Why could Goku achieve UI but Vegeta couldn't?

[Amir]

If you want to deny the actual story of Dragonball why Toriyama stated Goku is better than Vegeta, why Vegeta calls number one and the reasoning behind why Goku continues to stay ahead of Vegeta and remains the best fighter, thats your problem and not an issue with the story or characters. To be coarse, you're just crying because a result didnt turn out how you want it. Its that simple.

Ignoring the story and saying a character became someway because of the story (of course! Everything happens because of the story O_o ) is just your way of coping. Have fun with being mad at nothing.

I'm not denying anything, the whole point of Goku pushing himself while Vegeta is pushing down others has been irrelevant since the Buu saga. Goku's way of accessing UI had nothing to do with his training before hand, nor did it have anything to do with him thinking less, it was just because he broke through his shell and tapping into his hidden power, something Vegeta did too but his power was much weaker.

Judging by your rude words in the end I can see it's pointless to have a discussion about it and the one who's mad here is you because I don't accept bad things. Whatever.

[Kaiosama]

If you want to deny the actual story of Dragonball why Toriyama stated Goku is better than Vegeta, why Vegeta calls number one and the reasoning behind why Goku continues to stay ahead of Vegeta and remains the best fighter, thats your problem and not an issue with the story or characters. To be coarse, you're just crying because a result didnt turn out how you want it. Its that simple.

Ignoring the story and saying a character became someway because of the story (of course! Everything happens because of the story O_o ) is just your way of coping. Have fun with being mad at nothing.

Agreed. It's mind boggling that people can't accept that Vegeta's role is to always be a step behind Goku. Toriyama himself said it, and Toei would never allow any other character to take away from Goku's spotlight. They already tried that with SS2 Gohan, and it was not a popular decision with the Japanese audience.

[SsjCookie]

If you want to deny the actual story of Dragonball why Toriyama stated Goku is better than Vegeta, why Vegeta calls number one and the reasoning behind why Goku continues to stay ahead of Vegeta and remains the best fighter, thats your problem and not an issue with the story or characters. To be coarse, you're just crying because a result didnt turn out how you want it. Its that simple.

Ignoring the story and saying a character became someway because of the story (of course! Everything happens because of the story O_o ) is just your way of coping. Have fun with being mad at nothing.

Agreed. It's mind boggling that people can't accept that Vegeta's role is to always be a step behind Goku. Toriyama himself said it, and Toei would never allow any other character to take away from Goku's spotlight. They already tried that with SS2 Gohan, and it was not a popular decision with the Japanese audience.

Hmm, so.....we can always expect the same outcome when it comes to Goku and Vegeta in the future?

Honestly, watching DBS is like watching Formula 1 these days, Mercedes always wins because it has the best engine.
It's dreadfully boring.

[Mercenary]

If you want to deny the actual story of Dragonball why Toriyama stated Goku is better than Vegeta, why Vegeta calls number one and the reasoning behind why Goku continues to stay ahead of Vegeta and remains the best fighter, thats your problem and not an issue with the story or characters. To be coarse, you're just crying because a result didnt turn out how you want it. Its that simple.

Ignoring the story and saying a character became someway because of the story (of course! Everything happens because of the story O_o ) is just your way of coping. Have fun with being mad at nothing.

Agreed. It's mind boggling that people can't accept that Vegeta's role is to always be a step behind Goku. Toriyama himself said it, and Toei would never allow any other character to take away from Goku's spotlight. They already tried that with SS2 Gohan, and it was not a popular decision with the Japanese audience.

Hmm, so.....we can always expect the same outcome when it comes to Goku and Vegeta in the future?

Honestly, watching DBS is like watching Formula 1 these days, Mercedes always wins because it has the best engine.
It's dreadfully boring.

Kinda is but to be fair Vegeta was on par with Goku through entire DBS (at least in the manga)

[Saturnine]

I really don't consider the "Goku is the protagonist" argument valid. Naruto is even more inarguably the main character of Naruto, because he's also the TITULAR character, and yet Sasuke was dead even with him and their final battle ended with a double KO draw, conceded by Sasuke only because Naruto succeeded in changing his mindset by showing him the lengths he'd go for him.

So even if we accept that Goku is the most important character in DB, that alone shouldn't really be used in arguments as to why he's treated better as Vegeta - since if you don't mind noticing, Goku was much less prominent in Z than he was in Super, and Vegeta in Z was way inferior to Goku. Here the show is more Goku-centric than Z, Goku is more ubiquitous, but Vegeta is much closer to him in power, arguably even stronger at times, but losing only on transformations. If the writers so wished, Vegeta could actually be superior to Goku in one arc, and nobody would really mind, except perhaps some super-avid Goku fanboys, likely spouting the "but mah protagonist!" excuse.

