Why are 5/8 universes total fodder?

[The_Destroyer]

Only person talking sense. I appreciate your clear thought.

His last paragraph is entirely wrong. Mortal level and weakness aren't the same. Power may play a small role in it but it's certainly not even half of it.

Do people think Zeno is destroying these universe because their martial artists are weak? That would be the implication and we know that isn't the case.

If you don’t see that strength plays a part in calculating mortal level, then I don’t foresee us having a productive conversation.

And TheZFighter, I appreciate that bro! Not too many people on here like that lol

If it did then why is U7 at the bottom?

[Zagacious]

u6,u7 and u11 are the only universes with really strong fighters. the other 5 are vast majority fodder. Maji Kayo aside and maybe the bugs are strong ( i doubt it, probably just stealth). ribrianne was the ace of u2 and she lost to an injured 18 who is probably 7th best on u7. Everyone except maji kayo from u3 is a total joke. u9 and u10 showed absolutely nothing and u4 only has two invisibly bugs and shantsa ( who maybe they surprise us and make him canon janemba). How is it that toei/toriyama didn't think to put atleast one ssg level fighter in every universe? these are supposed to be the best of the best no?

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

I stopped reading there because that is almost entirely false. Android 18 literally KO'ed Ribrianne in TWO SHOTS with no assistance from 17 after she transformed. Based on that there's no way Android 17 or Vegeta would have had any sort of struggle defeating her. I'm all for giving characters credit but exaggerating to this degree just confuses arguments even further. I swear some people are not paying any attention when they watch this show, well I can't just turn my brain off and accept any nonsense it throws at us.

[Saturnine]

@OP look at U7 just like 20 years back. The team would have the Ginyu Force on it, and they'd be considered some of the best members.

[BlueVegerot]

Ribrianne , whether you like her or not was promoted on a toei spread as someone to watch out for along with jiren and kale ( both very strong). She got plenty of screen time. They could have easily made her very strong based on a magical girls reference ( never watched so don't know much.) look at kale her power is justified with her being a broly reference and the fact that her form is broken. Why couldn't they do that with ribrianne? They had license to make really strong fighters in all the universes cause we don't know anything about them so no real justification would be needed but instead 6,7 and 11 got all the strong ones and the other 5 are tossed aside

[CJStriker_CBR]

u6,u7 and u11 are the only universes with really strong fighters. the other 5 are vast majority fodder. Maji Kayo aside and maybe the bugs are strong ( i doubt it, probably just stealth). ribrianne was the ace of u2 and she lost to an injured 18 who is probably 7th best on u7. Everyone except maji kayo from u3 is a total joke. u9 and u10 showed absolutely nothing and u4 only has two invisibly bugs and shantsa ( who maybe they surprise us and make him canon janemba). How is it that toei/toriyama didn't think to put atleast one ssg level fighter in every universe? these are supposed to be the best of the best no?

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

I stopped reading there because that is almost entirely false. Android 18 literally KO'ed Ribrianne in TWO SHOTS with no assistance from 17 after she transformed. Based on that there's no way Android 17 or Vegeta would have had any sort of struggle defeating her. I'm all for giving characters credit but exaggerating to this degree just confuses arguments even further. I swear some people are not paying any attention when they watch this show, well I can't just turn my brain off and accept any nonsense it throws at us.

While indeed what happen to Ribrianne in Episode 117 is what happen, their is a good case to be made that Ribrianne at the start of the ToP was much stronger then she become later on, aka Ribrianne and honestly other fighters from other universe got Nerfed from their showing in the 1st few Episodes.

We pay attention to this just as much as anyone else and the way the Fights where as Polyphase Avatron put it and I will go further with it, Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta making it seem like it was easy for her and her Fight with 17 was on an even playing field. So Ribrianne was Strong, At The Start of the ToP, but for some Reason Toei seem to rewrite both Her and other from episode 107 and on.

The show felt different after that break and while the problems of the wasting of characters was evident as soon as 101, it seem still toei was Trying to make strong characters. But starting at 107 it seem where the problems start. That was the whole Ribrianne vs. Base Goku Fight which I remember clearly a good amount of posters here saying that it did not make any sense for Goku to just be in Base form after what level of power Ribrianne showed in episode 102 and 103.

This went further with other characters too.

* Roshi being able to trade blows for even a second with Frost.

* Berserker Kale was able to in 100 go head-to-head with SSJ-Blue Goku, yet by 114 an Evolved and more Powered Kale couldn't keep pace with SSJ-Red Goku.

