Does the fact the DBS anime is not returning make you loose intrest in DB?

[GhostEmperorX]

My issue with the original manga's ending is that Goku's decision to leave things to the next generation felt a bit abrupt, especially with him being at the top of his game.

Now why does that remind me of some other accomplished anime protagonist...

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Deus ex machina does not mean "asspull" and never has. If an outside power resolves an otherwise hopeless plot situation then it's a deus ex machina. It does not matter if it was foreshadowed much earlier in the story. Foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina. The heroes were fucked, Zeno was introduced to resolve the plot on their behalf, everyone gets a (mostly) happy ending. That's a deus ex machina.

So looking up the definition, I get this.

a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

Zeno's appearance is not a "sudden introduction" as he has been part of the show for 25 or so episodes at this point. A sudden introduction would have had him make his first ever appearance at episode 67 instead of 40, and then have him wiping out Zamasu for us. Goku has the button and we know he has the button, the logic of it not being activated or destroyed during the fight be damned, and he uses it to call Zeno. It isn't like in Lord of the Flies where a passing guy saw the kids and saved them out of nowhere. This was perfectly planned and part of deus ex machina is, as said above, being unexpected. It may not always be an asspull, but it usually is since it can often mean poor writing.

I know you said "foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina," but what seems to be an element really is the out-of-nowhere appearance of something/someone that saves the day. Here is an excerpt from Britannica.

Since ancient times, the phrase has also been applied to an unexpected saviour or to an improbable event that brings order out of chaos (e.g., the arrival, in time to avert tragedy, of the U.S. cavalry in a western film).

The only way I can see this being deus ex machina is if we take it in a literal sense. Zeno is above every God of Destruction and Angel so he is the highest god in the series. You could argue it's a literal deus ex machina, but as a storytelling element I am still going to take the stance that his appearance is not an example of deus ex machina. If you can give some examples of how this still is, I'm more than happy to hear it. This is quite an enjoyable conversation, and I mean that as one DB fan to another. Not a "ha ha, I'm totally winning this internet argument because I'm not a loser. hur hur."

[SupremeKai25]

Deus ex machina does not mean "asspull" and never has. If an outside power resolves an otherwise hopeless plot situation then it's a deus ex machina. It does not matter if it was foreshadowed much earlier in the story. Foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina. The heroes were fucked, Zeno was introduced to resolve the plot on their behalf, everyone gets a (mostly) happy ending. That's a deus ex machina.

So looking up the definition, I get this.

a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

Zeno's appearance is not a "sudden introduction" as he has been part of the show for 25 or so episodes at this point. A sudden introduction would have had him make his first ever appearance at episode 67 instead of 40, and then have him wiping out Zamasu for us. Goku has the button and we know he has the button, the logic of it not being activated or destroyed during the fight be damned, and he uses it to call Zeno. It isn't like in Lord of the Flies where a passing guy saw the kids and saved them out of nowhere. This was perfectly planned and part of deus ex machina is, as said above, being unexpected. It may not always be an asspull, but it usually is since it can often mean poor writing.

I know you said "foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina," but what seems to be an element really is the out-of-nowhere appearance of something/someone that saves the day. Here is an excerpt from Britannica.

Since ancient times, the phrase has also been applied to an unexpected saviour or to an improbable event that brings order out of chaos (e.g., the arrival, in time to avert tragedy, of the U.S. cavalry in a western film).

The only way I can see this being deus ex machina is if we take it in a literal sense. Zeno is above every God of Destruction and Angel so he is the highest god in the series. You could argue it's a literal deus ex machina, but as a storytelling element I am still going to take the stance that his appearance is not an example of deus ex machina. If you can give some examples of how this still is, I'm more than happy to hear it. This is quite an enjoyable conversation, and I mean that as one DB fan to another. Not a "ha ha, I'm totally winning this internet argument because I'm not a loser. hur hur."

