Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Whatever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:29 pm

TheDipDap1234 wrote:
It would have been nice to see 18 use some new techniques, or maybe even the kienzan again. Also saying she got better treatment than almost half of the team is questionable. The only ones who were treated worse than her were Krillin, Tien and Piccolo in my opinion.
I mean outside of 17 nobody used some new techniques and considering that both Goku and Krillin ended up using the Kienzan,it lost its luster just like Piccolo using the Hellzone Grenade in the same episode with 2 other people :yawn:

While Roshi got the better character episodes,18's exit was as good as him and the opponents she took out were stronger than the one Roshi took out.
I also said almost half of the team.4/10 is almost half :wink:
Michsi wrote:
Tien, maybe. Krillin and Piccolo? I don't know about that. Her exit was treated better than theirs, but the rest is debatable. She was nearly the first one out before Krillin saved her, for a while it seemed like #17 was constantly looking out for her, and was then saved again by Piccolo. Everyone needed rescuing once or twice,but it feels like she needed it a little more than the others. Her greatest accomplishment was her fight with Ribrianne, but looking back, aside from her colorful presence, I have a hard time considering Ribrianne a formidable opponent.
Not to mention my biggest pet peeve, her occasional moodiness that cropped up from time to time. Like in Vegeta's case, it was as if the writers couldn't settle on a temper.
Piccolo's biggest fight were the U6 Namekians and while they were stronger than Ribrianne,Piccolo got pushed aside and was regulated to support for Gohan(not to mention while 18 was beating up random fodders in the first episodes Piccolo was losing arms).

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Asura » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
gohan_black wrote:
Asura wrote:
Are you really that influenced by power levels that 17 is the worst thing about Super to you? Also you say 10 years like that isn’t a ridiculously long amount of time.
it isnt when you spend them without any special training doing nothing but fighting poachers. do you really compare it to goku who trained in hard gravity for 7 years in conditions way harder then 17 ever did. and yet goku was still very far from god level. now you tell me android 17 can jump to god ki level when he did nothing but fighting poachers? come on. dont make me laugh
I know a lot of people make fun of 17 getting so strong, but something that both mediums do, is not mention how 17 got stronger. Nowhere do they say "he got stronger from fighting poachers", thats just a meme people came up with that your translating as fact for some reason. How 17 trained is left ambiguous, much in the same way Freeza's training in the RoF movie was left ambiguous. The reason behind this is that by being rather vague with this sort of thing, they can get away with how strong they make characters.

In other words, 17 trained for 10 years and got good. I don't see how this is problem.
Yeah, and speaking of Freeza, it took him FOUR MONTHS to go from SSJ level to stronger than SSB. In contrast, it took 17 THIRTEEN YEARS (not just 10) to get to SSB level. Quite a difference there.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by H3ct0r_17 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:13 pm

Can't talk for everyone, but from what i've seen in social media and forums, for many people (myself included) it's a breath of fresh air to have a non-saiyan character from the main cast to get the spotlight several times and become somewhat relevant after the complete saiyan wankfest that Super was for the most part of its run.

Do make sense 17's jump from being SSJ level to SSG/SSB tier? Probably not for a lot of people, but he isn't the first nor he will be the last character in this franchise to get a massive and "nonsensical" powerup.
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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Paragon1 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:22 pm

H3ct0r_17 wrote:Can't talk for everyone, but from what i've seen in social media and forums, for many people (myself included). It's a breath of fresh air to have a non-saiyan character from the main cast to get the spotlight several times and become somewhat relevant after the complete saiyan wankfest that Super was for the most part of its run.

Makes sense 17's jump from being SSJ level to SSG/SSB tier? Probably not for a lot of people, but he isn't the first nor will be the last character in this franchise to get a massive and "nonsensical" powerup.
Yep. That sums my thoughts up exactly a non Saiyan on U7 actually having an impact on current day battles for once is refreshing and I can forgive any power scaling "oddities" surrounding his power up. 17 and 18 have been the best bits of ToP for me.

Theres quite a lot about 17 that I like as well, in his conversations with Jiren about his wish and his references to being "human". He does not dwell on the past that he has been made into an Android against his will and it seems like the ToP has allowed him to come out of his shell, away from his island to take part in something big for humanity and can feel truly human in his actions. Some good backstory here I feel at a deeper level.

