The Hypocrisy of Super Saiyan Transformations

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'm amazed how people call the SSB '' useless '' or '' weak '' after some defeat (as if all forms did not go through this), and saying that Goku and Vegeta did nothing.
Do people remember what Goku did with the SSJ forms? Or do they forget this because they do not like SSB?

After Goku SSJ defeated Freeza, what was the great achievement of this transformation? Exactly, NOTHING has become a bargain of SSJ and even Goten / Trunks have.

The SSJ2? Gohan beat Cell in this form but due to his arrogance he let the villain strengthen and almost died. After that the SSJ2 was almost forgotten.

What about SSJ3? This was always a transformation that hurt Goku. The Saiyajin managed to hold Boo for Trunks to catch the radar of the dragon, but besides not defeating the monster, only made Goku spend his time on earth. What about Kid Boo? He did not get anything because of the energy wastage and Goku had to resort to Genki Dama.

And the SSG only had a fight, in which he faced a Beerus who was holding on, even giving him a good battle, and then lost.

People talk about the SSB as if Goku with other transformations had never lost a fight, or as if they always had great deeds.

Just because they do not like this transformation

[Lord Beerus]

All SSJ forms are as useful as the plot needs them to be.

[Zagacious]

I think you misunderstand. No one actually thinks SSB is weaker , Super has had this weird habit lately of having Goku do really well in normal SSJ forms then somehow doing slightly worse in SSB form. Latest example is SSB vs LSSJ Kale. Now I know goku wasn't really putting his full effort during that fight, but it doesnt change how they represented it as being brushed aside effortlessly when he turned SSB. It is true that Super has this bad habit of making SSB look weaker than SSj in some instances, when we know it's really not.

[Saturnine]

People are just annoyed that Blue is being trivialized is all. Back when it was introduced, it was supposed to be crazy strong. It still is, but Goku chooses to use it over SSj3 and suppress himself, which makes it look less impressive.

But in all instances when SSj Blue Goku went all out, the results were spectacular. People are just not very comfortable with modifiable powerlevels for some reason, even though they, along with the concept of holding back, have been a thing ever since OG Dragon Ball, and in the Super Saiyan realm since the Cell Games. FPSSj Goku could do the very same thing, so I see no reason for being surprised that SSj Blue can do it too, especially with how good ki control this form supposedly has.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

My issue is less with people who say SSB Goku is always holding back and more with people who claim SSJ1/SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta are as weak as they were in the Buu saga, and that a competent person who gives those forms trouble is then them holding back. It's a never-ending cycle of non-serious fights.

Goku can hold back in Super Saiyan Blue, but what's stopping SSJ1/SSJ2 from being closer to SSB than we thought (via specific training) and then holding back in those as well? Because I think it's becoming clear how little impact SSJ2 ---> SSB actually makes compared to people's prior perceptions.

[GodKaio-Ken]

They shouldnt have called it God Ki if they didnt want people asking wtf when fodder strength characters like Kale transform and suddenly can tank it.

At the very least they could explain how much stronger it supposedly makes the user. Then at least we could figure the rest out ourselves.

[gofishus]

I think you misunderstand. No one actually thinks SSB is weaker , Super has had this weird habit lately of having Goku do really well in normal SSJ forms then somehow doing slightly worse in SSB form. Latest example is SSB vs LSSJ Kale. Now I know goku wasn't really putting his full effort during that fight, but it doesnt change how they represented it as being brushed aside effortlessly when he turned SSB. It is true that Super has this bad habit of making SSB look weaker than SSj in some instances, when we know it's really not.

Not just Goku. Remember in Universe 6 Saga, Vegeta defeated all his opponents as regular SSJ, completely outclassed Cabba as SSJ Blue then against Hit he got defeated in a few punches. Honestly I dont remember SSJ Blue ever defeating a single major opponent

[ChiefWamsutta]

I actually would be curious where people would put SSBerserker, SSBlue, SSRose, SSRage, SSGod, SS1.


I have come to the thought that Green > Blue = Rose = Rage > Red > Yellow

I wonder if SSRage is an incomplete version of SSBerserker, which, according to Vegeta, is the true form of a Saiyan.

