power in Ultimate form. Unless 17 is really hiding a good amount of power, Gohan surpassed him by the end of 90, putting him in third on the U7 list.

[larzooma]

People are looking at their fight in the wrong way. Goku was filling as much of a role as trainer, as Piccolo did in 88. One master gave him the insight to focus his mind enough to gain the form, and the other gave him the proper motivation to fully realize the extent of his power.

Geekdom101 actually has a good video about the mental aspect of martial arts, and how it plays into Gohan's ability to access his power while in Ultimate Form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0L77Fkz-yE&t=273s.

Gohan's always had the potential inside, which he wasn't able to come close to accessing for physical reasons prior to getting his body in fighting shape, and couldn't access mentally until Piccolo set his mind in the right state to focus on bringing out the power to allow him to unleash his potential. As much Piccolo was the right man to set his mind straight, Goku was the right man to push Gohan to understand the true power at his disposal. The ability to challenge his father in his ultimate form, drove Gohan to steadily tap into even greater depths of his potential, which you can see as the fight progresses. Gohan doesn't start falling back, gasping for air, while he tries to summon the strength to go on. He continues to fight, until you can see the point where the tides turn in his favor.

[TheSaiyanGod]

For one, Goku's had years of training since the RoF arc, and his SSJB form is much more powerful than when he faced Frieza. Goku was forced to transform to keep up with 17, and he pushed himself somewhat during the battle, only to end in a draw, given they were both hiding a good amount of power. If they started to move into those levels, they risked harming the island during the fight. Despite Goku making considerable gains since RoF, Frieza is trapped in a cocoon, and hasn't increased in power at all. Given 17 is on the level with a somewhat engaged SSJB Goku, and still has an unknown level of power hidden, puts him well above Frieza. We all know Golden form Frieza is a beast, but he was a contender during an earlier time in the DBS timeline. The characters have gone through a lot since the events of RoF, with Goku and Vegeta leading the pack in terms of training, battling some of the most powerful fighters in the multiverse, and mastering the form they newly discovered when facing Frieza.

Goku has been forced to use SSB,ONLY proof that 17 is above SSJ3.
That's all we have.

Goku said he was holding onto SSB. You can not define how much power he was using.

17 was also retaining power,but we also do not know how much. Goku himself may have insured himself much more.
We simply do not have enough evidence to state that it is SSB level.

Same thing with Gohan. He said he was using all his power and even though he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2.
He was wearing 0.00000000001% against Goku SSJ2, and when his father used SSB he suddenly uses all the power and manages to match him? That does not make sense.
In 5 seconds of fighting it is not possible to say that Gohan is level Goku SSB, even more because we do not know if Goku fought seriously in that way (Goku was only with all his power when using SSB + Kaioken), and Gohan was being pressed By Goku SSJ2

How much clearer do you want a fight, during which one character's level of power necessitates the other character to transform to keep challenging him. This includes an explicit dialogue stating 17's surprising power forced Goku to transform, despite going into the fight with the assumption he wouldn't have to go that far to test his ability. They do a fare bit of back and forth with Goku in SSJB, with the conversation after the draw clearly indicating 17 pushed Goku to use a greater amount of his power than he planned. If stating "hey buddy you really pushed me to a level of SSJB, I didn't think you were capable of prior to our fight" wasn't enough to solidify 17 as blue level, they cap it off with the two having a good laugh that despite the high level used during the fight, they both kept an undisclosed amount of power hidden.

Gohan on the other hand was a different fight, as they continued to go head to head, Gohan's power kept going up, allowing him to start to turn the fight. When he starts, he claims to be at full power, but he's only keeping up with SSJ2 Goku. I consider this low level Ultimate Gohan. Eventually, he starts to increase his power and you can clearly see him start to take control of Goku in his current form. I consider Gohan to be "suppressed" Ultimate Gohan, clearly above SSJ2, but barely strong enough to keep up with blue. As he demands his father use his full power, you see him increase even further as he approaches, finally reaching his "full power" Ultimate Form. I have to go back and check myself, but a reputable source confirmed Gohan actually says something like now I'm at my full power. During the brief exchange with his father at fully powered SSJB, Gohan starts going blow for blow, until Goku decides to really show his son what true power means, and completely outclasses him with SSJB KK.

The fight was as much a training experience as anything, and Ultimate form is almost more mental than physical, in terms of accessing and using a certain level of power. Challenging his father and holding his own, allowed Gohan to push himself forward mentally, allowing him to steadily gain access to his full potential. The Ultimate Gohan at the start of the fight isn't lying when he says he's at full power, but as the fight progresses he finds there's more in the well, than he thought. Ending in what I can imagine is one of the most satisfying ass whoopings Gohan's received in his life. Between Piccolo's teaching and initial challenge to keep Gohan progressing, and the motivation to reach a new plateau, which only challenging and matching Goku could inspire, Gohan reached the level both of them knew he was capable of reaching. Gohan by the end of 90 can challenge SSJB Goku when he has access to his full power in Ultimate form. Unless 17 is really hiding a good amount of power, Gohan surpassed him by the end of 90, putting him in third on the U7 list.

Because 17 having Goku using SSB means that the android is divine level? Goku has no transformation below blue and above 3 (in the anime he does not use SSG), so if 17 is above SSJ3, he will have to use SSB anyway. He is just above the SSJ3, we have NO confirmation that he would be able to keep up against Goku SSB Full Power. So you can not put him on that level, just above SSJ3.