I wish that one day we might see some flashback of 17 and 18 before they were captured by Dr Gero and what actually happend to them.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:49 pm

Michsi wrote:Change of opinion definitely happens. Look at the Cell Saga and the Buu Saga. A couple of years ago the Cell saga was seen as the second greatest arc of DB and Buu as the worst. Now more and more say how Buu saga was actually really good and Cell saga kinda bad. But such a shift tends to happen at a very slow pace, so I'm curious how the TOP will be remembered as in a couple of years. Maybe Ribrianne and #17 will switch places :lol:
Never in all the 9-Relms, Asguard or Midgard, will 17 EVER been seen in a Negative Light from the events of the ToP, he was THAT well handled. :lol: :clap:

Really one of the best comebacks I have seen handled for any classic character in a longtime and many did not see it coming. If the ToP is remembered for anything worth wild it will be 17 easy.

As for Ribrianne I already have seen a change in attitude toward her since her story ended back in 118, more positive and respectful then how it was just a few months back. When the rush machine of the new episodes for the ToP goes away and the ToP goes into history more fans usually look back on things with more positive eyes. Ribrianne will be not much different, while I already feel she has more positive fans then are given credit for her, she will have more as time goes on, this always happens with many characters.

Also, I have heard it 2 times already, Ribrianne is Pretty Popular Among the Japaneses Fans! :wink: :thumbup:

With their legacy of Magical Girl Heroes it makes sense why, so Ribrianne is better off then we might realize.
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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by prince212 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:20 pm

Android 17 was the best thing in the tournament of power by far , about the whole dbs .. I really enjoyed future trunks arc , putting aside some incoherences .
I hope a17 will be back somehow in the franchise , because he really gain a place and his personality fits so well , the way he still wish his boat under the thircuntances was a good semi-gag , I mean , I understand that wish prior to the tournament, but after seeing universes erased ... he’s an idol :clap:
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:07 am

Whatever wrote:
Michsi wrote:
Tien, maybe. Krillin and Piccolo? I don't know about that. Her exit was treated better than theirs, but the rest is debatable. She was nearly the first one out before Krillin saved her, for a while it seemed like #17 was constantly looking out for her, and was then saved again by Piccolo. Everyone needed rescuing once or twice,but it feels like she needed it a little more than the others. Her greatest accomplishment was her fight with Ribrianne, but looking back, aside from her colorful presence, I have a hard time considering Ribrianne a formidable opponent.
Not to mention my biggest pet peeve, her occasional moodiness that cropped up from time to time. Like in Vegeta's case, it was as if the writers couldn't settle on a temper.
Piccolo's biggest fight were the U6 Namekians and while they were stronger than Ribrianne,Piccolo got pushed aside and was regulated to support for Gohan(not to mention while 18 was beating up random fodders in the first episodes Piccolo was losing arms).
Piccolo was saving Gohan, the forth/third strongest fighter or U7... against someone Vegeta nearly lost his head to. Also eliminated the second strongest fodder from U10. See? This is what I mean with people focusing on different things and selective memory.

His fight with the namekians focused heavily on the thematic aspect and that theme included Gohan. From the get-go this arc made it clear that Piccolo and Gohan would be fighting as a duo and they stuck with that right up until Piccolo got eliminated. The reason we got two namekians instead of one was precisely so that they could have a pair vs. pair fight; Saonel and Pirina were tailored to match Gohan and Piccolo, not just Piccolo. It was never going to be Piccolo's fight alone, that much should've been obvious, but that still doesn't mean he wasn't the center of it. You say that he was Gohan's support, I say it was the other way around. For once, Piccolo depended on Gohan, and Gohan was the one that helped him overcome something. That Gohan was the stronger of the two is irrelevant since it was made quite clear neither of them could've won on their own.
Not to mention that the studio brought their A game to this episode, and with the exception of a few re-used animation scenes, it was a highlight of the arc. I'd rather have Piccolo share screen-time in a great episode, than have him be the sole star of a bad or mediocre one.
CJStriker_CBR wrote:Never in all the 9-Relms, Asguard or Midgard, will 17 EVER been seen in a Negative Light from the events of the ToP, he was THAT well handled.
Here's the thing though. Now that we saw it was all supposed to lead up to a moment of self-sacrifice, people might retroactively look at his role a bit differently. "Ah, so that's why they've been shining all this light on him." As for now, he's definitely the dark horse of the arc, I'd even say he might have upstaged Freeza in the latest episodes (Freeza has all these expectations to live up to, so it's going to be harder in his case)

