The themes of trust and selflessness in the last episode of the ToP clash with the rest of the arc

[Doctor.]

Okay, so this has been on my mind for a while. It's undeniable that the beginning of the Tournament of Power established that Goku & co are all very selfish individuals, with their own desires and motivations, and who will absolutely not work together. Goku starts the entire tournament by selfishly disobeying Beerus and selfishly going to the Omni-King and asking for the tournament over his selfish desire to fight strong people. Whether or not this actually saves the universes' lives is irrelevant, since what matters here is Goku's selfish motivation. Hell, even "Migatte no Gokui" translates to something related to selfishness or ego or something, right?

Then you jump straight to the end of the arc and you have this theme of selflessness being thrown around. That's fine. Taken in isolation, themes of trust and selflessness and change due to Goku's influence can fit the series; and there's nothing necessarily wrong with establishing a premise at the start of the arc only to prove it wrong by the time you finish. The problem is that it doesn't feel earned. There's really no point of transition, no sense of progression between the selfish cunts at the start and the selfless saviors at the end. There's just a stark thematic contrast between the last few episodes of the ToP and the first few dozen.

[ToshioWrites]

Nakamura wanted kids to learn from Goku vs Jiren fight so this whole "trust and power of friendship" stuff was hammed up the last couple episodes

[batistabus]

It's like how Goku was absent for the birth of his children but would die for them. These characters exhibit qualities of both extremes.

[Kataphrut]

I think Roshi explained it better; it's not so much that Goku draws power from his friends, but that everyone present at the Tournament has helped him get to where he was in some way or another.

You're right that there wasn't a clear thoroughline between the beginning of the arc where everyone was acting selfish versus the ending where that became the major theme, but it's not without base. It's worth noting that despite the initial difficulty, most of Team Universe 7's victories came from teamwork.

[SsjCookie]

Okay, so this has been on my mind for a while. It's undeniable that the beginning of the Tournament of Power established that Goku & co are all very selfish individuals, with their own desires and motivations, and who will absolutely not work together. Goku starts the entire tournament by selfishly disobeying Beerus and selfishly going to the Omni-King and asking for the tournament over his selfish desire to fight strong people. Whether or not this actually saves the universes' lives is irrelevant, since what matters here is Goku's selfish motivation. Hell, even "Migatte no Gokui" translates to something related to selfishness or ego or something, right?

Then you jump straight to the end of the arc and you have this theme of selflessness being thrown around. That's fine. Taken in isolation, themes of trust and selflessness and change due to Goku's influence can fit the series; and there's nothing necessarily wrong with establishing a premise at the start of the arc only to prove it wrong by the time you finish. The problem is that it doesn't feel earned. There's really no point of transition, no sense of progression between the selfish cunts at the start and the selfless saviors at the end. There's just a stark thematic contrast between the last few episodes of the ToP and the first few dozen.

It doesn't really hit home with me either.
It's like saving a puppy from drowning, but only after you kicked it in the water in the first place.

[Hawk9211]

Same with troppo abandoning justice. The start is there,the end is there but the middle is nowhere.However in my opinion:

The journey is more beautiful than the destination.

Don't remember who said that, but is fits.

[SonReggie]

Whilst it was said in the BoG movie and I can't recall whether the same was said in the 'Super' adapted episode, Goku getting his power from others also contradicts how he felt about having to rely on others to give him the power to achieve the SSG form.

[BlueBasilisk]

Whilst it was said in the BoG movie and I can't recall whether the same was said in the 'Super' adapted episode, Goku getting his power from others also contradicts how he felt about having to rely on others to give him the power to achieve the SSG form.

Goku didn't like it because the others literally gave their power to him to achieve Super Saiyan God but he still used it because he needed it to defend them from Beerus. Ultra Instinct wasn't like that.

[Torturephile]

Whilst it was said in the BoG movie and I can't recall whether the same was said in the 'Super' adapted episode, Goku getting his power from others also contradicts how he felt about having to rely on others to give him the power to achieve the SSG form.

Goku didn't express any dissatisfaction with how he achieved SSJ in Super, if fact, he liked the power he got out of it.

[Master Xar]

Okay, so this has been on my mind for a while. It's undeniable that the beginning of the Tournament of Power established that Goku & co are all very selfish individuals, with their own desires and motivations, and who will absolutely not work together. Goku starts the entire tournament by selfishly disobeying Beerus and selfishly going to the Omni-King and asking for the tournament over his selfish desire to fight strong people. Whether or not this actually saves the universes' lives is irrelevant, since what matters here is Goku's selfish motivation. Hell, even "Migatte no Gokui" translates to something related to selfishness or ego or something, right?

Then you jump straight to the end of the arc and you have this theme of selflessness being thrown around. That's fine. Taken in isolation, themes of trust and selflessness and change due to Goku's influence can fit the series; and there's nothing necessarily wrong with establishing a premise at the start of the arc only to prove it wrong by the time you finish. The problem is that it doesn't feel earned. There's really no point of transition, no sense of progression between the selfish cunts at the start and the selfless saviors at the end. There's just a stark thematic contrast between the last few episodes of the ToP and the first few dozen.