[SsjCookie]

I really don't consider the "Goku is the protagonist" argument valid. Naruto is even more inarguably the main character of Naruto, because he's also the TITULAR character, and yet Sasuke was dead even with him and their final battle ended with a double KO draw, conceded by Sasuke only because Naruto succeeded in changing his mindset by showing him the lengths he'd go for him.

So even if we accept that Goku is the most important character in DB, that alone shouldn't really be used in arguments as to why he's treated better as Vegeta - since if you don't mind noticing, Goku was much less prominent in Z than he was in Super, and Vegeta in Z was way inferior to Goku.

And I never had any problems with it, Vegeta was an a-hole most of the time in DBZ and I rooted more for Goku then for Vegeta at that time anyway .
But in Z all the other cast had way more quality screentime in comparison with Super, in Super it's just all about Goku and Vegeta.
Yeah they're in the tournament but they might as well not have been, this tournament was about quantity, not about quality.
You can see the laziness of it in the re-use of the animation in the last episode.

Here the show is more Goku-centric than Z, Goku is more ubiquitous, but Vegeta is much closer to him in power, arguably even stronger at times, but losing only on transformations. If the writers so wished, Vegeta could actually be superior to Goku in one arc, and nobody would really mind, except perhaps some super-avid Goku fanboys, likely spouting the "but mah protagonist!" excuse.

It would at least make the whole dynamic a bit more interesting if Vegeta would finally reach his life goal of beating Goku in strength for a change.

[Simere]

I really don't consider the "Goku is the protagonist" argument valid. Naruto is even more inarguably the main character of Naruto, because he's also the TITULAR character, and yet Sasuke was dead even with him and their final battle ended with a double KO draw, conceded by Sasuke only because Naruto succeeded in changing his mindset by showing him the lengths he'd go for him.

So even if we accept that Goku is the most important character in DB, that alone shouldn't really be used in arguments as to why he's treated better as Vegeta - since if you don't mind noticing, Goku was much less prominent in Z than he was in Super, and Vegeta in Z was way inferior to Goku. Here the show is more Goku-centric than Z, Goku is more ubiquitous, but Vegeta is much closer to him in power, arguably even stronger at times, but losing only on transformations. If the writers so wished, Vegeta could actually be superior to Goku in one arc, and nobody would really mind, except perhaps some super-avid Goku fanboys, likely spouting the "but mah protagonist!" excuse.

Everyone in this thread who's invoked the main character argument is a Vegeta fan trying to justify his shortcomings.

[Mercenary]

I really don't consider the "Goku is the protagonist" argument valid. Naruto is even more inarguably the main character of Naruto, because he's also the TITULAR character, and yet Sasuke was dead even with him and their final battle ended with a double KO draw, conceded by Sasuke only because Naruto succeeded in changing his mindset by showing him the lengths he'd go for him.

So even if we accept that Goku is the most important character in DB, that alone shouldn't really be used in arguments as to why he's treated better as Vegeta - since if you don't mind noticing, Goku was much less prominent in Z than he was in Super, and Vegeta in Z was way inferior to Goku. Here the show is more Goku-centric than Z, Goku is more ubiquitous, but Vegeta is much closer to him in power, arguably even stronger at times, but losing only on transformations. If the writers so wished, Vegeta could actually be superior to Goku in one arc, and nobody would really mind, except perhaps some super-avid Goku fanboys, likely spouting the "but mah protagonist!" excuse.

Everyone in this thread who's invoked the main character argument is a Vegeta fan trying to justify his shortcomings.

Because Goku fanboys don't mind Goku hogging the spotlight all the time. That's why.

[Saturnine]

Everyone in this thread who's invoked the main character argument is a Vegeta fan trying to justify his shortcomings.

You never saw Naruto fans appeal to him being the titular character as a justification (or requirement) of him being stronger than Sasuke. Not many were bothered by the fact that he wasn't, either

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I know this isn't the In-Universe board, but I'd prefer to at least humour the idea of symbolic and factual in-universe reasoning for why Goku attained the Ultra Instinct over Vegeta.

[SsjCookie]

I know this isn't the In-Universe board, but I'd prefer to at least humour the idea of symbolic and factual in-universe reasoning for why Goku attained the Ultra Instinct over Vegeta.

Why indeed.
They both had the same training by Whi's and Beerus so that's not it, they have roughly the same strength in Super.

Goku is more in tune with his body and mind then Vegeta is.
Vegeta thinks too much about the pressure of keeping a promise and protecting his family.