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Whatever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:09 am

Michsi wrote:[

Piccolo was saving Gohan, the forth/third strongest fighter or U7... against someone Vegeta nearly lost his head to.
*5th strongest* goku,Vegeta,Freeza and 17 are the 4 strongerst of U7
Also eliminated the second strongest fodder from U10. See? This is what I mean with people focusing on different things and selective memory.
Nobody,not even Obuni and Gowasu cared about him being eliminated.
His fight with the namekians focused heavily on the thematic aspect and that theme included Gohan. From the get-go this arc made it clear that Piccolo and Gohan would be fighting as a duo and they stuck with that right up until Piccolo got eliminated.
Not really,Gohan was not with Piccolo in the episode that Freeza eliminated Frost,Piccolo was somehow forbidden to interact with anyone else but Gohan it seems.
The reason we got two namekians instead of one was precisely so that they could have a pair vs. pair fight; Saonel and Pirina were tailored to match Gohan and Piccolo, not just Piccolo.
Character wise they were clearly meant for Piccolo but Gohan still got most of the fight between them.
It was never going to be Piccolo's fight alone, that much should've been obvious, but that still doesn't mean he wasn't the center of it.
Because he really wasn't.
You say that he was Gohan's support, I say it was the other way around. For once, Piccolo depended on Gohan, and Gohan was the one that helped him overcome something. That Gohan was the stronger of the two is irrelevant since it was made quite clear neither of them could've won on their own.
Piccolo did not even fight them hand to hand after they went full power and only fired a SBC at them,so yeah support.
Not to mention that the studio brought their A game to this episode
Yes and it was to make Goku and Gohan look good which seems to have been the intent.
and with the exception of a few re-used animation scenes, it was a highlight of the arc. I'd rather have Piccolo share screen-time in a great episode, than have him be the sole star of a bad or mediocre one.
He did not simple share,Goku got half of the episode dedicated to his fight,Piccolo got 3 minutes of screentime and Gohan got all the rest.
You can like it if you want but that does not change that his biggest moment was 3 minutes him long while 18 got a whole episode dedicated to her.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:47 am

Whatever wrote: *5th strongest* goku,Vegeta,Freeza and 17 are the 4 strongerst of U7
I don't think 17 is stronger than Gohan, but I sooo don't care to get into a power level debate. Point still stands.
Nobody,not even Obuni and Gowasu cared about him being eliminated.
Yes, because fodder. I barely remember anyone 18 eliminated aside Ribrianne. So point still stands.
Character wise they were clearly meant for Piccolo but Gohan still got most of the fight between them.
Why, because they were namekians? They could've just brought one, but they came as a pair.
Because he really wasn't.
Yeah, I disagree. Heavily. Note, I'm not referring to the whole episode, but to the U6 part of it.
Piccolo did not even fight them hand to hand after they went full power and only fired a SBC at them,so yeah support.
Yes he did, but Pirina overpowered him. And if combat is all you focus one, then you're missing my point entirely.
Not to mention that the studio brought their A game to this episode
He did not simple share,Goku got half of the episode dedicated to his fight,Piccolo got 3 minutes of screentime and Gohan got all the rest.
You can like it if you want but that does not change that his biggest moment was 3 minutes him long while 18 got a whole episode dedicated to her.
Yes, a pretty average one, at best. Animation, writing, directing etc. It's what I said, I'd rather have a fav's highlight be part of a great, memorable episode rather than give them a really bad one all to themselves. Not to mention that the namekian fight was drawn over several episodes since 111 and they only reached the conclusion at 118. The three minute argument doesn't really hold water imo. And Gohan certainly didn't appear in 118 any more than Piccolo. He barley even spoke. You can try and convince me otherwise, but to me Piccolo was definitely focused on more than Gohan in 118 character-wise.


