Is Vegeta a smart fighter?

[AloversGaming]

Vegeta's character went in the toilet after Namek. Seeing how cunning and intelligent he is in the Saiyan and Namek arcs to becoming a mindless power hungry loof in the Android arc is depressing.

He went from sneaking around Namek out smarting Freeza and his army to speeding head first into every battle then sulking when he lost. If anything; Super improved his character. At least now he doesn't throw as many childish fits.

Goku, Master Roshi, Piccolo, Krillin. They've always shown to be the real martial artists with the best understanding of combat, ki control and technique.

[Ringworm128]

There was really no need for him to be cunning in the Artificial Human arc. Him sneaking around Freeza was due to the fact that he knew the Big F was in another realm of strength compared to him, and the Ginyu Force was more than he could handle.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

[spoiler][/spoiler]


In this page the translation is '' great warrior '', but in JP, Piccolo really speaks that he is a genius (he says Tatakai no tensai).
Whis also says the same thing in DBS.

Vegeta's attitude on Freeza's ship was simply brilliant. He deceived the emperor of the universe, Zarbon, took ALL the 6 Dragon Balls and left without being seen.

He was also very calculating to kill Freeza's henchmen, even though he was weaker than them. He waited for each of them to separate to catch them by surprise.
And there are several other moments in the series in which he is very intelligent.

The problem is that this is sometimes overshadowed by his arrogance, which does not let him think straight. Mostly in DBS, in which he is being very poorly portrayed in some moments

[Kanassa]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

[HeroR]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

Not to mention the entire bluffing scene was stupid since he should have known that 19 could suck energy because of what happened with Goku, he outright said he saw the entire fight. So why in god's name did he need to confirmed anything?

It was the manga telling me Vegeta was so smart and I wasn't buying it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

Not to mention the entire bluffing scene was stupid since he should have known that 19 could suck energy because of what happened with Goku, he outright said he saw the entire fight. So why in god's name did he need to confirmed anything?

It was the manga telling me Vegeta was so smart and I wasn't buying it.

Piccolo said that Vegeta just wanted to CONFIRM if Android 19 absorbed energy (he did not know anything about them, even having watched the fight against Goku).

In the end, he managed to destroy the 19 easily even after losing so much energy. Nothing has changed

[Kanassa]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

He acted like a complete moron who apparently forgot the Frieza saga.

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

[HeroR]

Piccolo said that Vegeta just wanted to CONFIRM if Android 19 absorbed energy (he did not know anything about them, even having watched the fight against Goku).

In the end, he managed to destroy the 19 easily even after losing so much energy. Nothing has changed

He should have saw 19 sucked Goku's Kamehameha if he saw the entire fight and 19 was clearly draining his energy while he's down. If he still needed confirmation, then Vegeta is a moron and Piccolo is also a moron for thinking more confirmation was needed. Especially when later Vegeta turns around and fires an energy blast to smoke 20 out, completely forgetting that he can absorbed it.

He destroyed 19 but then had to bluff to 20 so he wouldn't kill him. It was a stupid and unneeded plan.

Also:

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

I suggest you go to TV Tropers and look up Character Shrilling, because that's exactly what Piccolo did.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

Do you mean Goku pointed out why Piccolo's giant form was horrible or him getting his arm broken by his own energy seeker attack?

But in fairness, Piccolo got much wiser in Z. He was a cocky moron in Dragon Ball who got outsmarted by Goku in every turn and only came closed to winning because Goku stupidly lowered his guard.

[Kanassa]

But in fairness, Piccolo got much wiser in Z. He was a cocky moron in Dragon Ball who got outsmarted by Goku in every turn and only came closed to winning because Goku stupidly lowered his guard.

He did get better, though I straining to remember many times when Piccolo actually did much strategic work. He came up with the plan to kill Raditz, I think he did something smart of Namek, he kept Cell distracted, tracked down the Androids and came up with the strategy to beat Buu which probably would have worked if Gotenks didn't fuck it up. Really the Buu one is the only part I can think of that was actually pretty smart, others make it hard to see him as this great strategist he's always coined as.

Also, the only reason Piccolo was even a threat in his introduction arc was because of Goku's sense of fairness and challenge.

[Michsi]

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

To be fair, he was three.

I think they're all a little gracious with the term "genius" and do use it in cases where it wasn't necessarily deserved, though I can't help but feel maybe something is lost in translation. Like it doesn't just mean strictly intellect, but being really good at something. What Vegeta essentially did was stare down his opponent which got him to retreat . Fooling another fighter into thinking you're stronger than you actually can be seen as a form of tactic, and it takes guts and determination to pull off such an act convincingly. Guess that's what Piccolo referring to, not the bluff itself.

[Kanassa]

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

To be fair, he was three.

With memories and knowledge of... How old was King Piccolo, not counting the years in the Rice Cooker?

