How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

[PFM18]

what writing problems?

DBS in my opinion is on par with OG DB for the best written series. Z and GT were by far written so much worse.

GT? Yes. But Z? How?

Z had more consistent powerscaling and episode consistency. And they actually showed Goku’s growth as a character. He wasn’t just a child unlike Super. Super was good but its writing was more flawed dhan Z. Infact, Super had the problems of Z and a bit more.

Goku was always meant to be a childish idiot. Z was untrue to his character by making him into this intelligent hero character that he was never meant to be. Super fixed Z's mistakes there and then they did again by fixing Trunks' hair.

[Hugo Boss]

We all know that Super had very inconsistent writing from its characters to its power scaling. It made things pretty obvious that there ware different people writing each episode. With the likelihood of another DB tv series coming back, how will they be dealing with such problems? WAHT ARE EVEN THE ROOTS OF THESE PROBLEMS?

In order to discuss these “problems” you need to put more substance into your post. What problems are you talking about? Be more specific.

How about one episode having a character use up all their energy or even say that they’re out of power and then the next on have them back up and ready at their strongest form? How about more logical powerscaling? How about not hyping up characters just for them to be one offs like the horrible sniper of Universe 2 episode or sneaks of Universe 4 episode? Stuff like that.

Still being vague. Which episodes? How should a logical powerscaling work? For your third example, I don’t see why dozens of new characters should have more than a episode to fulfill their role.

[Doctor.]

Super is a mega-hit, they won't change it at all.

This is observably false. They clearly tried to get a better schedule for the Tournament of Power arc (even when the series was already a hit), and even after the Tournament of Power got a lot of positive reception regarding its visuals, they're still going to change things up for the movie. So, regardless of whether or not Super is a hit, there is some degree of artistic integrity that Toei is clinging to, even if it's only on the production side of things.

Goku was always meant to be a childish idiot. Z was untrue to his character by making him into this intelligent hero character that he was never meant to be. Super fixed Z's mistakes there and then they did again by fixing Trunks' hair.

This is absurd. Character development is not a bad thing. Toriyama himself turned Goku into this more "intelligent hero character" you claim he is in Z. Regardless of whether or not you believe that Goku's progression as a character was poorly handled, or whether or not it fits him, that does not excuse the blatant character regression in Super.

[ABED]

I don't believe Goku became some intelligent hero character in DBZ. He became less naïve over time because he got life experience. He was no longer in the woods all by himself. He's still a manchild, though, but now he doesn't have to pat groins to know if someone is male or female.

I can't speak to Super, but it might not be that Goku got more reckless over time, it's simply the stakes that heightened.

[AnimeNation101]

DBS in my opinion is on par with OG DB for the best written series. Z and GT were by far written so much worse.

GT? Yes. But Z? How?

Z had more consistent powerscaling and episode consistency. And they actually showed Goku’s growth as a character. He wasn’t just a child unlike Super. Super was good but its writing was more flawed dhan Z. Infact, Super had the problems of Z and a bit more.

Goku was always meant to be a childish idiot. Z was untrue to his character by making him into this intelligent hero character that he was never meant to be. Super fixed Z's mistakes there and then they did again by fixing Trunks' hair.

Lol where did you get that info because it’s defiently misinformation. No where was it said that Goku was meant too be a man-child. Like every other character, he was supposed to get character development and he did. He was shown to be fully developed by the end of Z when he became a mature man and mentor. What Super did was just take one Of Goku’s characteristics and multiply it by 10. Goku went from matured saiyan with child-ish, idiotic saiyan.

Also, Super didn’t fix Trunks hair. The problem was that Bulma was supposed to have Purple Hair. Trunks having Purple hair made more sense. Its the DB anime’s fault that Bulma’s hair color is wrong.

[SuperCyan2]

Less writers and better planning is a good start. But they will never please everyone, that's impossible for everything.

