Hot Take: DBMultiverse pulled off the Multiverse Tournament concept better than DBS’s Tournament of Power...

[Tai Lung]

Multiverse ain't perfect, but it is definitely better than the ToP.

at least you could argue the why
since DBM does not happen to be a set of "what if" but as a tournament it does not really advance.

I disagree.
Multiverse, while overall good, has an horrid, horrid pacing due to the unnecessary and sort-of-mandatory specials, and a lot of uninteresting, boring stuff.
While I concede that the majority of "new" characters of Multiverse are better than the pack of nobodies of the ToP, ToP still wins due to better pacing, more interesting scenarios, better fights.
I just can't remember many memorable fights in Multiverse (except Vegetto vs Broly?), while ToP had so many strategic, well written ones I often find myself re-watching those specific fights on YouTube.
Also Multiverse tend to give too much screentime to some specific guys (Vegetto, Bra), sometimes even really uninteresting ones (Videl), while Goku & co. are almost thirtiary characters.
People don't give enough credits to the ToP, but it was amazing excluding something here and there. Can't say the same about Multiverse.
But honestly I don't think it's fair to compare the twos: Multiverse is written by a single guy if I'm not mistaken, while ToP by a moltitude of professionals.

I’m not grading the DBMultiverse series. I’m grading how it executed the “Multiverse Tournament” concept. The specials aren’t apart of the Tournament. But i understand ur other points.

Its funny, your last point. People keep telling me its unfair that DBM had 10 years of time for its story while T.o.P had way less. But you’re saying DBM is written by 1 or 2 guys and the T.o.P was written by multiple professionals which is also a good point. Nevertheless, most of the time, comparing anything to anything will always have a level of unfairness.

the advantages are from the point of time so it has a good drawing, being an online media does not have to be censored and the cast are the same characters that had already developed it
not really from the script term

The point of the multiverse in the TOP was to meet different characters with new skills, battles and interactions for example namekians with namekians, frieza-frost, saiyans u6 -saiyans u7 etc.
Teamwork, sacrifices and saves and even strategy was the point of having 80 fighters gathered is the important thing.

in multiverse it is more about knowing the multiverse while the tournament goes into the background so there can be interructions or villains out there however the years pass and the tournament advances little
and what we know of the multiverse are just variations

so I would say that it does not achieve a better concept I only achieve a medium that could be better used but it does not.

Although I vehemently disagree, I don't really think this is a hot take. The ToP is a very hated arc as far as I can tell in this fandom.

Where do you get it's a hated arc? There are people who loves it, despite its issues. People debate if this arc or the Future Trunks Saga that was the best from Super. And those arcs are considered some of the best within Dragon Ball in general in some circles.

Overall, I never got the sense the fanbase hated the TOP outside a vocal minority.

I think the general consensus is that it wasn't bad, but it wasn't what it could have been and is dragged down by some bullshit.

The majority of negative opinions I have heard is that it is not the story of the villain on the turn to whom part of the public get used to despite the fact that the original DB did not do that at all times

[Zamasu55]

I disagree. It was a total mess and I really couldn't catch up.

Might i ask how far did you read?

Stopped reading it a long time ago, I think it was during the Hirudegarn vs Cell fight.

[AnimeNation101]

It did know what story it was telling. But the way it told it wasn’t that good.

The way Multiverse is telling the story it doesn't seem to know isn't very good either. It's cramped, and it's paced so slow that it makes "Five Minutes on Namek" and the anime's Tournament of Power blush.

I find this comparison quite useless and irrelevant considering the T.o.P specified that it was 48 minutes long and the Namek event specified that it had 5 minutes left. The Multiverse Tournament didn’t specify a time. It too however long it took.

Also, “closed and opened several plot threads that extend beyond it”? Thats giving it too much credit.

What plot threads that extended beyond the Universe Survival Arc did the arc open and close?