Whi's once pointed out to vegeta that his biggest weakness is that he's too tense while fighting, while Goku's biggest weakness was that he was too relaxed.
I kinda wonder when that will be biting Goku's butt someday.

[buutenks]

Vegeta will always been one step behind Goku. It is how the plot rolls.

[Miracles]

Main character > Second fiddle.

[jplaya2023]

because of writing. Whiz said both goku and vegeta could get UI but vegeta get's an outdated ssj blue form and is no where near goku. It makes no sense.

Vegeta won't be able to compete with goku until he get's UI

[DasMuse]

I don't understand why people insist on citing that Vegeta did not get UI because of his personality, when in fact not even Goku himself got the UI in a '' conventional '' way, he was swallowed by a Genki Dama to be able to use the technique after '' breaking the shell ''.

In this case, Whis's teachings regarding the UI have no connection with Goku having awakened this technique.

And the reason Vegeta did not wake the UI is simple
script

He did the same training as Goku, participated in the same battles and was in situations as extreme as Goku. He could have awakened the UI, but he didn't use because of script.

Except that Goku can do Kaioken and Vegeta can't... That made all the difference goku's 2 fights against Hit. Vegeta was useless against hit the first time and probably would have been equally as useless the 2nd time regardless of their similar training. And don't say that the Kaioken doesn't make a difference because the toll it takes on Goku and healing/learning from that most definitely pushed him further than Vegeta.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Main character > Second fiddle.

I prefer the term "deuteragonist"

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Goku is a loose, fluid, martial arts master who is always in the moment. UI was perfect for Goku. The whole concept of UI was Goku to a tee.

Where as it's just not in Vegeta's nature to be loose and fight on instinct. Vegeta is tense, always on guard, always hyper agressive and thinking about his next move or plotting. UI completely goes against who Vegeta is

[Lord Beerus]

The same reason Goku achieved SSJ3 and Vegeta didn't in the Majin Boo arc... Goku broke his glass ceiling quicker because he's simply more naturally talented and has more good fortune on his side than Vegeta.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I don't understand why people insist on citing that Vegeta did not get UI because of his personality, when in fact not even Goku himself got the UI in a '' conventional '' way, he was swallowed by a Genki Dama to be able to use the technique after '' breaking the shell ''.

In this case, Whis's teachings regarding the UI have no connection with Goku having awakened this technique.

And the reason Vegeta did not wake the UI is simple
script

He did the same training as Goku, participated in the same battles and was in situations as extreme as Goku. He could have awakened the UI, but he didn't use because of script.

Except that Goku can do Kaioken and Vegeta can't... That made all the difference goku's 2 fights against Hit. Vegeta was useless against hit the first time and probably would have been equally as useless the 2nd time regardless of their similar training. And don't say that the Kaioken doesn't make a difference because the toll it takes on Goku and healing/learning from that most definitely pushed him further than Vegeta.

Where was it said that Vegeta can not use the Kaioken?

This is simply a technique that Goku learned from a master that Vegeta never had, but Vegeta himself never wanted to try to learn to use Kaioken and it is hard to believe that he could not currently master

And the second time Goku faced Hitto, he managed to equalize only with SSB, I do not see why Vegeta could not do the same.

[Lionel]

Dragon Ball isn't that good at disassociating power from skill -- the latter can prove to be useful in providing the right facilitation for obtaining the former, but trying to make the separation between the two in a fight isn't always a priority for the people behind DB. Power tends to be the overriding factor in any combat situation. Whatever finer points that exist between their two respective "styles" of fighting are minimal at best. Both them use the same abstract Kung-fu fighter stunts from action films back in the 70s and 80s. Ki attack wise -- they're mostly just destructive or explosive geometrically challenged blasts; the only difference between them is Goku's teleportation. If you consider that little tidbit then I suppose Goku could be considered more "skilled".

The only discernibly clear-cut examples of Goku proving to be the more talented or innovative fighter is when he's mastering a Super Saiyan form. Contrary to Vegeta's methods, he learned to acclimate to the form and normalise its use -- that's the only obvious time where Goku's superiority was demonstrated through a product of his intuition and cleverness. Most of the time Goku pulls ahead of Vegeta due to special conditions offered first to him which the prince has not been able to replicate yet. In some ways Ultra Instinct represents that exclusivist conditioning because of the nature in which Goku first tapped into that power. It has a ring of irony to itself because the Spirit Bomb is intentionally a technique that borrows the power of everything around the user, collectively piecing together to form a single powerful projectile. Goku happened to utilise that borrowed power in order to fuse his initial Ultra Instinct status.