One Punch Man pleased everyone but yeah, shows from TOEI can't compare to OPM.

[Kuwabara]

Or maybe only a very vocal minority of western fans care about any of this shit.

Maybe but how would you know? You’re no more than just one person commenting something completely unproductive to my post. Anyway, I’ve seen people complain about this a lot. Not as much as how it looks because many just watch for awesome fights, but many also care about storytelling too. The fact that its a kid show doesn’t mean good writing doesn’t matter

Alright, I'll bite. "Power scaling" as it's referred to by... Fictional Battle Stats Enthusiasts (FBSEs)... Doesn't mean shit to me in a series tackling ethereal concepts like energy manipulation in relation to martial arts. The ultra meta-specifics of ideas like people shooting fire balls out of their palms, transformations, existing in multiple planes of reality, and everything else Dragon Ball's known for, totally escape mortal understanding. That said, these things clearly still resonate with many people on some kind of primal level, and for me, that's good enough. Arguing about why Fighter A should have easily stood more of chance than Fighter B in some unexceptional micro situation because of X, Y, and Z feat, is pointless and splitting hairs. My suspension of disbelief can handle exchanges between such highly volatile supernatural forces going, well, any number of ways, for any number of reasons!

Did I want and expect Tenshinhan to wipe the floor with Roshi? Sure, seems logical based on previous events. But maybe Roshi's been training, or the magic he was possessed with made enough of a difference for Tenshinhan to have not stood a chance. Plus, it caught me by surprise! Good enough, time to move on. The only thing I've ever really been uneasy about was Goku going Super Saiyan Blue against Android 17, that was pretty over the top... But then again, the whole series is over the top!

Super is worth watching for me because I think the character interactions and humor are top notch Dragon Ball. The cool fights are icing, and the overall lack of glacial pacing like in the original Z anime helps a lot too. It's frankly pretty surprising to me that so many people on the Internet seem to hate Super when most of its arcs are just as good, if not better, than Z. I'd even argue that Z has always had many of the same problems people bitch about with Super. But hey, Z gets a pass because it was my childhood!

[Baggie_Saiyan]

what writing problems?

DBS in my opinion is on par with OG DB for the best written series. Z and GT were by far written so much worse.

GT? Yes. But Z? How?

Z had more consistent powerscaling and episode consistency. And they actually showed Goku’s growth as a character. He wasn’t just a child unlike Super. Super was good but its writing was more flawed dhan Z. Infact, Super had the problems of Z and a bit more.

Goku barely changed, he was still doing idiotic things for sake of battle. Buu arc Goku is a total head scrather his character was all over the place, one minute rejects fusion the next laments it. He didn't learn from his past experiences at all. After leaving Cell to Gohan barely worked and cost Goku his life his next mission was to put his second son in danger on a flimsy fusion technique and reasoning being that he's technically dead and it's their problem which is fine if he wasn't the one to hatch Buu with his silly pissing contest with Vegeta all of a sudden he wasn't dead for that was he. Again lamented after why he didn't kill Buu.

Back on Namek Freeza betrayed him and this should have been a lesson to Goku finish the damn job, but nope any opportunity he gets he'll give a second chance. Not telling his son he's gonna fight Cell and then proceeds to erase his sons only advantage by giving Cell a senzu no consultation no nothing "hey Gohan you're fighting Cell and I'm gonna heal him cuz you're obviously me."

Vegeta from Saiyan arc to Buu arc that's growth.

Less writers and better planning is a good start. But they will never please everyone, that's impossible for everything.

One Punch Man pleased everyone but yeah, shows from TOEI can't compare to OPM.

It didn't please me. Overrated garbage in my opinion.

[PFM18]

Super is a mega-hit, they won't change it at all.

This is observably false. They clearly tried to get a better schedule for the Tournament of Power arc (even when the series was already a hit), and even after the Tournament of Power got a lot of positive reception regarding its visuals, they're still going to change things up for the movie. So, regardless of whether or not Super is a hit, there is some degree of artistic integrity that Toei is clinging to, even if it's only on the production side of things.

