Kienzan use ( bad writing )

[DainIronfoot]

Youre only derailing the value of yourself. I have no idea who you are. But I see that some how I made such an impression that you come here looking to incite conflict instead of talking about the subject. I'm very pro Tien but I've never made negative topics on Krillin. And anything I say is not a hate vendetta. Its based on facts. If I say Krillins Toei profile says he has a cowardly way about him. Thats not hate. That's using facts to make my point. Only topics I've made or subjects I've been involved in is Tenshinhans alien ancestry, Akira stating hes not human, Tiens voice actor saying hes not human and analyzing a statement for Krillin that is very vague. I had a topic locked because I brought up the question and fact that 17 and 18 are Earthlings, and have been referred to as modified humans. So how can Krillin be the strongest Earthling? Those are examples of what I've discussed. This is exactly why there is such hate between both sides. Because look how defensive and hateful you got in a topic that was not putting down the character. SMH

Just as expected, you deny everything (and seem to either forget the facts or you don't want to bring them up. You've been warned about your posts many times, it's literally on here to see lol). It's like I mentioned in my post. There is no reason to continue because you'll simply dodge everything. If you want to discuss further, you can send a PM.

[Simere]

It is a fact because it can't be contradicted within the manga. The argument people are offering is "they didn't tell us it can cut anything." OK then, they also didn't tell us it had limits. Now this empty argument has been made void by me applying the same logic.

It doesn't make it a fact just because it wasn't contradicted. I really don't understand why you would say that. And that "empty argument" isn't voided merely because you can fallaciously turn it around; the point remains that it wasn't definitively stated, and the burden of proof remains on you. You can use the absence of evidence in your argument if you want, but again, that doesn't transform it into a fact.

What is truly absurd is ignoring tangible proof and call everything else than one's person idea, fanon.

Is anyone ignoring the evidence? We're all well aware of it. It's strong evidence. But it's a massive leap of logic anyone should be able to see to declare the implication of evidence as fact. There will always be an inseparable divide between the two. And that leap of logic is absolutely fanon.

[Cetra]

This is also BS because the same attack didn't do nothing to Perfect Cell.

Yes, but fans think they have the magical power to disregard filler as their opinion is worth more than at least an official episode.

I'm not ignoring that at all, I'm just not referencing it because this forum itself frowns upon using filler as evidence but since you brought it up the specific context was that Krillin was using his more powerful and dangerous techniques, a technique known to have sliced clean through Frieza. The narrative and intent, correct or not was to show how enormous the gap was between Krillin and the rest and Cell such that there was literal NOTHING they could have done against him. And it worked, it heightened the tension, and Krillin NEVER attacked Cell again on his own. Because it would have been completely ineffective.

In Super by contrast he throws it and we have no idea where it went, if it landed, it was basically tossed away. But, going by filler, if the enemies they currently are facing are strong enough to tank that technique, that means the gap between MUST be greater than the gap between Krillin in Frieza in order to follow the same narrative rules you just pointed out, AND as such Krillin shouldn't be able to fight those same characters AT ALL due to that gap in power.... but he will next week because whoever wrote it assumed that was Krillins only signature move and didn't seem to realize the context or properties of it or why it's special and has the group tank it like any other ordinary ki blast. If you're going to go through the trouble of getting weaker fighters due to their special inherit abilities, at least read up on why those abilities your were touting as being the reason they were selected in the first place are special. Don't grab a character just because and then misuse them and their special techniques. Especially a character and technique with as much history as Krillins.

The post was not about you in particular. I answered FortuneSSJ's question because LightBing ignores the filler to make his own argument stronger and it is his only way to continue saying "it was never shown" and therefore continues to just call the manga part alone "proof". Which is not really the way to go and extremely sloppy. I did not know if you did not mention it because of the same reasoning but seeing how FortuneSSJ responded to you it simply did fit the flow.