-it closed the Mutliverse Tournament plot thread established in the U6 v U7 arc
-you could say them showing us the other characters and gods from other universe closed the plot thread of having 12 universes in the first place but if that was the case, they closed it in a bad way considering we had very little exploration of each universe and very little development from each universe’s fighter
-it POSSIBLY opened up a “Jiren’s evil doer” plot thread
-it opened a plot thread for an alive Freeza

I'm not sure how that's "giving it too much credit" when you rattled off several yourself. Others include:

- Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta about moving without thinking has resulting in Ultra Instinct. Goku still can't tap into the state at will, and he and Vegeta are still training with Beerus and Whis.
- Freeza's growth as a martial artist that began in Resurrection F is continued here.
- Frost's nature as an off-brand Freeza is put to use by name-brand Freeza manipulating him.
- Vegeta taking Cabba under his wing and showing him the Super Saiyan state manifested in two new Super Saiyans.
- Following from that, as well as the existence of alternate-Universe off-brands, Kale low-key foreshadows Broli.
- In the manga, it's heavily implied that having two Zeno around is what expedites their boredom, manifesting in the desire to eliminate universes in the first place.
- In typical Dragon Ball tradition, Hit, a former antagonist, is humbled by the new big fish, and is now cooperative.
- In typical Dragon Ball tradition, Jiren, a former antagonist, will likely be humbled by a new big fish and become cooperative, or have a rematch with Goku, or both.

And arguably the most important one:
- We bookend the anime with Blooma's cruise ship.
[/quote]

I think you’re misunderstand what a plot thread is. A simply definition is a significant plot line for a character. And a plotline is the course or main features of a narrative such as the plot of a play, novel, or movie.

Goku achieving the transformation Ultra Instinct open the plot thread neither does it close it. Its just another part of it. The plot thread would conclude when Goku is able to master the form or even be able to use ultra instinct the technique without even having to transform to use it. Either way, its neither and opening or closing.

The “Freeza’s growth” thing seems more like a self-made plot thread. Freeza’s “growth as a martial artist” was never brought up or even hinted at in the Resurrection F movie. Neither is it even mentioned in the T.o.P. I mean, i could see you saying “Freeza’s growth as a character in general” since he went from holding a grudge against Goku to fighting with Goku against Jiren. But in the Broly movie, he goes back to trying to kill Goku and Vegeta. All in all, growth as a character arguably wasn’t closed by the T.o.P and growth as a martial artist was never opened to begin with. But I’d be open to you providing evidence for it if you want.

The Frost thing. In dont see the plot thread. You’re saying Freeza manipulating Frost is the plot thread closing. But what was the plot thread? Frost being a manipulator? Thats not a plot thread. Thats just his character.

If the plot thread here is Vegeta mentoring Cabba, how creating 2 more super saiyans count as the closing of the plot thread? The plot thread would theoretically close when Vegeta stops mentoring/training Cabba

I believe Kale was created before Toriyama was given the idea of using Broly so her existence wasn’t a foreshadow or plot thread opener. Not to mention Goku and Vegeta never even mentioned Kale when they saw Broly further proving that her existence has not connection to Broly in Super, as of now at least

I dont know where you got that Zeno one but I'm 90% sure its not true. In fact, the only reason we were given as to why Zeno wanted to erase the universes is that he thought there were too many. And he used the mortal levels to choose which ones to erase.

The one with Hit and Jiren aren’t plot threads closing. They’re just jobbing tropes. What even is the plot thread to begin with?

Finally, you’re saying us seeing 17 on Bulma’s ship is a plot thread ending. What plot thread does that exactly close and why?


Honestly none of these are valid. And the 4 are mentioned aren’t a lot. Thats why I'm saying you’re giving it too much credit.

[AnimeNation101]

I disagree. It was a total mess and I really couldn't catch up.

Might i ask how far did you read?

Stopped reading it a long time ago, I think it was during the Hirudegarn vs Cell fight.

Ur 455 pages behind (counting the special chapters). I’d say that stuff picks up in said 455 pages.

[Zephyr]

The Multiverse Tournament didn’t specify a time. It too however long it took.

Yes, and it's taken way too long.

I think you’re misunderstand what a plot thread is. A simply definition is a significant plot line for a character. And a plotline is the course or main features of a narrative such as the plot of a play, novel, or movie.

You got way too hung up on my word choice there. My bad for not choosing better.

