If Android 18's beat-down of Vegeta happened today.

[TheMikado]

Like what? We have empirical evidence that Kai didn't do as well as Z, and in fact, didn't even make it to the end until years later. What records were broken?
I am genuinely asking

Why is are comparing kai to Z? Its a different time and era.

That is the whole point I'm trying to make. A different era, including technological advances and everything.

Also, I don't understand why you posted DBZ ratings, because that I never argued against. DBZ was a ratings juggernaut, everyone knows that, it is its successors that have done well, but not nearly as well as DBZ. And yes, this can be attributed to a more fractured viewership due to more media outlets being available and more shows to chose from.

But again, this is going severely off-topic.

I've been in this fandom for a very long time, and I'm pretty certain I have not seen the same attitude towards 18 defeating Vegeta the way I have seen with Cauli and Kale being as strong as they are.

Ok Look, I'll break this down:

Thread proposes a scenario where 18 beats down Vegeta today, how would the fans respond?

Your theory is that fans would respond negatively to that story element if seeing it today.
I state that fans would not because the story element is well executed.

Your basis is that the fandom has changed, thus it would be negatively rejected.
My basis is that new viewers watch and do not criticize the product like your theory suggests and enjoy the series. They enjoyed the original. They enjoyed it 10 years ago, they did 5 years ago, and they enjoy it now and today.

We have evidence of reactions from that time period. We have evidence or reactions from the current time period to the same story elements you claim the current fans would reject.

To recap:
There is no evidence that the current fandom would reject the 18/Vegeta fight because there is nothing to support that.
There is more evidence to support that fans repeatedly through out the past few decades enjoy that story element.
The claim that fandom has changed and thus would view this scene negatively is purely unsupported fabrication.
My claim is that the current crop of criticisms are related directly to the product rather than attempting to blame the fandom for their negative reaction.
I am waiting for your evidence to show that current fans of this era would and do react poorly and with negative reactions to the 18/Vegeta dynamic.

[Michsi]

We have evidence of reactions from that time period. We have evidence or reactions from the current time period to the same story elements you claim the current fans would reject.

Where? I have looked at that link, haven't found anything like that. Granted I haven't spent a lot of time searching through because it looks like a lot.

My statement comes from the fact that fandoms do change, everything changes over time, and there is a current social climate that would be reflected in those reaction. That's just natural.

Nobody said that it would be vastly, or completely different, but that there are certain underlying present day elements that would influence the conversation that did not exist back then or at least were not as wide spread as they are today. Hence, 'the agenda' joke people were making.

And the way I see it, this wasn't so much about the general reception regarding that fight, but rather what type of comments you'd see based on what you tend to come across today.

[TheMikado]

We have evidence of reactions from that time period. We have evidence or reactions from the current time period to the same story elements you claim the current fans would reject.

Where? I have looked at that link, haven't found anything like that. Granted I haven't spent a lot of time searching through because it looks like a lot.

My statement comes from the fact that fandoms do change, everything changes over time, and there is a current social climate that would be reflected in those reaction. That's just natural.

Nobody said that it would be vastly, or completely different, but that there are certain underlying present day elements that would influence the conversation that did not exist back then or at least were not as wide spread as they are today. Hence, 'the agenda' joke people were making.

And the way I see it, this wasn't so much about the general reception regarding that fight, but rather what type of comments you'd see based on what you tend to come across today.

I mean this is the full thread:

If Android 18's beat-down of Vegeta happened today.
Would fan's nerd rage nearly as hard as they do with anything that involves Kale, Cauliflua, or Kelfa?

And we have our answer which is no they would not. They didn't 20 years ago, they didn't 10 years ago, they didn't 5 years ago, and they aren't now. As I said no need to speculate.
This thread has nothing to do with "agenda" comments . The "fan nerd rage" against this scenario just doesn't, still doesn't, and likely won't exist even with today's environment.

[MR.Mark]

You don't need backstory for a good character. You just need personality. I don't need to know Tenshinhan's entire life story to know that I like him, and knowing Caulifla's entire life story probably won't make me think of her as any less of a cookie cutter generic brat.