[Kogu 87]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

[Arg]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

I would like to think so, just waiting for some in episode confirmation, or atleast have some flashback how botamo tanked the rest.

[Krillin1994]

We don't see the trajectory of it we don't know he wasn't trying to cut a hole or maybe herd them into the firing line of the other guys' attacks

[TKA]

Your example does not hold any weight because heavy armor does not make you invincible and would be entirely inappropriate for hand to hand fighting since you would still feel the kinetic force behind the blows. It would help you against slashing and piercing attacks but that's about it, and we don't know how dense the alloy is to make the armor , but if it's the strongest metal in the world I would bet dollars to donuts it would end up slowing you down.

Vegeta's lightweight elastic armor is more appropriate for battle because it's designed to protect you from projectiles weapons and allows him to keep his speed. speaking of that why on earth was he allowed to wear that for the tournament does that not count as cheating?

Uhm, sure.

You missed the point though.

Except I'm not applying logic. I'm just stating what's in the manga,

Yes, you are. No, you're not.

What's in the manga is Krillin cutting Frieza with the Kienzan and Nappa almost getting killed by it. That's all. The implication that it can cut through anything is PURE fanon. You're saying the anime is wrong for portraying it failing, but that isn't at all at odds with what's in the manga. That's where your "logic" comes in. "It's limits have never been established, therefore it has no limits." That's an insane notion.

[TheMikado]

^ fine, the manga has portrayed it can cut through any living being regardless of the gap in power levels. Thus enemies of similar or even much higher power levels should be affected by it. If Krillin is able to fight any of those enemies on par or slightly below his attack should have hit as it has in the past barring some special ability which the writers couldn't even bother to show.

[TheMikado]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

The problem is we haven't seen it in any other usage other than to kill, the exception being Piccolo vs Frost which is still contained within Super, but even Frost says that could have killed him so it's obviously a killing technique and not something they use lightly or haphazardly, and certainly makes even less sense to use in a tournament with a no killing rule.

[Kogu 87]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

The problem is we haven't seen it in any other usage other than to kill, the exception being Piccolo vs Frost which is still contained within Super, but even Frost says that could have killed him so it's obviously a killing technique and not something they use lightly or haphazardly, and certainly makes even less sense to use in a tournament with a no killing rule.

In the case of Piccolo, the fact that the attack needs such a large charge time to pierce / destroy its target proves that it could be far less devastating if fired immediately (like we saw last episode).

As for the kienzan, we know 2 things:

1- ki shape can be manipulated, ki swords, spears, balls and razer sharp discs have all been seen in both manga and anime. It is not at all out of the question for krillin to dull the edges/reduce the power of his attacks this episode.

2- Krillin is intelligent, and would in no way use an ability that could only kill an opponent in a tournament setting and risk getting disqualified.

[Roronoa-pt]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

The problem is we haven't seen it in any other usage other than to kill, the exception being Piccolo vs Frost which is still contained within Super, but even Frost says that could have killed him so it's obviously a killing technique and not something they use lightly or haphazardly, and certainly makes even less sense to use in a tournament with a no killing rule.

In the case of Piccolo, the fact that the attack needs such a large charge time to pierce / destroy its target proves that it could be far less devastating if fired immediately (like we saw last episode).

As for the kienzan, we know 2 things:

1- ki shape can be manipulated, ki swords, spears, balls and razer sharp discs have all been seen in both manga and anime. It is not at all out of the question for krillin to dull the edges/reduce the power of his attacks this episode.

2- Krillin is intelligent, and would in no way use an ability that could only kill an opponent in a tournament setting and risk getting disqualified.

We've seen Cell 1st form firing makkankosappo against Piccolo and he dealt with that like it was nothing. Same for SSJ2 Gohan against Perfect Cell. Cell didn't fully charge the makkankosappo like Piccolo did against Frost & Raditz. The technique isn't impressive if you don't charge it and the series demonstrate just that.