In short: stuff from prior to the Tournament helps to inform stuff that happens within it and stuff that happens after it. Stuff that happens within it also helps to inform stuff that happens after it. It's integrated into a larger story, rather than being the story itself. It's part of a bigger whole, not the main course. It's a multiverse tournament that matters for a bigger story, as opposed to a multiverse tournament that matters for its own sake. The Tournament of Power is a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself. And a multiverse tournament, I feel, isn't something worthwhile in and of itself, outside of wish fulfillment dream match up shit. The Tournament of Power's selling point is "the new piece of this ongoing story", rather than "dude, wouldn't it be cool if, like, Cell fought Bojack?"

Freeza’s “growth as a martial artist” was never brought up or even hinted at in the Resurrection F movie. Neither is it even mentioned in the T.o.P. I mean, i could see you saying “Freeza’s growth as a character in general” since he went from holding a grudge against Goku to fighting with Goku against Jiren. But in the Broly movie, he goes back to trying to kill Goku and Vegeta. All in all, growth as a character arguably wasn’t closed by the T.o.P and growth as a martial artist was never opened to begin with. But I’d be open to you providing evidence for it if you want.

Subtext is a thing. In Resurrection F, Freeza trains to improve himself as a fighter for the first time. Subsequently, in Hell, he does image training to improve himself further. His growth as a martial artist is part of his growth as a character.

I dont know where you got that Zeno one but I'm 90% sure its not true. In fact, the only reason we were given as to why Zeno wanted to erase the universes is that he thought there were too many. And he used the mortal levels to choose which ones to erase.

And what prompts him to think there are too many? His game with the other Zeno. What happens in a timeline with only one Zeno? We see this, in the future timeline, where Universe 7 is around long enough for Trunks to grow to adulthood, despite Universe 7's mortal level being second from the bottom.

jobbing tropes

oh

[BWri]

Characters:On DBM’s side, there was always that bit of interest in wondering how each alternate reality version of a character’s personality differs and why is it so different. And from the personalities we got, apart from some “odd” traits, i loved them. And even from the few new characters that we do get, they are all more developed and interesting than 80 percent of the T.o.P new characters.

I really dug the psychotic version of Kakarot and Zen Buu. My highlights had to be Muten Krillin and Android Yamcha. The scaling in the tournament was pretty solid too with powerups mostly making sense. As far as characterization and surprises, its not even close, DBM is the superior story.

Structure: The idea of a Battle Royale was something original for DB but MAN did they mess it up. As many have said again and again, the T.o.P was much less of a Battle Royale and more of each universe team lining up to take on Universe 7. DBM stuck with the 1v1s which meant that they would be forced to have fights between universes that we are unfamiliar with so they avoided the “main universe that everyone knows and loves vs everyone else” problem that the T.o.P had and therefore made the DBM tournament feel much more like a Multiverse Tournament with everyone universe against each other rather than all of them against the Main Universe. So DBS promised something and executed it badly. DBM promised something and executed it well.

The matchups in DBM were really creative for the most part. I even like how they used it to answer questions some of us had for many years like who would win between Nail and Recoome. Matchups in the DBS ToP often feel like ass-pulls and mismatches with bad power scaling, such as Roshi overpowering a guy he says could cause a problem to his teammates (who should be millions-trillions of times stronger than him.) And strategy in DBS fights often feel like a fight between two children than seasoned warriors, whereas DBM usually has its characters feel more savvy and aware like they are supposed to.

And as said, ToP had problems with manga version (basically everyone was fodder) and anime version (too much focus on u7) so very few of the universes felt special in the end because only universe 7 and Jiren really mattered. I do think the anime did a great job with making the characters feel much more unique and interesting. I ended up liking many of the anime characters from the other universes and wanted to see more of them by the end, their powers and adventures.