I don't think she's anymore bratty than blonde Lunch but it comes to to your own personal preference in the end.

[Dbzfan94]

Nobody would really bitch because the Androids were built up as legit threats and killed everyone in Trunks' time.

Sure youd get the people who say "how can 2 kids be stronger than Freeza" but we have that anyway.

These threads seem to want to go out of their way to point out Z's flaws when its already been done loooooooong before DBS was even a thought.

[Michsi]

And we have our answer which is no they would not. They didn't 20 years ago, they didn't 10 years ago, they didn't 5 years ago, and they aren't now. As I said no need to speculate.
This thread has nothing to do with "agenda" comments . The "fan nerd rage" against this scenario just doesn't, still doesn't, and likely won't exist even with today's environment.

The agenda thing was just an example of something that is typical of today, and I'd say it falls into the category of 'nerd rage' . Not to mention that I think the 18 vs Vegeta fight was chosen as oppose to the androids in specifically because she is a female fighter.

As for it didn't happen x years ago: again, I've been in this fandom, English speaking and otherwise, a looong time, and maybe I didn't catch the initial reaction after that fight but I've seen the aftermath. People really didn't like that some earth robots were stronger than Freeza .

But I've said pretty much all that there was to say. My initial response was mostly directed at the notion that fandom doesn't change over time, which I don't agree with, and I don't just mean the DB fandom here.

[dragon boss z]

Vegeta was holding back.

Vegeta isn't as strong as Namek Frieza or SSJ Goku, he's more like Third Form Frieza at best.

Vegeta isn't as gifted as Goku, so his SSJ multiplier probably wasn't as great. He probably only saw a tenfold increase, and that's being generous.

Vegeta underestimated Android 18 and lost only due to his egotistical approach.

Android 18 was probably programmed with the innate ability to overcome stronger opponents. Android 18 is actually only Zarbon-tier at best, but her durability as an android and fighting skills are what granted her the win.

Oh wait, I guess Android 18 could be stronger than Zarbon after all, but still no where near Ginyu. Maybe around Jeice and Burter?

Vegeta has two Super Saiyan transformations. One for fodders like Android 18, and the other, a fully powered up version for powerhouses like Namek Frieza and SSJ Goku.

Hilarious right? Seriously, this is how ridiculous it all sounds when characters like Cabba, Frost, Kale, Caulifla, Dyspo, Future Zamasu, Present Zamasu, Android 17, Ribrianne, SSJ Goku / Vegeta / Gohan (current), Base Saiyans, Piccolo (current), Rozie, and many more are downplayed and squeezed into some low power scale below weaklings like Buu and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), who were probably surpassed several sagas before.

You really need to stop acing so pretentious. You have your opinion and other people have theres, and tbh your opinion is most likely wrong anyways. By your logic Krillin is above Buuhan level since he beat an opponent 18 had trouble with and you think 18 is above Buuhan level and he pushed Goku to ssj and Goku can beat ssj3 Gotenks in base. You clearly have an agenda to make every character to be as strong as possible. Mr. Buu was able to beat Basil, who was a mid tier ToP fighter, even while he was amped. Even if you are right about 18 being so strong, which I doubt, it is no reason to act so stuck up thinking your opinion is better than others. There is no need to squeeze anything to put Buu above others, most characters haven't shown anything to put them above him, and I can go through every character you mentioned.

Cabba: he fought a holding back Vegeta, as a ssj or ssj2 I could see him beating Buu, but you probably think he is above ssj3 Gotenks in base
Frost: almost struggled with a tired Roshi, had trouble with Piccolo, don't see him beating Buu, but he could be around Buu level
Kale: In Berserker she can easily beat Buu
Caulifla: In ssj2 she probably beats Buu
Dyspo: Is faster than Buu and can kick him around, not sure if he can finish him though
Zamasu: Can beat Buu since the other storng kais of U7 challenged Buu and Zamasu is a Kai prodigy
Androids 17: Going off his fight with Goku he could beat Buu, but I haven't decided where to put him yet
Ribrianne: From what I've seen of her she is probably upper Buu saga level when at full power. She challenged base Goku a bit but that is really the best thing we've seen, and Goku went ssj against the trio de danger who are around Buu saga level, which is confirmed so I highly doubt Ribiranne is above Buu tier if they aren't.
Base Saiayns: I agree they are above Buu. I think they are around or Buuhan level, who could of easily one shot ssj3 Gotenks
Piccolo: Above Cell now because he is ssj2 tier. Maybe above Mr. Buu idk.
Rozie: weaker than Ribrianne, probably low Buu tier