[TheMikado]

The problem is we haven't seen it in any other usage other than to kill, the exception being Piccolo vs Frost which is still contained within Super, but even Frost says that could have killed him so it's obviously a killing technique and not something they use lightly or haphazardly, and certainly makes even less sense to use in a tournament with a no killing rule.

In the case of Piccolo, the fact that the attack needs such a large charge time to pierce / destroy its target proves that it could be far less devastating if fired immediately (like we saw last episode).

As for the kienzan, we know 2 things:

1- ki shape can be manipulated, ki swords, spears, balls and razer sharp discs have all been seen in both manga and anime. It is not at all out of the question for krillin to dull the edges/reduce the power of his attacks this episode.

2- Krillin is intelligent, and would in no way use an ability that could only kill an opponent in a tournament setting and risk getting disqualified.

We've seen Cell 1st form firing makkankosappo against Piccolo and he dealt with that like it was nothing. Same for SSJ2 Gohan against Perfect Cell. Cell didn't fully charge the makkankosappo like Piccolo did against Frost & Raditz. The technique isn't impressive if you don't charge it and the series demonstrate just that.

Except that's not correct, in every instance the "drill" edge hasn't been allowed to hit and has been swatted away. Further when Gohan caught the keizan he obviously did NOT touch the edges which implies that he would have been cut through. Enemies don't just take those attacks head on because of the special properties... unless you want to count filler...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x4gHZP4xRPM

[Cetra]

In the case of Piccolo, the fact that the attack needs such a large charge time to pierce / destroy its target proves that it could be far less devastating if fired immediately (like we saw last episode).

As for the kienzan, we know 2 things:

1- ki shape can be manipulated, ki swords, spears, balls and razer sharp discs have all been seen in both manga and anime. It is not at all out of the question for krillin to dull the edges/reduce the power of his attacks this episode.

2- Krillin is intelligent, and would in no way use an ability that could only kill an opponent in a tournament setting and risk getting disqualified.

We've seen Cell 1st form firing makkankosappo against Piccolo and he dealt with that like it was nothing. Same for SSJ2 Gohan against Perfect Cell. Cell didn't fully charge the makkankosappo like Piccolo did against Frost & Raditz. The technique isn't impressive if you don't charge it and the series demonstrate just that.

Except that's not correct, in every instance the "drill" edge hasn't been allowed to hit and has been swatted away. Further when Gohan caught the keizan he obviously did NOT touch the edges which implies that he would have been cut through. Enemies don't just take those attacks head on because of the special properties... unless you want to count filler...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x4gHZP4xRPM

So because 5 guys do not count filler, officially released material, it is more safe to assume that everyone including Zenou, Zenou's Guards, Daishinkan and all Gods of Destructions can be killed by a Kienzan?

[Basako]

So because 5 guys do not count filler, officially released material, it is more safe to assume that everyone including Zenou, Zenou's Guards, Daishinkan and all Gods of Destructions can be killed by a Kienzan?

First, if we would consider all fillers, we have Yamcha defeating Reecome, who crushed Vegeta before dying.

This is not about Krilin vs gods, this is about him vs Lavenda and the others. We don't even know what happened with the Kiezan because the writers didn't bother to show it. The way it was shown, it exploded against the foes and that is not how it works. It was a terrible use of the Kiezan, very poor writing, bad fan service. If they want to have Krilin use the Kiezan because it's his technique and is cool, fine for me, but they should treat it with some respect, not as it was a generic exploding ki orb. It cuts, that's what it does, so he should think twice before using it in this tournament.

[TheMikado]

^ exactly!! This is all anyone is saying about the technique, its brand, it has history, it has meaning.

Say what you want about Z but even when writing filler the writers gave the proper amount of weight to something like this. An enemy being about to tank that technique was used to convey just how screwed they were and dramatically increased the tension. It gave it the proper amount of respect and understood the gravity of it failing even if it was misused.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Myq8Amx1HHg

[DBZ Macky]

Krillin using the Kienzan here was most likely not in Toriyama's outline (judging from it not being of much importance, and using BANK animation). Which pretty much means it was a Toei addition. Being of the Toei-pedigree, that Kienzan doesn't possess the properties of cutting anything, as evidenced by Cell tanking it.

