Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

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Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by DestructoDisc » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:13 pm

Android 17 got this powerful because he trained for many years, while also occasionally spending time with his family. That makes me question why is Piccolo so much weaker than him when Piccolo does exactly the same thing. He also always trains, and occasionally takes care of Pan. That's it. So logically shouldn't Piccolo be around current Android 17's level?

Heck, even Tien should be much more powerful than he was portrayed in Super. This guy dedicated his entire life to nothing but training, didn't he?

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Michsi » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:28 pm

I kinda clicked here by accident but I might as well- reverse expectations I suspect. The character that seemed like everybody forgot about ending up being so relevant and the last man standing was unexpected. They never went into detail as to why he was as strong as he was (I think the manga tried to offer some explanation but when 17 was asked directly he said himself he did nothing special) so I assume they never thought it through thoroughly.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm

Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Trouser » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:33 am

17 has trained with poachers. They give the best exp and loot, so he leveled up quickly. :lolno:

Piccolo should be even stronger than 17 is. It's said than he's been training constantly. Sad thruth he isn't stronger. That is what bugs me a lot in modern DB, the treatment of Piccolo. I'd give everything (well, maybe not everything...) to have him be on par with Goku and Vegeta to change things a little bit. He is fodder, just like everyone who's not named Goku or Vegeta. It's really sad.

Now, don't get me wrong. I really like 17 and I've only watched ToP because of him and Frieza, but I don't think he should be that strong. Funny thing is, he is in fact that strong but he's once again forgotten.
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:05 pm

Most likely #17's infinity energy generator is also extremely good at self-improvement.
Also, #17 probably is strictly speaking weaker than he looks, because having infinite stamina he can punch at 100% all time, while somebody with the exact same power-level would need to save energy.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by DestructoDisc » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:09 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm
Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.
But Piccolo was already stronger than 17 once the latter began to train, and Piccolo just kept on training without stopping after that. I don't get why 17 is THAT much stronger than him. It's not just unfair, it's also ridiculously dumb. Tien as I said should also be a lot stronger than he was portrayed in Super.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:08 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:09 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm
Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.
But Piccolo was already stronger than 17 once the latter began to train, and Piccolo just kept on training without stopping after that. I don't get why 17 is THAT much stronger than him. It's not just unfair, it's also ridiculously dumb. Tien as I said should also be a lot stronger than he was portrayed in Super.
Doesn't matter, 17 is another Freeza.

If you are born strong then you are going to be stronger. Freeza, 17 and Boo all need to train very little to get up there in power.

It is what it is. If it makes you feel better, Piccolo might be able to kill him with his Makankosappo.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:11 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm
Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.
Goku started at 10.
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Godo » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:34 pm

It doesn't make any sense for 17 being that much stronger than Piccolo, but the same could be said with Freeza training for 4 months and going from low SSJ level to SSJ Blue level...
The strength of the characters is dictated by the story and *cough* toy sales. Give Piccolo a new design and he will get new powers.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:44 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:11 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm
Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.
Goku started at 10.
The main Saiyans are a special case of course.

P.S. He started at less than 10 actually.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:26 am

The simple answer is probably that Toriyama doesn't have any role planned for him. Ever since the end of the Buu arc, you've had this duopolistic arrangement where Goku and Vegeta have their quests to become the strongest embellished and their status as fighters necessitated the most. They're the only two who bother to use any of the latest training leaders. Everyone else either inexplicably becomes stronger to a degree off-screen or their presence is used as a sleight of hand feint where they're quickly tugged back after the main event has started without doing much of anything (Tenshinhan and Krillin in the TOP being examples of this).

For someone who likes to subvert fans' expectations, Toriyama seems awfully content with keeping the same character arrangement that's been in existence for all 7 arcs of Super. Go figure.