Story:
The T.o.P plot was basic throughout. No real shifts, surprises, or switch ups. It was a fight for survival from beginning to end. No interruptions or villains. And the ending being predictable didn’t help. DBM’s Tournament on the other hand, started as a Multiverse Tournament and slowly developed with having the Ginyu mystery, the mystery of Universe 5’s XVI, Bardock’s vision, Babidi’s take over plan, etc. Hell, as of now, Babidi’s take over plan literally interrupted the tournament causing an all out battle between the Majin multiverse characters and the good guy multiverse characters. Doing stuff like this keeps the Tournament arc from getting stale. Thats why faster many episodes watching the T.o.P, i wished we could get an intermission where we see what Trunks and Goten are doing on 17’s Island. The T.o.P wasn’t shaking things up. So it got stale after some time.

Yeah, ToP was just a tournament with "stakes" but the stakes didn't really exist and we as the audience knew from the start that they didn't and no one writing made us feel it. I do like the scene where U9 is first erased, there was legitimate tension there for a few moments, but then it was back to fun and games instead of altering the tone of the arc. That would have been the perfect moment to make things feel more dire. And they had many opportunities to add more spice to it, but these days Toriyama-san goes for the most direct plot points possible, DBS arcs are typically a straight line. That's why I liked the Zamasu stuff so much, it finally introduced a few twists.

I will say, as much as I love DBM, it is quite a mess sometimes. I like the individual fights, but the overall plot I don't much care for and many of the backstory chapters are, quite frankly, boring and poorly written. I think the main problem is the lack of a main antagonist, so it ends up feeling like we're just spinning our wheels sometimes. I like the chaos, but feel the story needs to reveal its point. That said, I haven't read it in about a year so maybe things have changed.

Edge: I gotta address it. I know DBM has edge (also lacking a lot of the db spirit) but tbh, the edge alone aint enough to bring my enjoyment of the manga to a lower ranking than the T.o.P. But yeah, the edge and lack of DB spirit is probably my only problem but still a big one i have with DBM.

Technically DBM is still going to I’ll change my claim to this.

Dragon Ball Multiverse is pulling off the Multiverse Tournament concept better than DBS’s Tournament of Power...

Yeah, this is the problem with DBM. I think that it does often feel like fanfiction, at least outside of the fights themselves. The fights themselves and the matchups are really brilliant and feel like a natural evolution to DB/DBZ/DBGT fights and far smarter than most of what we've seen from the Buu saga and Super. The ideas introduced are really just stuff we've seen before but elevated so it feels much more in line with DB than even Super does.

But ...

The plot itself is very far removed from typical DB to the point it feels like fanfiction especially that XXI character and the Vargas. It all feels like author inserts and while (fusion-born) Bra does sometimes feel like a Mary Sue, I find the concept of her and perma-Vegetto very interesting. But overall, you can clearly feel that it isn't a Toriyama production, but I feel like the creators just embrace that anyway. That's why nowadays we see so many cameos and OCs in it.

[BWri]

Piccolo's self-worth issues, 17 trying to be less robotic, Vegeta facing off against a reflection of his past sins

None of this stuff really happened though and if it did it was so miniscule as to not warrant a notice. Definitely not noteworthy character development but small things you seem to have picked up. Was this anime or manga?

[AnimeNation101]

The Multiverse Tournament didn’t specify a time. It too however long it took.

Yes, and it's taken way too long.

I think you’re misunderstand what a plot thread is. A simply definition is a significant plot line for a character. And a plotline is the course or main features of a narrative such as the plot of a play, novel, or movie.

You got way too hung up on my word choice there. My bad for not choosing better.

In short: stuff from prior to the Tournament helps to inform stuff that happens within it and stuff that happens after it. Stuff that happens within it also helps to inform stuff that happens after it. It's integrated into a larger story, rather than being the story itself. It's part of a bigger whole, not the main course. It's a multiverse tournament that matters for a bigger story, as opposed to a multiverse tournament that matters for its own sake. The Tournament of Power is a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself. And a multiverse tournament, I feel, isn't something worthwhile in and of itself, outside of wish fulfillment dream match up shit. The Tournament of Power's selling point is "the new piece of this ongoing story", rather than "dude, wouldn't it be cool if, like, Cell fought Bojack?"