Goku was always meant to be a childish idiot. Z was untrue to his character by making him into this intelligent hero character that he was never meant to be. Super fixed Z's mistakes there and then they did again by fixing Trunks' hair.

This is absurd. Character development is not a bad thing. Toriyama himself turned Goku into this more "intelligent hero character" you claim he is in Z. Regardless of whether or not you believe that Goku's progression as a character was poorly handled, or whether or not it fits him, that does not excuse the blatant character regression in Super.

It is funny that you mention "Toriyama himself" as though this Hero type change was toriyama's doing. He specifically said that he didnt like how the anime portrayed Goku as a hero because that is not how he wrote him. Super corrects him by ACTUALLY making him the toriyama intended him to be

Goku isnt the conventional "hero" because he is inherently selfish in that he prioritizes his love for fighting over othet things. He is a genuinely good guy but he focuses too much on the concept of fighting itself to be a true hero.

[ABED]

f he wasn't the one to hatch Buu with his silly pissing contest with Vegeta all of a sudden he wasn't dead for that was he. Again lamented after why he didn't kill Buu

It was a retcon. SSJ3 was thought up after that battle against Vegeta.

Back on Namek Freeza betrayed him and this should have been a lesson to Goku finish the damn job, but nope any opportunity he gets he'll give a second chance. Not telling his son he's gonna fight Cell and then proceeds to erase his sons only advantage by giving Cell a senzu no consultation no nothing "hey Gohan you're fighting Cell and I'm gonna heal him cuz you're obviously me."

One, there was little reason for GOku to learn from his fight on Namek since he won. And Gohan's advantage wasn't erased by the senzu. Gohan still had a mariana's trench of hidden power that he could tap into. Even with with Cell at full power, Gohan was pretty much on par with him.

There is little reason for Goku to learn and grow because his vices haven't hindered him from achieving his goals like they did Vegeta. Even with his character growth, he's still not a superhero. He still destroys the potara and wants to fight Kid Buu.

[Doctor.]

It is funny that you mention "Toriyama himself" as though this Hero type change was toriyama's doing. He specifically said that he didnt like how the anime portrayed Goku as a hero because that is not how he wrote him. Super corrects him by ACTUALLY making him the toriyama intended him to be

Goku isnt the conventional "hero" because he is inherently selfish in that he prioritizes his love for fighting over othet things. He is a genuinely good guy but he focuses too much on the concept of fighting itself to be a true hero.

Yes, he did say that. And regardless of that, Toriyama still made Goku more heroic as an adult than he was as a kid; case in point: the Namek arc, he didn't save Freeza because he wanted to fight him again, he saved him because he's a good guy. Is he a "conventional hero"? No, I didn't say that either. I said that though Toei may have focused too much on Goku's heroic traits, his heroic traits were still there, written by Toriyama.

And like GafferTape has eloquently explained in his videos, I feel like Toei is merely trying to compensate for their portrayal of Goku in the Z films by pushing the pendulum to the opposite extreme and making Goku excessively dumb and selfish, when he's a nuanced character that can play both roles at once. What Super has done to him is nothing more than character regression.

[ABED]

It is funny that you mention "Toriyama himself" as though this Hero type change was toriyama's doing. He specifically said that he didnt like how the anime portrayed Goku as a hero because that is not how he wrote him. Super corrects him by ACTUALLY making him the toriyama intended him to be

Goku isnt the conventional "hero" because he is inherently selfish in that he prioritizes his love for fighting over othet things. He is a genuinely good guy but he focuses too much on the concept of fighting itself to be a true hero.