People aren't randomly trying to squeeze characters in. They are going off feats and logic and recognize when there are inconsistencies in the show. It seems you still haven't realized how DBS power scaling works. It is heavily plot driven and pretty much everyone is in a tier close to each other and can affect each other in some way.

[dragon boss z]

Sure youd get the people who say "how can 2 kids be stronger than Freeza" but we have that anyway.

I actually don't think the kids are stronger than Frieza. In base form they were having trouble with first form Frieza level oppoents, which makes me believe they are weaker than namek Goku, Trunks had trouble with 150x g in base, something end of namek saga Goku probably could of handled in base, when Jaco said it is impossible for a kid to beat Frieza Bulma said of course it was her son from the future, and BoG base Goku was confirmed weaker than Frieza and I feel like base Goku at that time could of at least held his own with ssj Goten or Trunks. Not to mention they have never once beaten an opponent stronger than Frieza, just sparred with friends and family in non serious fights and they even had trouble with a snake in ep 1 of Super which first form Frieza would of blinked away.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here, and I'm not saying it's a fact and there is evidence to counter, but I definitely wouldn't say them being stronger than Frieza is a fact, just a popular opinion.

[Totamo]

Nobody would really bitch because the Androids were built up as legit threats and killed everyone in Trunks' time.

Sure youd get the people who say "how can 2 kids be stronger than Freeza" but we have that anyway.

These threads seem to want to go out of their way to point out Z's flaws when its already been done loooooooong before DBS was even a thought.

No, 19 and 20 were built up. 17 and 18 came out of nowhere. However, none of them should be stronger than Freeza built on Earth with limited tech not even capable of highspeed space travel and Gero not even knowing about namek.

Lets just say, its all dumb.

[TheMikado]

Nobody would really bitch because the Androids were built up as legit threats and killed everyone in Trunks' time.

Sure youd get the people who say "how can 2 kids be stronger than Freeza" but we have that anyway.

These threads seem to want to go out of their way to point out Z's flaws when its already been done loooooooong before DBS was even a thought.

No, 19 and 20 were built up. 17 and 18 came out of nowhere. However, none of them should be stronger than Freeza built on Earth with limited tech not even capable of highspeed space travel and Gero not even knowing about Namek.

Lets just say, its all dumb.

No, the way the story is written Trunks was always talking about 17/18 in universe while 19&20 came out of nowhere. We only know it’s not the case because of what was said out of universe. I’m watching the Android arc with my kids now and the irony is that Toriyama made trunks story fit as if he had heard it 2nd hand because in his timeline he would have. Even his information about Dr Gero being killed by them was correct in the end.

[blackbewhite2k7]

There would be tons of bitching. Remember how fans felt Vegeta was cheated out of defeating Freeza in Resurrection F? Magnify that by 100.

And that's not even taking into consideration how the concept of the Androids is bullshit, as well as Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan to begin with, and how that pisses all over everything about what happened on Namek.

Not to mention all of the other saiyans (aside goku)first ascension into super saiyan originally happened off panel and had to be added by toei.

[Dbzfan94]

I actually don't think the kids are stronger than Frieza.

I was referring to 17 and 18. Who are, or at least have the appearance of, teenagers.

[dragon boss z]

I actually don't think the kids are stronger than Frieza.

I was referring to 17 and 18. Who are, or at least have the appearance of, teenagers.