This is cool and all but the whole discussion is whether DBM or DBS pulled of the concept of a Multiverse Tournament better. Its DBM’s Tournament arc vs strictly the DBS’s Universe Survival Arc. So “being part of a bigger whole” doesn’t help its case in the discussion. Neither does it being “the new piece of this ongoing story” assuming the ongoing story is the DBS series. And like that, the Tournament’s selling point becomes “a grand Battle Royale between multiple universes for survival.” The fact that it had a predictable outcome already weakened the selling point let alone the poor execution on the selling point of being a “grand Battle Royale between multiple universes”. Meanwhile, DBM’s Tournament selling point is that its a big What-if. Which i find more interesting. And on top of that, it isn’t predictable and isn’t just a flat out Tournament throughout like it advertised. And, for someone who likes surprises, i found even more interesting.

Freeza’s “growth as a martial artist” was never brought up or even hinted at in the Resurrection F movie. Neither is it even mentioned in the T.o.P. I mean, i could see you saying “Freeza’s growth as a character in general” since he went from holding a grudge against Goku to fighting with Goku against Jiren. But in the Broly movie, he goes back to trying to kill Goku and Vegeta. All in all, growth as a character arguably wasn’t closed by the T.o.P and growth as a martial artist was never opened to begin with. But I’d be open to you providing evidence for it if you want.

Subtext is a thing. In Resurrection F, Freeza trains to improve himself as a fighter for the first time. Subsequently, in Hell, he does image training to improve himself further. His growth as a martial artist is part of his growth as a character.

Ok. Lets say it is a plot thread. How does the T.o.P end it? Just like Goku getting UI, its just another point in said plot thread. Nothing indicates that it closes the plot thread but continues instead.

I dont know where you got that Zeno one but I'm 90% sure its not true. In fact, the only reason we were given as to why Zeno wanted to erase the universes is that he thought there were too many. And he used the mortal levels to choose which ones to erase.

And what prompts him to think there are too many? His game with the other Zeno. What happens in a timeline with only one Zeno? We see this, in the future timeline, where Universe 7 is around long enough for Trunks to grow to adulthood, despite Universe 7's mortal level being second from the bottom.

I see what you’re saying now. I ask again, what plot thread does that exactly close? The plot thread that closed with Future Zeno was Present Zeno wanting a friend. And it ended when Goku brought Future Zeno to Zeno. But what plot thread closed because of Zeno and Future Zeno’s chess game? Seemed more like a plot device than a closing of a plot thread, imo.

jobbing tropes

oh
[/quote]
Oh

[wolflonnie]

I disagree.
Multiverse, while overall good, has an horrid, horrid pacing due to the unnecessary and sort-of-mandatory specials, and a lot of uninteresting, boring stuff.
While I concede that the majority of "new" characters of Multiverse are better than the pack of nobodies of the ToP, ToP still wins due to better pacing, more interesting scenarios, better fights.
I just can't remember many memorable fights in Multiverse (except Vegetto vs Broly?), while ToP had so many strategic, well written ones I often find myself re-watching those specific fights on YouTube.
Also Multiverse tend to give too much screentime to some specific guys (Vegetto, Bra), sometimes even really uninteresting ones (Videl), while Goku & co. are almost thirtiary characters.
People don't give enough credits to the ToP, but it was amazing excluding something here and there. Can't say the same about Multiverse.
But honestly I don't think it's fair to compare the twos: Multiverse is written by a single guy if I'm not mistaken, while ToP by a moltitude of professionals.

I’m not grading the DBMultiverse series. I’m grading how it executed the “Multiverse Tournament” concept. The specials aren’t apart of the Tournament. But i understand ur other points.

Its funny, your last point. People keep telling me its unfair that DBM had 10 years of time for its story while T.o.P had way less. But you’re saying DBM is written by 1 or 2 guys and the T.o.P was written by multiple professionals which is also a good point. Nevertheless, most of the time, comparing anything to anything will always have a level of unfairness.

Yeah I mean, people are always shitting and memeing on fanworks and fanfictions, but they always forget it's one lone, inexperienced guy or a very small team working on them. So you gotta appreciate what is to appreciate.
Comparing a fanwork to a "canon" work is, most of the cases, never gonna be fair.