* Toppo in the Preliminaries could take a blast from SSJ-Blue Goku with only his suit torn and make him work for it but got a gut-check by Vegeta once and went down.

* Dyspo being a fast and Furious Fighter in 104 and yet since then seems to be avoiding and co-warding form each battle.

It just seems Toei nerfed abunch of the other Universe, took their chips away from them and went ALL-IN for U7 and Mainly Jiren to carry the Rest of the ToP. So their is an argument base on what we have seen ourselves that Ribrianne and other where more powerful ealier but got Nerfed by Toei for strange reasons later on and that makes us upset the inconsistencies that are plan to see.

[BlueVegerot]

I agree with CJ. They changed the strength of characters from episode to episode its a joke. in 102 ribrianne was laughing while keeping up with ssj vegeta and in 112 she couldn't handle him in base. you mean to tell me ssj vegeta suppressed himself that much? Come on man. We've seen this with others like dyspo, kale, gohan ,etc. i know this tournament will come down to goku vs jiren but they had a great chance to have some excellent fights and matchups beforehand and they botched it

[Zagacious]

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

I stopped reading there because that is almost entirely false. Android 18 literally KO'ed Ribrianne in TWO SHOTS with no assistance from 17 after she transformed. Based on that there's no way Android 17 or Vegeta would have had any sort of struggle defeating her. I'm all for giving characters credit but exaggerating to this degree just confuses arguments even further. I swear some people are not paying any attention when they watch this show, well I can't just turn my brain off and accept any nonsense it throws at us.

While indeed what happen to Ribrianne in Episode 117 is what happen, their is a good case to be made that Ribrianne at the start of the ToP was much stronger then she become later on, aka Ribrianne and honestly other fighters from other universe got Nerfed from their showing in the 1st few Episodes.

We pay attention to this just as much as anyone else and the way the Fights where as Polyphase Avatron put it and I will go further with it, Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta making it seem like it was easy for her and her Fight with 17 was on an even playing field. So Ribrianne was Strong, At The Start of the ToP, but for some Reason Toei seem to rewrite both Her and other from episode 107 and on.

The point was that he's trying to come up with examples of how these people are not fodder. I agree they should NOT be treated as fodder especially characters like Ribrianne who were hyped to death and then get an embarrassing two shot elimination from the character that hasn't even been training for 10-20 years as far as we know. Personally I think they should have made her slightly below SSB Vegeta level at her maximum transformation, because otherwise no one's even going to care about that character after this tournament if she's treated as just another one of the fodder characters. She got a lot of screen time, which only added to the hype and disappointment with how she was eliminated.

Based on her fight with 18, she's probably not even close to as strong as Perfect Cell. All the other examples he listed are mostly due to someone from U7 holding back, which you can tell because of how their opponent was eliminated.

The point about characters jumping around in power is one of the prime examples of why power scaling matters to the story. The way Ribrianne was eliminated it's almost like no one was even attempting to make it consistent.

What I really don't understand is who thought it was a good idea to make her, of all people, so weak? Having the Androids struggling against her (but still win) would have made a world of difference. They didn't even struggle, it was actually far worse than the 17 episode where he just went around facerolling the people in her universe.

[perucho1990]

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

I stopped reading there because that is almost entirely false. Android 18 literally KO'ed Ribrianne in TWO SHOTS with no assistance from 17 after she transformed. Based on that there's no way Android 17 or Vegeta would have had any sort of struggle defeating her. I'm all for giving characters credit but exaggerating to this degree just confuses arguments even further. I swear some people are not paying any attention when they watch this show, well I can't just turn my brain off and accept any nonsense it throws at us.

While indeed what happen to Ribrianne in Episode 117 is what happen, their is a good case to be made that Ribrianne at the start of the ToP was much stronger then she become later on, aka Ribrianne and honestly other fighters from other universe got Nerfed from their showing in the 1st few Episodes.

We pay attention to this just as much as anyone else and the way the Fights where as Polyphase Avatron put it and I will go further with it, Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta making it seem like it was easy for her and her Fight with 17 was on an even playing field. So Ribrianne was Strong, At The Start of the ToP, but for some Reason Toei seem to rewrite both Her and other from episode 107 and on.

The show felt different after that break and while the problems of the wasting of characters was evident as soon as 101, it seem still toei was Trying to make strong characters. But starting at 107 it seem where the problems start. That was the whole Ribrianne vs. Base Goku Fight which I remember clearly a good amount of posters here saying that it did not make any sense for Goku to just be in Base form after what level of power Ribrianne showed in episode 102 and 103.