It's unclear if Manga Kienzan can cut through anything or not, but Toei-styled Kienzans certainly can't. Same goes for the Makankosappo.

[PeanutSaiyan]

The whole argument about wether kienzan can cut through anything or not is fucking ridiculous. The real issue here is that it was a poorly used, poorly written piece of fan pandering (even worse it was used as a cheap in between) which clearly demonstrates a disconnect in the writing department ("oh yeah, just have them all use their popular attacks in this frame, who cares"), yet you have people trying to fanon the cheap, lazy writing away.

It's not whether Krillins attack can kill someone or not, it's why are the writers so completely uninterested in the series they are writing.

[TheMikado]

^ to be fair it could be the animators fault too.
Writers could have just said fire cool ki blasts and the animators saved themselves some time and used stock animation. It's a minor thing but the attention to detail and level of "giving a crap" is what'a really painful.
I keep bring up Krillin using the attack against Cell in Z and that's because it was a desperate final attack. It had weight and meaning. You know that when Krillin did this he went all out and had nothing left. We knew exactly what it was and it was designed to kill. More importantly the writers and animators knew what it was and the significance of it and it showed in its presentation as something far different than just a normal ki blast.

[Cetra]

So because 5 guys do not count filler, officially released material, it is more safe to assume that everyone including Zenou, Zenou's Guards, Daishinkan and all Gods of Destructions can be killed by a Kienzan?

First, if we would consider all fillers, we have Yamcha defeating Reecome, who crushed Vegeta before dying.

The problem with that is what exactly? Yamcha did not defeat Recoome WHEN he crushed Vegeta but afterwards to point out how strong the humans were from training with Kaiou. And that is no problem at all because they also got stronger training under Kami than Goku when he trained under Kami. People still do not get that in Dragon Ball they can make them as strong as they want and in cases like those it is not even that farfetch'd. And before you bring in the next argument: Yes, I also buy Yamcha fighting Olibu because of one specific reason: Toei can do what they want, I cannot.

[Basako]

So because 5 guys do not count filler, officially released material, it is more safe to assume that everyone including Zenou, Zenou's Guards, Daishinkan and all Gods of Destructions can be killed by a Kienzan?

First, if we would consider all fillers, we have Yamcha defeating Reecome, who crushed Vegeta before dying.

The problem with that is what exactly? Yamcha did not defeat Recoome WHEN he crushed Vegeta but afterwards to point out how strong the humans were from training with Kaiou. And that is no problem at all because they also got stronger training under Kami than Goku when he trained under Kami. People still do not get that in Dragon Ball they can make them as strong as they want and in cases like those it is not even that farfetch'd. And before you bring in the next argument: Yes, I also buy Yamcha fighting Olibu because of one specific reason: Toei can do what they want, I cannot.

Toei writers, as any writer, can write what they want, but they are supposed to keep a coherency with the content they are producing the filler for, so they shouldn't write anything that could compromise the origin, like major power boosts.

Reecome crushed Vegeta, who had had two Zenkai boosts since his fight on Earth. So if Yamcha had trained with Kaio instead of Goku, he would have crushed Earth Vegeta with a finger. It was not bad writing, it was horrible and totally unbuyable.

Kami's training has been always described as inconsistent too, Toriyama is not perfect, everyone knows power scaling is an issue in DB. But, in this case, I will use your words, he really can do all he wants, because DB is his son, that doesn't make it all good anyway. But Toei shouldn't.

And that was just an example, but we can have more, like the Garlic junior arc, which is a sequel to the first movie, which is incompatible with the series itself, as the rest of the movies. Some fillers cause problems, that's how it is, so most people leave them out of canon.