That depends on mostly how you interpret how selfishness and selflessness clash and interact as contrasts and comparisons. Let’s look at Goku for example. He is not 100% selfish or selfless, he has a poison that slips in through the cracks.

My interpretation of the theme is that sometimes selfishness can fall into the grand picture to being selfless, of purity, every single one of Goku’s allies have been selfish one way or another, some even borderline sociopathic, yet through a mix of selfishness and selflessness from both Goku and themselves have purified themselves in some way. Even Freeza, in some way came out a TINY bit more pure then he was when he first met Goku.

Goku often faces a challenge out of selfishness like for instance not wishing to find Gero and kill him before he makes the androids, but does it to be a stronger person he was the other day, and if he didn’t do that he’d stand no chance against Buu nor anybody else on the planet.

Or the best example of selfless selfishness, Goku letting his sons handle Buu, he was being selfish and reckless in his decision at the time, but in the grand picture of things he was being selfless for thinking in the grand picture of things instead of having to have them rely on him all the time.

The theme to me is that sometimes being selfish can result in good things, that like a lot of things selfishness and selflessness isn’t black and white and either/or could lead into good things in the longrun. If Goku was 100% in either he’d have been dead and gone a long time ago.

[Cipher]

Toriyama's work, Dragon Ball in particularly, always lets issues of selfishness and moral growth interact cleverly—maybe cheekily. His protagonists are often selfish, and the central ones often undergo little (or even negative, in Goku's case) traditional moral growth. However, the purity of their characters, in terms of drive, helps them forge new connections, and those secondary characters often wind up undergoing some sort of moral growth in the "hero's" stead.

In that light, I think the way the Tournament of Power handles these themes is pure Dragon Ball. Goku selfishly risks the universe by going to Zeno in his boredom. He attains an ability that literally has "selfish" in its title. At the same time, he inspires both #17 and Freeza to be less selfish—he inspires Jiren to consider the weight of connections. None of this seemingly contradictory material is really in contradiction with Toriyama's works, which have always acquitted themselves nicely: a bunch of selfish weirdos come together through sheer interia or drive, and though they may not grow morally, they at least forge new connections with each other and the world, which leads to some sort of accidental good.

Goku's drive making everyone but Goku a better person? That's it; that's the series.

That said, all of this is handled terribly in the TV version of Super. You have to just take it from the resolution and reading between the lines. The premise is nice, but a lot of the scripting is iffy.

(Edit -- It's also important that these themes never be verbalized, as that's part of what makes them feel a bit more sincere and dodge the risk of moralizing, which is why a certain moment in episode 130 ruffled so many feathers, most of all mine.)

[Lord Beerus]

But when it actually came to Universe 7 fighting in the Tournament of Power, the team actually were very much selfless and trustworthy of one another. Hell, Freeza epitomizes this more than anything by saving Goku from being eliminated twice and giving him enough energy to make sure he wasn't running on empty after using Ultra Instinct for the first time. No to mention the Genki Dama that was created, which served as an avenues for Goku even attaining Ultra Instinct in the first place, was only possible because everyone on Team Universe 7 (except Vegeta) gave him the energy required for it. Hell, in Episode 84, after witnessing #18 coming in to help Krillin his Kamehameha beam struggle against Goku, Goku came to learn something from that moment that he didn't know beforehand, the need for trust and teamwork.

[Doctor.]

That said, all of this is handled terribly in the TV version of Super. You have to just take it from the resolution and reading between the lines. The premise is nice, but a lot of the scripting is iffy.

Yes, that's what I said. The themes fit the series, for sure. The problem is that, however good the climax may be, the themes being presented don't really feel earned in the overall context of the arc and its premise.

[Marlowe89]

That said, all of this is handled terribly in the TV version of Super. You have to just take it from the resolution and reading between the lines. The premise is nice, but a lot of the scripting is iffy.

Strongly agreed. There are so many scripting, pacing and structural issues within the Tournament of Power itself (and hell, even its prelude phases) that I honestly find it difficult to understand why anyone would rank the anime's version of the arc in their top 5 arcs/sagas, never mind their top 3. It has some fantastic character moments now and again, but those can only amount to so much when the framework is so sloppy in execution -- even then, not all of those character moments are done particularly well themselves. It's somewhat like the Future Trunks arc where the highs are exceptionally high, but the lows are so godawful that at times it can feel strenuous to revisit at all (although I'd still posit that the Future Trunks arc is simply better-written than this one overall).

That's more or less why I'm banking on the manga's version being a better implementation of its premise at this point, despite the manga's own problems.

Edit: As for the topic itself, that's another major problem I have with the anime's version in that there's just no sense of momentum with the arc's themes. Jiren is never foreshadowed to be this huge "obstacle to friendship" that would go as far as trying to harm Goku's pals at the end either. It feels terribly disjointed, as if the writing staff never even attempted to communicate as much as they should have.