What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

[MKCSTEALTH]

Super has had progression in character development. For some. Gohan, though not back to his prime, has returned to form in some regard. Vegeta has continued to progress as a character. Goku I feel has become rather stagnant. He just wants to fight stronger guys and hasn't gone through what he did in Z. It's just been the next big challenge.

I do hope that if we get another series or a continuation of Super, they'll go past the end of Z, we can put some of the old cast on the back burner, and we get characters like Uub, Pan, Teen Trunks and Teen Goten shining, while having Vegeta and Goku in somewhat of a mentor role. Time will tell

[Akyon]

Yeah, I think it's a bit unfair to say the connection between arcs is a bad thing.

Early DBZ is a great example:
Raditz comes to Earth to look for his brother
Goku dies fighting him
Piccolo tells Raditz about the Dragonballs to taunt him
Vegeta and Nappa overhear about the balls, they're coming to Earth now
Vegeta reveals Piccolo is a Namekian and about the legend of the Dragonballs being connected to his species
Nappa murders pretty much all the Z fighters
Nappa is killed, Vegeta and Goku fight, Vegeta is allowed to live, Goku barely survives
Krillin and Gohan who are left alive come up with the plan to travel to Piccolo's home planet to obtain their Dragonballs to revive their friends
Frieza meanwhile has overheard about the Dragonballs and came up with the same plan as Krillin and Gohan

Personally I loved how every action affected the timeline rather than a monster of the week style thing with disconnected arcs. That was my major issue with Buu coming right the hell out of no where. At least the androids had the flimsy excuse of the Red Ribbon Army, a tale of revenge and then Cell being made of all the powerful opponents up until then.

Lack of character growth? Neither Vegeta, Krillin, Future Trunks nor Tien or even Gohan act exactly like they did Z. Characters like Krillin, Tien, Roshi and thesupporting cast in general got more development in Super than they did in Z. What get moments did those three had in Z that's missing in Super.

I dunno about Tenshinhan and Roshi, but Krillin took control of the Namek situation being forced into a stealthy leader role where he and Gohan prevented both Vegeta and Frieza from conquering the universe through sneak tactics with the Dragonballs, he also had to make a pretty tough call to team up with Vegeta if they were to stand a ghost of a chance against Frieza. Bear in mind that Krillin was the one who wanted to kill Vegeta back on Earth, so he didn't trust him at all.
He's also the only Z fighter to suggest they use the threat of the Androids to keep Vegeta from murdering everyone or taking over the Earth, was the first person to see the good in the Androids whilst everyone else was attacking them based on Trunks warning. His kindness ends up netting him a wife making him into arguably the best canon dad in Z, and he 'could' be responsible for why 17 and 18 don't end up taking the same route they did in Trunks' future further down the line.

Overall I'd say Z took the previously sneaky, selfish and underhanded Krillin of Dragonball days and took that pragmatism and made him into something of a tactician and the person who understood the importance of team work.

Krillin got decent development in Z as a character even if he didn't get many shining moments in combat. Not that I haven't enjoyed the Krillin focused episodes in Super, they've been a delight, but Krillin's been a character that's been developed over the course of the series just far far more subtly than the likes of Vegeta and Piccolo.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Jesus Christ, its like fans mostly whine just to whine, without any critical thinking.

I never said there was no characterization.

I said Zamasu was never brought up outside of his arc it introducing Zeno at all. I would have liked them to do better at connecting events.
I also said most of Super doesn't have arcs with connecting plots. Segwaying into initiating new arcs is not the same thing. Cell was brought up in the Buu arc as to how they judged how strong they all were since then, that Majin Vegeta disliked that Gohan surpassed him then, and got weaker strong Dabura was and wed him to judge how strong Dabura was and why Gohan was underpreforming. He was not plot relevant but they didn't act as if it never happened.

The Buu saga didn't connect Buu to the main characters, but he was supposed to be disconnected because they didn't take him seriously at first. They underestimated him because they didn't know who he was and, them helping the Supreme kai was out of curiosity. Goku wasn't even planning to actually deal with it and Vegeta barely wanted to consider it, but rather fight Goku. The plot made better use of that.

I also said that the characterization was circular with the characters because most of their focuses are not knew, just restated again. Gohan gave up fighting yet again after BoG, got weak and had to relearn again for example. Vegeta also doing the Final explosion again and the multiple reminders hes thinking about Cabba and his family are also redundant for him to do over and over again. You claimed I said there was no characterization.

[oozaru goku]

Don't know why but it's like they're avoiding to get through the eoz period. Even after this ToP arc looks like they still don't skip the timeline to the point after uub came or anything. I don't know if it's because they tried to change goku's gi before and failed (If they skipped the time through eoz then they should've actually changed actually the gi) before or they're not confident enough to write a story with many new genaration characters and left the old one gone

[kn83]

I never said there was no characterization.

Just general lack of coherency and an actual story that connects to anything, really made it uninteresting to me. I don't like how isolated all these scenarios are or how they just appear out of thin air and have nothing relating to prior ones. There there is also the lack of real characterization in it. Everything I found in Super is just redundant character points retreated from the Buu arc or things that they do specifically to appeal to fans and not growth of the characters. The episodic feel of it and lack of coherency makes even the shallow plots they have now even harder to follow, beyond the sake of curiosity or fan loyalty. Super just has no substance and writers who don't seem to understand Z at all.