Green being the true form could be achieved from either direction like in this graph. You can get there via yellow/rage or via red/blue


Base -> Yellow -> Rage Blue <- Red <- Base

[BlueBasilisk]

Not just Goku. Remember in Universe 6 Saga, Vegeta defeated all his opponents as regular SSJ, completely outclassed Cabba as SSJ Blue then against Hit he got defeated in a few punches. Honestly I dont remember SSJ Blue ever defeating a single major opponent

It never has. Vegeta was giving Black a serious ass beating before he tore open a rift in space/time with his scythe and started spamming shadow clones. Super Saiyan 1 has the best track record against major foes. 3, God and Blue haven't defeated any. I think the only foe who's actually lost to 3 is Hirudegarn.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Not just Goku. Remember in Universe 6 Saga, Vegeta defeated all his opponents as regular SSJ, completely outclassed Cabba as SSJ Blue then against Hit he got defeated in a few punches. Honestly I dont remember SSJ Blue ever defeating a single major opponent

It never has. Vegeta was giving Black a serious ass beating before he tore open a rift in space/time with his scythe and started spamming shadow clones. Super Saiyan 1 has the best track record against major foes. 3, God and Blue haven't defeated any. I think the only foe who's actually lost to 3 is Hirudegarn.

Goku SSB defeated Golden Freeza with a Kamehameha. He then tied with Hitto and Freeza again in this Saga

Before they told me that Freeza was weak, then I say Gohan SSJ2 only won because of Goku's help, and still had his arm broken by Cell.

So yes, SSB even beat opponents. But I am not talking about victories, but about the history of appearance or grandiose moments. The SSJ only had against Freeza and the SSJ2 against Cell

[Kanious]

They shouldnt have called it God Ki if they didnt want people asking wtf when fodder strength characters like Kale transform and suddenly can tank it.

At the very least they could explain how much stronger it supposedly makes the user. Then at least we could figure the rest out ourselves.

Supreme Kai has god ki, but even Piccolo is stronger than him. God ki doesn't mean anything at all. It is just a way of managing ki, it is an "style"...

And Goku vs Kale didn't make SSB appear like it is weak... Kale appeared to be pretty strong, to the point that Jiren recognized that he needed to take care of that.

[GodKaio-Ken]

They shouldnt have called it God Ki if they didnt want people asking wtf when fodder strength characters like Kale transform and suddenly can tank it.

At the very least they could explain how much stronger it supposedly makes the user. Then at least we could figure the rest out ourselves.

Supreme Kai has god ki, but even Piccolo is stronger than him. God ki doesn't mean anything at all. It is just a way of managing ki, it is an "style"...

And Goku vs Kale didn't make SSB appear like it is weak... Kale appeared to be pretty strong, to the point that Jiren recognized that he needed to take care of that.

So how did Goku get stronger as a SSG if there is no power boost.

I get it doesnt make you untouchable but it does provide a boost.

Also why do people assume Dende has God Ki. I dont recall that as anything but headcanon but maybe I missed it.

[Saturnine]

My issue is less with people who say SSB Goku is always holding back and more with people who claim SSJ1/SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta are as weak as they were in the Buu saga, and that a competent person who gives those forms trouble is then them holding back. It's a never-ending cycle of non-serious fights.

I don't think anyone says their SSj and SSj2 is as weak as it was in the Buu saga. They've clearly progressed since then through rigorous training, and while these forms definitely are not SSj God tier, Goku and Vegeta's bases should at least be several times stronger than they were in the Buu arc. If the consensus right now is that base Goku or Vegeta couldn't defeat 100% Freeza (which puts them at like 80-100 million in base), right now they should easily be like 400-500 million in base, if not more than that.

Goku can hold back in Super Saiyan Blue, but what's stopping SSJ1/SSJ2 from being closer to SSB than we thought (via specific training) and then holding back in those as well? Because I think it's becoming clear how little impact SSJ2 ---> SSB actually makes compared to people's prior perceptions.

Yeah, that's an issue, mostly caused by bad portrayal. But still, SSj Blue is being used for anything that requires even a little more power than SSj2, and we have to roll with that. In Toyotaro's manga, SSj Blue is portrayed much better and is much more impressive, but that manga has its slew of issues too.