Actually that definition you linked fits very well with Future Zeno in ep. 67. His arrival was sudden and unexpected. Nobody knew you could just summon Zeno, only Goku knew and he forgot he had that button, he found it while he was looking for a senzu bean (he even expressed surprise after he found it). Most people in the audience also forgot because the Zeno Button was only referenced in ep. 55, it was never mentioned again until it was used in ep. 67, so it was not even foreshadowed that much. So they had to call Zeno to defeat an unstoppable enemy (since you can't defeat a guy who merged with the cosmos, you just can't), and Zeno did resolve the problem, but in a contrived way; because since Infinite Zamasu was infecting the entire cosmos, Zeno had to literally erase everything. All points of the definition are checked as far as I can see.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Deus ex machina does not mean "asspull" and never has. If an outside power resolves an otherwise hopeless plot situation then it's a deus ex machina. It does not matter if it was foreshadowed much earlier in the story. Foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina. The heroes were fucked, Zeno was introduced to resolve the plot on their behalf, everyone gets a (mostly) happy ending. That's a deus ex machina.

So looking up the definition, I get this.

a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

Zeno's appearance is not a "sudden introduction" as he has been part of the show for 25 or so episodes at this point. A sudden introduction would have had him make his first ever appearance at episode 67 instead of 40, and then have him wiping out Zamasu for us. Goku has the button and we know he has the button, the logic of it not being activated or destroyed during the fight be damned, and he uses it to call Zeno. It isn't like in Lord of the Flies where a passing guy saw the kids and saved them out of nowhere. This was perfectly planned and part of deus ex machina is, as said above, being unexpected. It may not always be an asspull, but it usually is since it can often mean poor writing.

I know you said "foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina," but what seems to be an element really is the out-of-nowhere appearance of something/someone that saves the day. Here is an excerpt from Britannica.

Since ancient times, the phrase has also been applied to an unexpected saviour or to an improbable event that brings order out of chaos (e.g., the arrival, in time to avert tragedy, of the U.S. cavalry in a western film).

The only way I can see this being deus ex machina is if we take it in a literal sense. Zeno is above every God of Destruction and Angel so he is the highest god in the series. You could argue it's a literal deus ex machina, but as a storytelling element I am still going to take the stance that his appearance is not an example of deus ex machina. If you can give some examples of how this still is, I'm more than happy to hear it. This is quite an enjoyable conversation, and I mean that as one DB fan to another. Not a "ha ha, I'm totally winning this internet argument because I'm not a loser. hur hur."

Actually that definition you linked fits very well with Future Zeno in ep. 67. His arrival was sudden and unexpected. Nobody knew you could just summon Zeno, only Goku knew and he forgot he had that button, he found it while he was looking for a senzu bean (he even expressed surprise after he found it). Most people in the audience also forgot because the Zeno Button was only referenced in ep. 55, it was never mentioned again until it was used in ep. 67, so it was not even foreshadowed that much. So they had to call Zeno to defeat an unstoppable enemy (since you can't defeat a guy who merged with the cosmos, you just can't), and Zeno did resolve the problem, but in a contrived way; because since Infinite Zamasu was infecting the entire cosmos, Zeno had to literally erase everything. All points of the definition are checked as far as I can see.

I'm not sure. I take "sudden and unexpected" to generally mean randomly without warning. Imagine if there was a show where a character had a quest to do something but was stopped by something (wall, forcefield, etc.) Then suddenly, out of nowhere and without warning, got past it with a simple new power that was never mentioned or hinted at until then. That's more of what I mean as sudden and unexpected. We all knew you could summon Zeno because of the button, and simply because we forgot about it doesn't mean it is deus ex machina. It can generally be good writing to make the audience forget about something until it's needed--it's making use of what is available in the story. And I also am not sure if it is contrived for Zeno to erase everything. Whereas Toyotaro had Zamasu make infinite copies of himself (like Metal Coola), Toei simply had Zamasu merge with the cosmos. So for something unkillable like in the latter, is it really contrived for a god who you have always been able to summon and the audience knows you can summon to take care of it? I don't agree that it is, nor is it deus ex machina.