You were saying?

[DragonHermit]

Nah, come on. I think Super's plot and writing is pretty subpar, but characterisation is one of the best, if not the best trait. I don't think Z has superior characterisation to Super, simply because Super was more self aware.

Z had amazing plots up until Cell imo. The Saiyan arc, Namek arc, and Trunks arc, were the most interesting plot in all of manga/anime for me. That's what Super lacked. It was continued the decline from the Buu saga of bad plot (apart from FT arc).

[DragonHermit]

Super lacks development of the characters. Please tell me how Vegeta and Goku develop as characters. You can't because they haven't. And don't give me that whole Vegeta caring for his family junk because thats not NEW. Ever since the Buu Arc he has always cared about his family. Him repeating it over and over is NOT development. Goku first selfless act when he helped Upa revive his father is development. Gohan becoming brave in the Saiyan Arc is development. Hell Vegeta respect speech about Goku being #1 is development.

Objectively false.

[The Patrolman]

Super lacks development of the characters. Please tell me how Vegeta and Goku develop as characters. You can't because they haven't. And don't give me that whole Vegeta caring for his family junk because thats not NEW. Ever since the Buu Arc he has always cared about his family. Him repeating it over and over is NOT development. Goku first selfless act when he helped Upa revive his father is development. Gohan becoming brave in the Saiyan Arc is development. Hell Vegeta respect speech about Goku being #1 is development.

Objectively false.

Care to explain

[Mister_Popo]

Honestly excluding the aging and lack of natural changes like you mentioned, I think the battle damage (or lack there of) bothers me the most.

Look at Goku and Vegeta at the end of their fight in the Saiyan Saga. They were FUCKED UP.

Now look a Goku and Vegeta in ep127 of Super. It looks like they're barely been harmed! There's little to no scratches, let alone blood.

You're definetely right about that. I don't think this is a Japan issue. They really aren't shocked by a drop of blood over there ... even with an early time slot. Look at One Piece for instance with the impaled heads ...

That's a result of the intention to market Dragon Ball for a very broad world wide audition. To protect mothers for seeing their 7-year-old from seeing a drop of blood. Jiren however almost being punched in half by MUI Goku while smahed through tons of rock apparently poses no problem at all.

BS. Most mainstream successful anime are marketed to a global audience, including One Piece, Naruto and Attack on Titan (all are of the same demographic as Dragonball) and other anime with blood. So that doesn't explain the lack of blood in Super (while there was plenty of it in Z, the Original and GT).

DBZ wasn't meant for such young ages, or wasn't targetted to such a broad audience.I think TOEI now realized DBS is by far their biggest hit in the West and America, they want it to fit for a very young US or European audience as well, and make sure censorhsip (like with Z, Naruto ...) isn't needed so it can be shown integrally on cartoon networks. They didn't know it was that populair wordwide 30 years ago when they just started to air DB and DBZ in Japan. They now know better than in the past the franchise has massive marketing value for a much broader audience, which influences what they tend to show or not tend to show (Hollywood-effect).

Anyway i just think it's debatable you do show very graphic violence and agression, but the results of that violence like blood can't be shown. By doing so you even give a false message to kids that violence as such doesn't have that kind of an impact and maybe isn't 'that bad'.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I never said there was no characterization.

Just general lack of coherency and an actual story that connects to anything, really made it uninteresting to me. I don't like how isolated all these scenarios are or how they just appear out of thin air and have nothing relating to prior ones. There there is also the lack of real characterization in it. Everything I found in Super is just redundant character points retreated from the Buu arc or things that they do specifically to appeal to fans and not growth of the characters. The episodic feel of it and lack of coherency makes even the shallow plots they have now even harder to follow, beyond the sake of curiosity or fan loyalty. Super just has no substance and writers who don't seem to understand Z at all.

You were saying?

Fine, maybe I wasn't making myself clear on this. It is untrue to say characters did not have development or characterization at all or anything progressing off of Z. Character usage on the other hand or what aspects of their characters might be retreated or how the development into the things they had in Super, to my displeasure is what is debatable.

[Lord Beerus]

Super lacks development of the characters. Please tell me how Vegeta and Goku develop as characters. You can't because they haven't. And don't give me that whole Vegeta caring for his family junk because thats not NEW. Ever since the Buu Arc he has always cared about his family. Him repeating it over and over is NOT development. Goku first selfless act when he helped Upa revive his father is development. Gohan becoming brave in the Saiyan Arc is development. Hell Vegeta respect speech about Goku being #1 is development.

Objectively false.

Care to explain

Beerus, Hit, Cabba, Future Trunks, Future Mai, Zamasu, Goku Black, Jiren, Toppo, Kale, Caulifla, Freeza, #17....

That's only some of the characters in Super who received character development.

[The Patrolman]

Objectively false.

Care to explain

Beerus, Hit, Cabba, Future Trunks, Future Mai, Zamasu, Goku Black, Jiren, Toppo, Kale, Caulifla, Freeza, #17....

That's only some of the characters in Super who received character development.

I was kinda focusing on Goku and Vegeta but I ask how did Future Trunks and Mai develop.