To bring this on topic, #17 getting so much love is actually a good sign for those characters the fandom thought would never be relevant again. I know the self-sacrifice bit puts a small damper on it somewhat, but it's still doesn't change that he was treated exceptionally well.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Michsi wrote:Here's the thing though. Now that we saw it was all supposed to lead up to a moment of self-sacrifice, people might retroactively look at his role a bit differently. "Ah, so that's why they've been shining all this light on him." As for now, he's definitely the dark horse of the arc, I'd even say he might have upstaged Freeza in the latest episodes (Freeza has all these expectations to live up to, so it's going to be harder in his case)
Honestly while I can be wrong about this..............I don't think Android #17 is really dead.

Even blowing yourself up, to confirm dead in most shows you really need a body or a way to be certain one is not alive anymore. It is the Walking Dead Rule I call it. Their is no body or pieces, it seem way to clean of a death IMO. Also it would fit with 17's style of smarter not harder fighting. I can see 17 playing possum in a effort to catch Jiren off guard in the final seconds of the fight when he is more weak from Fighting Vegeta, Goku and Freeza and KO him during that moment. It be a backdoor and really interesting way in giving 17 the Win for U7 in the ToP.

I know I easily can be wrong, but I have not gone full into 17 being dead, just seems like more likely he is playing a game here to fight smarter and get Jiren when he is weaker.
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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:09 am

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Michsi wrote:Here's the thing though. Now that we saw it was all supposed to lead up to a moment of self-sacrifice, people might retroactively look at his role a bit differently. "Ah, so that's why they've been shining all this light on him." As for now, he's definitely the dark horse of the arc, I'd even say he might have upstaged Freeza in the latest episodes (Freeza has all these expectations to live up to, so it's going to be harder in his case)
Honestly while I can be wrong about this..............I don't think Android #17 is really dead.

Even blowing yourself up, to confirm dead in most shows you really need a body or a way to be certain one is not alive anymore. It is the Walking Dead Rule I call it. Their is no body or pieces, it seem way to clean of a death IMO. Also it would fit with 17's style of smarter not harder fighting. I can see 17 playing possum in a effort to catch Jiren off guard in the final seconds of the fight when he is more weak from Fighting Vegeta, Goku and Freeza and KO him during that moment. It be a backdoor and really interesting way in giving 17 the Win for U7 in the ToP.

I know I easily can be wrong, but I have not gone full into 17 being dead, just seems like more likely he is playing a game here to fight smarter and get Jiren when he is weaker.
It's a possibility, and it sure would be better for him if it's true, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Most likely we won't see a body or anything like that purely because the show now avoids such images. If they're reluctant to show blood they sure won't show body parts (unless they're from namekians. Poor Piccolo...) It's a Sunday morning show now as opposed to Z. Even at its darkest, Super was careful not to be be too visually intense.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by H3ct0r_17 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:46 am

Michsi wrote:
CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Michsi wrote:Here's the thing though. Now that we saw it was all supposed to lead up to a moment of self-sacrifice, people might retroactively look at his role a bit differently. "Ah, so that's why they've been shining all this light on him." As for now, he's definitely the dark horse of the arc, I'd even say he might have upstaged Freeza in the latest episodes (Freeza has all these expectations to live up to, so it's going to be harder in his case)
Honestly while I can be wrong about this..............I don't think Android #17 is really dead.

Even blowing yourself up, to confirm dead in most shows you really need a body or a way to be certain one is not alive anymore. It is the Walking Dead Rule I call it. Their is no body or pieces, it seem way to clean of a death IMO. Also it would fit with 17's style of smarter not harder fighting. I can see 17 playing possum in a effort to catch Jiren off guard in the final seconds of the fight when he is more weak from Fighting Vegeta, Goku and Freeza and KO him during that moment. It be a backdoor and really interesting way in giving 17 the Win for U7 in the ToP.

I know I easily can be wrong, but I have not gone full into 17 being dead, just seems like more likely he is playing a game here to fight smarter and get Jiren when he is weaker.
It's a possibility, and it sure would be better for him if it's true, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Most likely we won't see a body or anything like that purely because the show now avoids such images. If they're reluctant to show blood they sure won't show body parts (unless they're from namekians. Poor Piccolo...) It's a Sunday morning show now as opposed to Z. Even at its darkest, Super was careful not to be be too visually intense.
I'd say it's a 50/50 chance of him being alive. For all we know, he could have escaped the explosion but probably injured under some rocks right now, just waiting for the right opportunity to strike Jiren, since it was stated multiple times that android's ki can't be sensed. On the other hand, his sacrifice scene would certainly cheapen, not to mention his selfdestruct explosion was powerful enough to stop Jiren's giant blast as Old Kai said, meaning he really put all his energy on it.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Amir » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:47 pm

The reason 17 getting so strong doesn't make sense to people is because SSJB is not just another form you can rival by training, it took Goku 3 years in the ROSAT, training with Whis to control your ki better, (wasn't it a plot point in episode 16 that regular intense training won't do at this point?) God Ritual and more devine training, so by making 17 so strong just by training, assuming he still works his fair share amount of time as a park ranger, it makes all the devine training and god ki stuff look meaningless.