Yes, he did say that. And regardless of that, Toriyama still made Goku more heroic as an adult than he was as a kid; case in point: the Namek arc, he didn't save Freeza because he wanted to fight him again, he saved him because he's a good guy. Is he a "conventional hero"? No, I didn't say that either. I said that though Toei may have focused too much on Goku's heroic traits, his heroic traits were still there, written by Toriyama.

And like GafferTape has eloquently explained in his videos, I feel like Toei is merely trying to compensate for their portrayal of Goku in the Z films by pushing the pendulum to the opposite extreme and making Goku excessively dumb and selfish, when he's a nuanced character that can play both roles at once. What Super has done to him is nothing more than character regression.

No, but Goku was going to end the fight after Freeza no longer served as a challenge to him.

[PFM18]

It is funny that you mention "Toriyama himself" as though this Hero type change was toriyama's doing. He specifically said that he didnt like how the anime portrayed Goku as a hero because that is not how he wrote him. Super corrects him by ACTUALLY making him the toriyama intended him to be

Goku isnt the conventional "hero" because he is inherently selfish in that he prioritizes his love for fighting over othet things. He is a genuinely good guy but he focuses too much on the concept of fighting itself to be a true hero.

Yes, he did say that. And regardless of that, Toriyama still made Goku more heroic as an adult than he was as a kid; case in point: the Namek arc, he didn't save Freeza because he wanted to fight him again, he saved him because he's a good guy. Is he a "conventional hero"? No, I didn't say that either. I said that though Toei may have focused too much on Goku's heroic traits, his heroic traits were still there, written by Toriyama.

And like GafferTape has eloquently explained in his videos, I feel like Toei is merely trying to compensate for their portrayal of Goku in the Z films by pushing the pendulum to the opposite extreme and making Goku excessively dumb and selfish, when he's a nuanced character that can play both roles at once. What Super has done to him is nothing more than character regression.

Goku in super is completely true to his characrer and portrays that "I really want to fight and I dont care if it pits others in danger" attitude that he had in Z. Like was mentioned previously he displayed his "man child" tyoe behaviors by endangering everybody in giving Cell the Senzu bean and not learning from his mistakes on Namek

[Hugo Boss]

Arguing about why Fighter A should have easily stood more of chance than Fighter B in some unexceptional micro situation because of X, Y, and Z feat, is pointless and splitting hairs. My suspension of disbelief can handle exchanges between such highly volatile supernatural forces going, well, any number of ways, for any number of reasons!

This! I honestly don’t see the problem with crafting versus battles, it’s a fun exercise. But it seems odd to criticize the series for something so intangible.

[SuperCyan2]

If I'm being honest, the Tournament of Power arc really bored me 'cause it lasted way too long and I'd have preferred something more traditional like an adventure with mystery... Mystical Adventure. It didn't help that Jiren to me looked so bland and uninteresting and there was like a 3rd lookalike of Beerus (the second being the fat one — Champa).

I so loved the Dr. Slump special episode! I wish they would have made two or three more episodes before moving back to normal Super.

[Robo4900]

This is observably false. They clearly tried to get a better schedule for the Tournament of Power arc (even when the series was already a hit), and even after the Tournament of Power got a lot of positive reception regarding its visuals, they're still going to change things up for the movie. So, regardless of whether or not Super is a hit, there is some degree of artistic integrity that Toei is clinging to, even if it's only on the production side of things.

They fixed the animation, that's it.
If your biggest problem with Super was/is animation, then you're in the wrong thread.

[JazzMazz]

This is observably false. They clearly tried to get a better schedule for the Tournament of Power arc (even when the series was already a hit), and even after the Tournament of Power got a lot of positive reception regarding its visuals, they're still going to change things up for the movie. So, regardless of whether or not Super is a hit, there is some degree of artistic integrity that Toei is clinging to, even if it's only on the production side of things.

They fixed the animation, that's it.
If your biggest problem with Super was/is animation, then you're in the wrong thread.

No, they not only tried fixing the animation quality, they changed their overall approach to how they wanted to handle the tournament. They considered how they wanted to potray things, and tried make the direction as engaging as possible(something that is absolutely vital).