Oh ok. Ya I don't really liked how strong they were made, I would of preferred if Goku stayed out because of his heart virus, Vegeta didn't get ssj until later (maybe after Trunks dies?) and the androids were just above base saiyans and not ssj. Though since they were modified at a cellular level being stronger than ssj doesn't really contradict anything, you just would think there would be more creations that strong since other planets were more advanced than Earth, yet nothing in the universe really seemed like a threat to even first form Frieza.

[supersaiyanZero]

I don't understand this thread. No.17 & 18 were foreshadowed LONG before we finally got to see a fight between 18 and Vegeta, and by foreshadowed I mean they literally brought upon the end of the world while easily disposing the majority of the main cast. I think the OP is trying to level the playing field against criticisms against Super's really, really shitty writing?

[dragon boss z]

I don't understand this thread. No.17 & 18 were foreshadowed LONG before we finally got to see a fight between 18 and Vegeta, and by foreshadowed I mean they literally brought upon the end of the world while easily disposing the majority of the main cast. I think the OP is trying to level the playing field against criticisms against Super's really, really shitty writing?

Pretty much. Comparing two cellularlly modified beings hyped up for multiple chapters aren't really comparable to a race we already know about that reached ssj with a tingle in their back, and Caulifla getting ssj2 the same day. And Kale randomly being some buff ssj who is above Z ssj3 level. I mean I would have no problem if they were just presented as battle harden warriors who have been training their whole life and also happen to be prodigies that were ssj already. Caulfilfa could of had ssj mastered for years and then she could of unlocked ssj3 in the ToP. I guess Kale ccould keep her berserker form, just leave out the scene of her walking through a SSB kamehameha.

[Colonel Silver]

It'd be seen as badass, same as it was. This isn't at all comparable to the universe 6 saiyan situation.

Exactly this. The Red Ribbon Army already had a history with the franchise and the Androids were sold/built-up properly to the audience through their conflict with Trunks.

A friend of mine called me a hypocrite the other day because I was perfectly okay with the likes of Hit being able to give Goku the business but not the saiyan girls. The thing is, HIt's backstory makes it so that his power is believable. He's 1000 years old and has been all over his universe fighting all types of enemies. What were the saiyan girls before they arrived on the scene to shit on Goku? a bunch of punks who couldn't even turn super saiyan just a few hours ago. toei didn't even have the decency to hit daddy off with some backstory for these characters or context for their power. i was suppose to just eat this shit dry. i need milk to wash this shit down.

[Khandom101]

Vegeta fans would go on a rampage demanding for Toriyama's head.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It'd be seen as badass, same as it was. This isn't at all comparable to the universe 6 saiyan situation.

This seems to be intented as a joke thread, but seriously, these are two very different situations, if people legitimately can't tell the difference all I can say is they probably followed Goku down the waterfall..

Seriously, exactly this. The difference between the androids and the new Saiyans are almost night and day. The only factor that the two situations share is power creep (other than the apparent implication of gender, but lets just leave out the power and feats of 16, 17, 19 and 20 so we can make all the critics sound sexist too ), but even then, the reasoning and execution of that power creep is very different. Like Ki Breaker says, if people can't tell the difference between the two circumstances, there's not much discussion to be had.

The only thing this thread is meant for is making fun of the people who are critical of the execution of Kale and Caulifla's power-ups. From inception, there was never any legitimate intent to have a discussion, since the question is already framed with the term "nerd rage" to paint those people in a bad light. Considering that Kanzenshuu prides itself on civilized discussion, I'm kinda surprised that threads like this are allowed to stay. The only thing that can come from it is mean-spirited mockery and ridicule of others. Call me crazy. but I don't feel like this gels with what Kanzenshuu is supposed to be about.

It's a battle power bargain sale, how was 18 that strong? This is almost as bad as Kale and Califla, well sure there was Goten and Trunks, but that's not as bad because they don't have vaginas, I HATE VIGINAS!