Can you bring me evidence of Gohan increasing his power during the fight? If so, he would have defeated Boo Gotenks. At no time was it said that he increased his power, he was using his full power and this is shown by the lines of Chiaotzu and Gohan himself. Where did he "get over" Goku SSJ2? The fight was level, no Gohan time was superior. He just threw up in the end, does not mean anything. Goku ONLY used the SSB because Gohan asked, before that he had no clue that he would use it. Again, we can not state that gohan is level SSB, he was matched with Goku SSJ2 using all his power

[GodKaio-Ken]

I’ve attempted to argue Frieza’s power is overrated, given the time lapse since RoF, but people still rank him in the top 3.

Barring a new level of disregarding power scaling by the writers, will people start to apply some new head canon to reassess the Universe 7 list, If Goku and Frieza spar, and as I predict, Goku wrecks him. A poor showing by Frieza, coupled with what we’ve seen over the recruitment episodes, is there a chance people will finally move Frieza out of third. At the very least, consider Gohan and 17 above him in power. Even Piccolo, I argue is around current SSJ3 Goku level after 88 and 90, which means he would have pushed Goku to go SSJB in a similar spar to 17, given SSJ3 probably rivals the power of a suppressed SSJB with obvious drawbacks making it an obsolete transformation. Even keeping up with Goku as SSJB suppressed with his current power, puts 17, Gohan, and Piccolo above Frieza, who kept up with a fully powered SSJB Goku and Vegeta at the infancy of the transformation. Since RoF, Goku trained for years (3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time alone), fighting Goku Black, Zamasu, Hit, Toppo, etc. While, given his imprisonment in the cocoon, hasn’t gained an ounce of power.

I truly believe the list should be:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gohan
4.17/Piccolo
5. Frieza
6.18
7. Tien
8. Krillin
9. Roshi

I think the only person than has surpassed RoF Frieza is Gohan.

I have a feeling 17 is much weaker than the episode actually made him out to appear. No way he is actually SSB level and people take these spars too literally.

I cant see Piccolo being ahead either.

[LowRyder2005]

Honestly, taking these latest episodes' implications as anything worth scrutinizing is for the most part a futile exercise; the only thing those more or less clearly show is that Toei ended up throwing whether semblance of power "hierarchy" the manga/anime had before out of the window in favor of the writing necessities of the upcoming battle royale.

As I said in the power-related thread I wouldn't even put my money on these characters being intended as jumping realms and realms of power on their own. At least from a narrative point of view, they haven't been acknowledged as doing anything different than some "regular" or even "average" (by the show's updated standards in which Whis' regime could be determined to be the most effective way to gain power) training.

Gohan, Piccolo, 17? I feel like they could by all means be intended to be "stronger" but definitely not specifically as strong as some people try to make them to be. Well, I'm also a little envious as to how it is not detrimental to these people's enjoyment of the show if one like Piccolo suddenly reaches the apparently unfathomable/unreachable/unconceivable Super Saiyan God level with some random, off-screen training which is never brought as an even mildly relevant plot point.
At bare minimum, the writing will still have them able to land some hits on whoever stands before them regardless. Rule of cool or if the fighting coreography looks nice are as substantial reasons as any, apparently. At least with Golden Freeza the premises were perceived as ill-conceived, but the execution made him look like believable. With #17 and Gohan, people who have had some semblance of a fight with Super Saiyan Blue Goku everything is lacking but some (feeble) visual cue.

That being said, I think most people here would actually agree that Goku easily beating the tar out of Freeza would be the most natural progression. On the other hand, though, I'd predict some fighting on "equal-ish" terms in which Goku will come on top... basically Super's own gold standard.

[batistabus]

I think a tier list would be more useful in this scenario. Order within tiers isn't meant to be significant.

This first list is based off of everything we've seen before the ToP arc, and isn't influenced by what I suspect has been a Toei-created mini arc:

[spoiler]S Tier:
Son Goku
Vegeta

A Tier:
Freeza

B Tier: This tier assumes at least some training on Gohan's part. If Gohan has fully retained his Elder Kaioshin unlocked form, he is in his own tier between Freeza and Boo. If he has not trained at all, he is in a tier between Boo and the current C tier.
Son Gohan
Boo

C Tier:
Piccolo
No. 17
No. 18

D Tier:
Tenshinhan
Kuririn

E Tier:
Kame-sen'nin[/spoiler]

If I were to base the list on what we've seen from the anime so far, it'd look more like:

[spoiler]SS Tier:
Son Goku

S Tier:
Vegeta

A Tier:
Freeza

B Tier:
Son Gohan

C Tier:
No.17
Boo

D Tier:
Piccolo
No. 18
Kuririn

E Tier:
Kame-sen'nin

F Tier:
Tenshinhan[/spoiler]

Even if Goku manages to absolutely wipe the floor with Freeza in this filler episode, I still believe Freeza is leagues above everyone below him.

[Muffin Man]

I don't think tier lists even matter anymore, they're just too much in flux. Freeza could become stronger than Goku by training a few hours, then Gohan could become stronger than Frieza by training a few hours, then Vegeta could become stronger than Gohan by training a few hours, etc. They could be in any relation to eachother given the time of day.