This went further with other characters too.

* Roshi being able to trade blows for even a second with Frost.

* Berserker Kale was able to in 100 go head-to-head with SSJ-Blue Goku, yet by 114 an Evolved and more Powered Kale couldn't keep pace with SSJ-Red Goku.

* Toppo in the Preliminaries could take a blast from SSJ-Blue Goku with only his suit torn and make him work for it but got a gut-check by Vegeta once and went down.

* Dyspo being a fast and Furious Fighter in 104 and yet since then seems to be avoiding and co-warding form each battle.

It just seems Toei nerfed abunch of the other Universe, took their chips away from them and went ALL-IN for U7 and Mainly Jiren to carry the Rest of the ToP. So their is an argument base on what we have seen ourselves that Ribrianne and other where more powerful ealier but got Nerfed by Toei for strange reasons later on and that makes us upset the inconsistencies that are plan to see.

Imo the problem started in episode 104, with the return of SSJG Goku, it looked like Toei was forced by Toriyama in doing some last mins changes, SSJG for example is all Toriyama.

Then we see Brianne and Kale being nerfed despite for example Tien saying that Kale got stronger after controlling her Berserker form, Rozie for some reason doing better than Kakunza vs 17 when both Maidens were supposed to be equal.

There is a clear lack of planning.

[CJStriker_CBR]

I stopped reading there because that is almost entirely false. Android 18 literally KO'ed Ribrianne in TWO SHOTS with no assistance from 17 after she transformed. Based on that there's no way Android 17 or Vegeta would have had any sort of struggle defeating her. I'm all for giving characters credit but exaggerating to this degree just confuses arguments even further. I swear some people are not paying any attention when they watch this show, well I can't just turn my brain off and accept any nonsense it throws at us.

While indeed what happen to Ribrianne in Episode 117 is what happen, their is a good case to be made that Ribrianne at the start of the ToP was much stronger then she become later on, aka Ribrianne and honestly other fighters from other universe got Nerfed from their showing in the 1st few Episodes.

We pay attention to this just as much as anyone else and the way the Fights where as Polyphase Avatron put it and I will go further with it, Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta making it seem like it was easy for her and her Fight with 17 was on an even playing field. So Ribrianne was Strong, At The Start of the ToP, but for some Reason Toei seem to rewrite both Her and other from episode 107 and on.

The point was that he's trying to come up with examples of how these people are not fodder. I agree they should NOT be treated as fodder especially characters like Ribrianne who were hyped to death and then get an embarrassing two shot elimination from the character that hasn't even been training for 10-20 years as far as we know. Personally I think they should have made her slightly below SSB Vegeta level at her maximum transformation, because otherwise no one's even going to care about that character after this tournament if she's treated as just another one of the fodder characters. She got a lot of screen time, which only added to the hype and disappointment with how she was eliminated.
Based on her fight with 18, she's probably not even close to as strong as Perfect Cell. All the other examples he listed are mostly due to someone from U7 holding back, which you can tell because of how their opponent was eliminated.

The point about characters jumping around in power is one of the prime examples of why power scaling matters to the story. The way Ribrianne was eliminated it's almost like no one was even attempting to make it consistent.

Indeed I agree with you their Zagacious, well said , it is nice to have this discussion with you. That is the main problem of mine both here with this story and it is one of the major grips I have the most when a story does this ~ No Be Consistent!

As much as Power Scaling might have controversy to it, it IS a Mathematical part of Dragon Ball whether one likes it or not. Toei for most of Z stayed true to that and we where able to follow how characters evolved and where they where going from that root mathematical bases. But it seems espically in the ToP now that Toei while at the start of the arc kept to honoring that, all of the sudden started to throw it out and I really can't say why they did it?!

The only powerscaling they did right was with Goku vs. Jiren, while with Ribrianne they seem to throw out what they wrote in 102 and 103 and went with Rule of Cool and Fanfare of Base Level Goku instead of keeping her consistent with past performances. It was confusing then and even more now, Toei seems more interested in Rule of Cool now then honoring their classic ways of storytelling.

Just speaking for Ribrianne, this is a Disservice to her character cause she was being built up from the start as a Very Powerful character whether one liked her or not. But then Toei just pulled the plug on that and she just become weaker and they never gave a reasoning for that and it seemed to be a consent theme with other characters as well, going towards more Rule of Cool looking fights then if the fights even made sense.