Comments like this are completely unnecessary. Trying to frame critics as sexist pigs to de-legitimize their complaints despite almost none of the people who have voiced issues with these characters have brought up their gender in any way is totally disingenuous and offensive. Female Super Saiyans have been one of the fandom's most fervently asked for additions to the franchise since Pan and Bra were first introduced, sexism isn't a factor outside of a few fringe cases (and anyone with sense should know not to judge an entire group by it's extremists). That's not even mentioning how Android 18 (and even Videl) is universally loved by the fandom and that many were upset that she stopped fighting after marrying Krillin.

If you want to cite the nonplussed reaction to Cabba's transformations as evidence of sexism, that doesn't work either. The reason Cabba doesn't get nearly as many gripes as the girls is that he at least still went through the traditionally accepted rage triggers and his overall progress was slower. From a methodology standpoint, it didn't step on the toes of any pre-established notions - quick through it was. Even then, Cabba still received his share of eyerolling for how quickly and easily he got Super Saiyan back when the U6 tournament was airing. I know, I was there and read the complaints on /r/DBZ myself. People even cited Goten and Trunks in order to defend his easy transformation just like they do now for the girls. I even recall a few commenters upset that they brought in yet another male Saiyan instead of finally introducing a female Super Saiyan.

I gotta say, you sound so cool, calm and make some great posts and points. Its unbelievable that you joined so recently and made so few posts. I would like to see more of you!

[TekTheNinja]

This seems to be intented as a joke thread, but seriously, these are two very different situations, if people legitimately can't tell the difference all I can say is they probably followed Goku down the waterfall..

Seriously, exactly this. The difference between the androids and the new Saiyans are almost night and day. The only factor that the two situations share is power creep (other than the apparent implication of gender, but lets just leave out the power and feats of 16, 17, 19 and 20 so we can make all the critics sound sexist too ), but even then, the reasoning and execution of that power creep is very different. Like Ki Breaker says, if people can't tell the difference between the two circumstances, there's not much discussion to be had.

The only thing this thread is meant for is making fun of the people who are critical of the execution of Kale and Caulifla's power-ups. From inception, there was never any legitimate intent to have a discussion, since the question is already framed with the term "nerd rage" to paint those people in a bad light. Considering that Kanzenshuu prides itself on civilized discussion, I'm kinda surprised that threads like this are allowed to stay. The only thing that can come from it is mean-spirited mockery and ridicule of others. Call me crazy. but I don't feel like this gels with what Kanzenshuu is supposed to be about.

It's a battle power bargain sale, how was 18 that strong? This is almost as bad as Kale and Califla, well sure there was Goten and Trunks, but that's not as bad because they don't have vaginas, I HATE VIGINAS!

Comments like this are completely unnecessary. Trying to frame critics as sexist pigs to de-legitimize their complaints despite almost none of the people who have voiced issues with these characters have brought up their gender in any way is totally disingenuous and offensive. Female Super Saiyans have been one of the fandom's most fervently asked for additions to the franchise since Pan and Bra were first introduced, sexism isn't a factor outside of a few fringe cases (and anyone with sense should know not to judge an entire group by it's extremists). That's not even mentioning how Android 18 (and even Videl) is universally loved by the fandom and that many were upset that she stopped fighting after marrying Krillin.

If you want to cite the nonplussed reaction to Cabba's transformations as evidence of sexism, that doesn't work either. The reason Cabba doesn't get nearly as many gripes as the girls is that he at least still went through the traditionally accepted rage triggers and his overall progress was slower. From a methodology standpoint, it didn't step on the toes of any pre-established notions - quick through it was. Even then, Cabba still received his share of eyerolling for how quickly and easily he got Super Saiyan back when the U6 tournament was airing. I know, I was there and read the complaints on /r/DBZ myself. People even cited Goten and Trunks in order to defend his easy transformation just like they do now for the girls. I even recall a few commenters upset that they brought in yet another male Saiyan instead of finally introducing a female Super Saiyan.

I gotta say, you sound so cool, calm and make some great posts and points. Its unbelievable that you joined so recently and made so few posts. I would like to see more of you!

Seconded. Rebel's posts I am usually in agreement with, so that helps too. Heheh. He's often like a less loud and angry version of me. XD

[namekiansaiyan]

In this situation they would also complain about 17.