I think the most we're going to get from Piccolo is a mid-standard support or placeholder intended to facilitate the victory of either Vegeta or Goku. We're long past the days when Piccolo harboured a fierce competitive drive to be the best like the Saiyans. Believe me, I say that as someone who's a big Piccolo fan.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Majin Demigra » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:03 am

Well, sitting in wastelands all day seems like a poor training regime

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Michsi » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:30 am

Majin Demigra wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:03 am
Well, sitting in wastelands all day seems like a poor training regime
Seemed to have worked for 17

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:00 am

Michsi wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:30 am
Majin Demigra wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:03 am
Well, sitting in wastelands all day seems like a poor training regime
Seemed to have worked for 17
More than just #17. We know Vegeta would abscond off into who knows where in order to train during the intermission between the Freeza arc and Future Trunks' arrival -- this was before the second gravity chamber was constructed. It seems Goku also trained primarily by himself between the Buu and Beerus arcs with exercises and image training. I don't think anyone is going to write those occasions off as being unfruitful. In fact, the image training we see in the first chapter of Super appears to insinuate that Goku strengthened himself up to the point that he could fight Kid Buu using just regular Super Saiyan.

At least the area which Piccolo resided in until he moved into the lookout's palace at the end of the Cell arc was described as having a climate similar to Namek's in the Daizenshuu. Most would probably write that off as being an irrelevant detail but we can see that the Namekians' general power levels seemed to be noticeably high in comparison to Earth's early on. Its environment was likely more facilitative of higher power than much of what Earth could replicate; adaptation and all that.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:57 am

The Jump special by Toyotarou might help shed some light into this:
17 wasn't just poaching, he actually tamed those Cell Jr's all on his own. Remember how those Cell Jr's clowned the likes of SS Goku/Trunks/Vegeta at the time? They're def better training partners than the likes of Dende, Popo, or even himself tbh.

But even with the above, 17 being that strong has been written off as a deus ex machina or an out-of-universe joke. I mean, the manga literally questions why 17 got so strong to begin with by both Goku and Piccolo. Don't think too hard about it.
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by DestructoDisc » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:55 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:57 am
The Jump special by Toyotarou might help shed some light into this:
17 wasn't just poaching, he actually tamed those Cell Jr's all on his own. Remember how those Cell Jr's clowned the likes of SS Goku/Trunks/Vegeta at the time? They're def better training partners than the likes of Dende, Popo, or even himself tbh.
This is only true to the manga. In the anime, the Cell Jrs weren't mentioned at all. And 17 was actually even more powerful in the anime than he was in the manga. It was ridiculous.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by funrush » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:37 pm

Super's power-scaling generally makes no sense, so chances are there's no explanation. Roshi holds his own against Freeza's army even though he's Raditz-tier at best.

I like the manga's use of Cell Jr.s, so I'm gonna go with that. Maybe there's something in 17's body or programming that makes training more efficient for him?

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:06 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:55 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:57 am
The Jump special by Toyotarou might help shed some light into this:
17 wasn't just poaching, he actually tamed those Cell Jr's all on his own. Remember how those Cell Jr's clowned the likes of SS Goku/Trunks/Vegeta at the time? They're def better training partners than the likes of Dende, Popo, or even himself tbh.
This is only true to the manga. In the anime, the Cell Jrs weren't mentioned at all. And 17 was actually even more powerful in the anime than he was in the manga. It was ridiculous.
I didn't realize that you were referring only to the anime. Regardless, you know as well as I do that the powerscaling in the anime is garbage and negligent in general (especially in the ToP arc) so Idk why you're look for reasoning that doesn't exist. The manga's backstory for 17 doesn't contradict the anime's either and moving forward with the future of DBS, the manga is becoming the primary canon so...

17 had Cell Jr's to tame, Piccolo at best had his image training or something relatively weaker. Regardless of the level they're at now, it's no wonder which fighter would eventually become stronger than the other. As Krillin put it in the same panel: "I think I get why you're so strong now..."
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:51 pm

Infinite stamina also has to make training a lot more effective.
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:15 am

#17 has infinite stamina, barely needs to sleep, eat or drink, add in the fact he's mostly human, means that he can train for a long as he wants without ever getting tired. And considering Gero amplified his strength to be much more power than Mecha Freeza, his gains in training could potentially be substantial.

Piccolo hit a glass ceiling all the way back in the Cell arc, so honestly it's a miracle he became as strong as he did.

Honestly, how strong characters get in Dragon Ball is to the whims of the plot and pure convenience from Toriyama. All Toei and Toyotaro have done is take that mindset and stretch the liberty of it to such an absurd degree.

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