[Doctor.]

What's the matter with everyone here?

Piccolo himself called Vegeta a genius of fights and believed that he had surpassed Goku (android saga) only by his actions against 19 and Gero (mainly his bluff).

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

I mean, it means that the series acknowledges that Vegeta is smart, especially with another character that is portrayed to be smart (even though he, too, is a complete retard). In-universe, Vegeta is supposed to be a smart fighter, which isn't an impressive feat that is hard to believe considering everyone's an idiot.

[HeroR]

But in fairness, Piccolo got much wiser in Z. He was a cocky moron in Dragon Ball who got outsmarted by Goku in every turn and only came closed to winning because Goku stupidly lowered his guard.

He did get better, though I straining to remember many times when Piccolo actually did much strategic work. He came up with the plan to kill Raditz, I think he did something smart of Namek, he kept Cell distracted, tracked down the Androids and came up with the strategy to beat Buu which probably would have worked if Gotenks didn't fuck it up. Really the Buu one is the only part I can think of that was actually pretty smart, others make it hard to see him as this great strategist he's always coined as.

Also, the only reason Piccolo was even a threat in his introduction arc was because of Goku's sense of fairness and challenge.

He came up with plans to beat or at least cripple Nappa. They failed because of Gohan and him not knowing Nappa overcame his tail being grabbed.

Piccolo was kinda dumb in the Frieza Saga since he wished to go to Namek after his revival, which put everyone’s revival in danger. Although, he did buy time for Goku to recover and the Spirit Bomb.

Gotenks totally screwed throughout the Buu Saga.

His fight with Frost proves he a good thinker since he nearly beat someone physically superior to him.

That’s kinda true. Even after he ‘killed’ Goku, it’s questionable if he take Roshi, Tien, Yamcha, and especially Kami at the same time. He seemed almost doomed to failure.

[Michsi]

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

To be fair, he was three.

With memories and knowledge of... How old was King Piccolo, not counting the years in the Rice Cooker?

I was being facetious.

But you can clearly see him having calmed down and matured in the five years between the 23rd TB arc and saiyan arc, so I guess that counts in a way.

And to be honest, aside from Goku tricking him into growing larger and having that projectile aimed back at him, I can't remember him doing something else wrong.

Piccolo was kinda dumb in the Frieza Saga since he wished to go to Namek after his revival, which put everyone’s revival in danger. Although, he did buy time for Goku to recover and the Spirit Bomb.

Well, one right decision he made in that arc was convince them that he should be brought back first because that would automatically revive Kami and the earth DB which could bring back more than one person per wish.

[HeroR]

To be fair, he was three.

With memories and knowledge of... How old was King Piccolo, not counting the years in the Rice Cooker?

I was being facetious.

But you can clearly see him having calmed down and matured in the five years between the 23rd TB arc and saiyan arc, so I guess that counts in a way.

And to be honest, aside from Goku tricking him into growing larger and having that projectile aimed back at him, I can't remember him doing something else wrong.

Him wasting a bunch of energy on an energy attack that Goku tanked comes to mind. Like, he can sense ki, shouldn’t he felt that wouldn’t work? Not helped that Goku called him a moran.

And not knowing the weakness in your own technique is Future Trunks’ level of greenhorn.

[sintzu]

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

I gave nearly 20 examples of him being smart and they still have a "see no evil, hear no evil" attitude so it's clear they're seeing what they want to see and nothing will change that.

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

For some reason this is the only thing some remember when talking about Vegeta, never mind the fact that Goku did the exact same thing against Beerus when they fought on King Kai's planet so by their logic Goku is an arrogant idiot as well for that single mistake.

[Michsi]

Him wasting a bunch of energy on an energy attack that Goku tanked comes to mind. Like, he can sense ki, shouldn’t he felt that wouldn’t work? Not helped that Goku called him a moran.
.

Are we talking about that wave that leveled the island? Because I'm pretty sure he, and nobody else, wouldn't have thought anybody could tank that. Goku's ki sensing friends, including Kami, didn't know Goku could tank that.
And what weakness? That it left him drained? Cause it didn't. Goku turned his back to Piccolo because of that misjudgment.

[Kanassa]

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

I gave nearly 20 examples of him being smart and they still have a "see no evil, hear no evil" attitude so it's clear they're seeing what they want to see and nothing will change that.

It' already been pointed out to you that the majority of your examples are either not smart or just plain common sense. Outside of Namek, since there Vegeta displayed actual smarts.

[sintzu]

It's already been pointed out to you that the majority of your examples are either not smart or just plain common sense.

Like I said, you're seeing what you want to see.

[Kanassa]

It's already been pointed out to you that the majority of your examples are either not smart or just plain common sense.

Like I said, you're seeing what you want to see.

I can't tell, are you talking to me or yourself?