The only thing I can think of for the reasoning for this is that Toei might have made wanted to many poweful fighters, they put to-many powerful eggs in one basket and they want to save these characters like Brianne, Kale, Caulifla, Cabba and others to have future development arcs. If to many Powerful characters came-out of the ToP the young ones might not have many more ladders to climb and they get stale in their view, just their view. But by keeping them lower they save them to have more story.

I am ok with that, but NOT ok with how they were inconsistent with getting their, making it seem like 2-DIFFERENT ToP's, one that was from the Preliminaries to Episode 106 and then the other form 107 and on where allot of characters got nerfed cause Toei might have written themselves into a corner with having To Many Powerful Fighters. That is my only guess, but Toei no matter what at the present state really screwed-up and let down allot of us fans.

For me I will Always like Brianne and for more then just her power. The good things was She got a good showing by the end of 117 with her taking her lose as a class act and saying she needs to learn more about True love, but still Toei should have pulled the plug on her so much for in-consitent reasons.

[BlueVegerot]

^^^

These nerfs weren't even necessary. Kale, Brianne, etc could have been on par with ss3 goku or just below ssg from the start but toei decided that homages and looking cool is more important that consistency. I would have loved for 17 and ribrianne to have had a long drawn out fight where both sides are fighting well and then 17 to win cause of his infinite stamina but

[CJStriker_CBR]

I agree with CJ. They changed the strength of characters from episode to episode its a joke. in 102 ribrianne was laughing while keeping up with ssj vegeta and in 112 she couldn't handle him in base. you mean to tell me ssj vegeta suppressed himself that much? Come on man. We've seen this with others like dyspo, kale, gohan ,etc. i know this tournament will come down to goku vs jiren but they had a great chance to have some excellent fights and matchups beforehand and they botched it

^^^

These nerfs weren't even necessary. Kale, Brianne, etc could have been on par with ss3 goku or just below ssg from the start but toei decided that homages and looking cool is more important that consistency. I would have loved for 17 and ribrianne to have had a long drawn out fight where both sides are fighting well and then 17 to win cause of his infinite stamina but

Hello BlueVegerot, Nice to Meet you and talk with you.

Indeed, one of the major things I have noticed in discussions about the ToP the past week is that since 117, their has been this feeling of being letdown to a degree. I believe this feeling has been around for awhile, but I think 117 combined with Kale and Caulifla going in 116, this was the culmination of these frustrations and feelings of "Is Toei even serious about other characters being powerful and a challenge?!"

To me it does not even seem that hard to do so, it is the same story Toei has written all the time for DB, a challenge comes their way and while their power is great, U7 that is, they need to push themselves harder and to new levels to do so. So Far that is only with Jiren and UI Goku, that is really it. Every other fight go more and more nerfed down.

Again to anyone that wants to see characters from U7 do this well I am glad they are getting what they want and I don't want to take anything away from that.

But the culminating frustration that is in apart of the fanbase right here is that fact it seem like Toei was giving us a Variety of characters that would be a challenge and then for no reasonable reason they pull the plug and it happen as you put it all of the sudden.

We wanted Major Unique match-up and showing of challenging power! But instead it just seemed more and more U7 was outclassing everyone and that gap got bigger and bigger for strange reasons.

I still think these characters have a bright future if Toei still is serious about developing them, but the Plug Pull is a real black eye on the ToP story. Toei can't expect us to not notice these problems and let them slip by.

[TheOne]

His last paragraph is entirely wrong. Mortal level and weakness aren't the same. Power may play a small role in it but it's certainly not even half of it.

Do people think Zeno is destroying these universe because their martial artists are weak? That would be the implication and we know that isn't the case.

If you don’t see that strength plays a part in calculating mortal level, then I don’t foresee us having a productive conversation.

And TheZFighter, I appreciate that bro! Not too many people on here like that lol

If it did then why is U7 at the bottom?

Do you really think 10 fighters would make a difference when calculating billions/trillions of other beings? Mathematically it’s not possible.

I clearly stated that I wasn’t even sure when the last time their mortal level was even checked. But having a lack of life in U7 definitely doesn’t help.

[namekiansaiyan]

Having so many weak characters does not hekp this arc at all.

We all know it was done so Univeree 7 can get a lot wins however they are dominated by only a few members if Universe 7.

It also done so we can get through the tournament quicker and so that Universr 7 is always on the screen. We could have had top tiers going at from each Universe who should be really strong such as the Trio de Dangers vs Magical girls to show us that they are a real threat instead of them just being the next random fighters for team Universe 7.