But I guess it's been meaningless ever since Golden Frieza showed up so...

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Jackalope89 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:36 pm

Amir wrote:The reason 17 getting so strong doesn't make sense to people is because SSJB is not just another form you can rival by training, it took Goku 3 years in the ROSAT, training with Whis to control your ki better, (wasn't it a plot point in episode 16 that regular intense training won't do at this point?) God Ritual and more devine training, so by making 17 so strong just by training, assuming he still works his fair share amount of time as a park ranger, it makes all the devine training and god ki stuff look meaningless.

But I guess it's been meaningless ever since Golden Frieza showed up so...
Well, barring 18, 17 has a certain advantage over pretty much everyone else, in that he has unlimited energy. He still gets stronger, but never gets tired.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Amir » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:38 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
Amir wrote:The reason 17 getting so strong doesn't make sense to people is because SSJB is not just another form you can rival by training, it took Goku 3 years in the ROSAT, training with Whis to control your ki better, (wasn't it a plot point in episode 16 that regular intense training won't do at this point?) God Ritual and more devine training, so by making 17 so strong just by training, assuming he still works his fair share amount of time as a park ranger, it makes all the devine training and god ki stuff look meaningless.

But I guess it's been meaningless ever since Golden Frieza showed up so...
Well, barring 18, 17 has a certain advantage over pretty much everyone else, in that he has unlimited energy. He still gets stronger, but never gets tired.
But we all know he hadn't been training non-stop 24/7, so I think it's irrelevant. In fact, with him having a job, he might spend less time training than Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Android 17: One of the best things to come out of DBS

Post by Ziegander » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:59 pm

Actually if 17 shows back up alive to kick Jiren's shit I'll applaud. He really has been the sleeper darkhorse of the tournament and all-around most likeable character in the arena. From his dry, witty quips, to his quick-thinking and never-say-die drive to succeed even in the face of Jiren, Android 17 has really grown on me. At first I thought it was stupid that he could be that powerful, stupid that he could even touch Toppo, let alone survive a few seconds against Jiren, but by the end of episode 127, the only thing I thought was stupid was that he died. I had become so invested in his character by that point, and the way the show handled the sacrifice? Just mind-numbingly awful writing and directing. It could not have been handled worse.

1) The show has spent dozens of episodes convincing us 17 is cool. 2) The character growth and depth they achieved with 17 has been astonishing. 3) They succeeded, viewers are now HUGE fans of 17 and love seeing him in episodes. But 4) They killed him off just when we all started to love the guy! What do they gain from this? There was no reason for it in-universe. His barrier could have been just strong enough to ablate Jiren's blast and leave his secondary barriers to simply be pushed aside as he got eliminated. No one else in the tournament has been killed or killed themselves. There was no precedent set for this and no reason 17 should have had to destroy himself to repel Jiren's attack, so it just doesn't make sense. But from a writing/directing standpoint? If that was their goal, to convince us that the only way 17 was going to protect Goku and Vegeta was to blow himself up, set us up with some dialogue maybe? Maybe a red-orange glow starts to play over him and 18 shouts at him, "17! No! What are you thinking?!" Then he has the line about giving up on his cruise. THEN, maybe give us some indication that he's actually blown himself up? Haaa!! Then a flash of white light as Jiren's attack passes over him and some rocks fly... It just looked like Jiren's attack obliterated the arena. Show don't tell. If you can't properly animate 17 blowing himself up and then you have to tell us that he did so we know that's what happened, guys, that's a massive failure. This is a series known for massive explosions. How is this hard? 17 self-destructing was stupid just as a franchise move, but narratively it was unnecessary and given no precedent and was executed pathetically by the animation, writing and directing.

Android 17 was awesome and his sacrifice was stupid. #singlemanlytear
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