Personally, I think more communication between directors, and a stronger and better planned core staff would solve a lot of the problems faced within the show in terms of writing. If directors have more time to think about the message they want to communicate, they can consistently present that message and idea in their episodes. Same goes for script writers.

Basically, better planning is what would be needed to do things like improve basic consistency.

[Robo4900]

No, they not only tried fixing the animation quality, they changed their overall approach to how they wanted to handle the tournament. They considered how they wanted to potray things, and tried make the direction as engaging as possible(something that is absolutely vital).

Sure, and from a presentation perspective, these are big things.
But the presentation wes never the problem outside of a few episodes in the BOG and RF arcs. Super's main problems are in writing, and that hasn't even slightly been addressed so far in the run.

Personally, I think more communication between directors, and a stronger and better planned core staff would solve a lot of the problems faced within the show in terms of writing. If directors have more time to think about the message they want to communicate, they can consistently present that message and idea in their episodes. Same goes for script writers.

Basically, better planning is what would be needed to do things like improve basic consistency.

Better communication with the directors doesn't fix a plot that simply doesn't work. No amount of clever staging could fix how much of an ass-pull the Spirit Sword was. Stuff like that needs at least a full rewrite of the scene concerning it.

[JazzMazz]

No, they not only tried fixing the animation quality, they changed their overall approach to how they wanted to handle the tournament. They considered how they wanted to potray things, and tried make the direction as engaging as possible(something that is absolutely vital).

Sure, and from a presentation perspective, these are big things.
But the presentation wes never the problem outside of a few episodes in the BOG and RF arcs. Super's main problems are in writing, and that hasn't even slightly been addressed so far in the run.

Personally, I think more communication between directors, and a stronger and better planned core staff would solve a lot of the problems faced within the show in terms of writing. If directors have more time to think about the message they want to communicate, they can consistently present that message and idea in their episodes. Same goes for script writers.

Basically, better planning is what would be needed to do things like improve basic consistency.

Better communication with the directors doesn't fix a plot that simply doesn't work. No amount of clever staging could fix how much of an ass-pull the Spirit Sword was. Stuff like that needs at least a full rewrite of the scene concerning it.

I would argue that presentation has always been an area of improvement for the show and I think the TOP in particular drew attention to that fact.

I'm not saying better presentation would fix a plot that is stupid, but it would certainly make it considerably more bearable, if the themes and idea's were consistently structured and plotted throughout the arc, and foreshadowing was established between episodes to set up major plot points like that.

I personally think the TOP is certainly the arc that could best benefitted from better presentation, communication and planning. I would say there was nothing inherently wrong narratively with the TOP, however, the main criticisms and causes for boredom lie in its disjointed presentation and a lot continuity hic-ups that occur between episodes.

If the TOP had a more coherent and structured presentation, I think we can all agree it would have benefitted greatly on the whole and probably could have turned the arc into something at least somewhat watchable.

[Robo4900]

I would argue that presentation has always been an area of improvement for the show and I think the TOP in particular drew attention to that fact.

I'm not saying better presentation would fix a plot that is stupid, but it would certainly make it considerably more bearable, if the themes and idea's were consistently structured and plotted throughout the arc, and foreshadowing was established between episodes to set up major plot points like that.

I personally think the TOP is certainly the arc that could best benefitted from better presentation, communication and planning. I would say there was nothing inherently wrong narratively with the TOP, however, the main criticisms and causes for boredom lie in its disjointed presentation and a lot continuity hic-ups that occur between episodes.

If the TOP had a more coherent and structured presentation, I think we can all agree it would have benefitted greatly on the whole and probably could have turned the arc into something at least somewhat watchable.

Except...
[spoiler]What about all the universes getting revived? All the tension in the entire arc being undercut in one moment, much in the same way as the Black arc.[/spoiler]