Again, if you want to say it's a literal example there may be more ground since Zeno is the omni king and above everyone...

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not sure. I take "sudden and unexpected" to generally mean randomly without warning. Imagine if there was a show where a character had a quest to do something but was stopped by something (wall, forcefield, etc.) Then suddenly, out of nowhere and without warning, got past it with a simple new power that was never mentioned or hinted at until then. That's more of what I mean as sudden and unexpected. We all knew you could summon Zeno because of the button, and simply because we forgot about it doesn't mean it is deus ex machina. It can generally be good writing to make the audience forget about something until it's needed--it's making use of what is available in the story. And I also am not sure if it is contrived for Zeno to erase everything. Whereas Toyotaro had Zamasu make infinite copies of himself (like Metal Coola), Toei simply had Zamasu merge with the cosmos. So for something unkillable like in the latter, is it really contrived for a god who you have always been able to summon and the audience knows you can summon to take care of it? I don't agree that it is, nor is it deus ex machina.

Again, if you want to say it's a literal example there may be more ground since Zeno is the omni king and above everyone...

And it was random and without warning. Zeno only gave him the button for future uses, they never included it in their plans (not that they really had any plan in the first place), they never talked about it, Goku was the only one in the group who knew about it and he forgot. The Zeno Button is literally an instant "I Win" button in case things go badly. I mean, if you think about it the writers were not even trying to hide what a blatant and lazy cop-out that was. There's one scene in the episode where Shin looks at Infinite Zamasu and says something like "how are we supposed to fight something like that?", and literally 5 seconds later Goku finds the Zeno Button by pure chance.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I'm not sure. I take "sudden and unexpected" to generally mean randomly without warning. Imagine if there was a show where a character had a quest to do something but was stopped by something (wall, forcefield, etc.) Then suddenly, out of nowhere and without warning, got past it with a simple new power that was never mentioned or hinted at until then. That's more of what I mean as sudden and unexpected. We all knew you could summon Zeno because of the button, and simply because we forgot about it doesn't mean it is deus ex machina. It can generally be good writing to make the audience forget about something until it's needed--it's making use of what is available in the story. And I also am not sure if it is contrived for Zeno to erase everything. Whereas Toyotaro had Zamasu make infinite copies of himself (like Metal Coola), Toei simply had Zamasu merge with the cosmos. So for something unkillable like in the latter, is it really contrived for a god who you have always been able to summon and the audience knows you can summon to take care of it? I don't agree that it is, nor is it deus ex machina.

Again, if you want to say it's a literal example there may be more ground since Zeno is the omni king and above everyone...

And it was random and without warning. Zeno only gave him the button for future uses, they never included it in their plans (not that they really had any plan in the first place), they never talked about it, Goku was the only one in the group who knew about it and he forgot. The Zeno Button is literally an instant "I Win" button in case things go badly. I mean, if you think about it the writers were not even trying to hide what a blatant and lazy cop-out that was. There's one scene in the episode where Shin looks at Infinite Zamasu and says something like "how are we supposed to fight something like that?", and literally 5 seconds later Goku finds the Zeno Button by pure chance.

Toriyama is the only writer. He writes the general plot outline and gives it to Toei and Toyotaro. It was planned from the beginning by him. Goku didn't find the button by pure chance. It was in his pocket. He left it there. Introducing an element and bringing it back later can be a great story element. One of those things that makes the reader/viewer go like "Ohh!" For example, it's not like in Kanon how some cure for a main character is magically discovered in one of the last episodes without any reason and gives a happy ending. That has happened so much that some people say it's "Key Magic" for all of the BS deus ex machina events Key puts in their visual novels (Clannad aside).

[SupremeKai25]

Toriyama is the only writer. He writes the general plot outline and gives it to Toei and Toyotaro. It was planned from the beginning by him. Goku didn't find the button by pure chance. It was in his pocket. He left it there. Introducing an element and bringing it back later can be a great story element. One of those things that makes the reader/viewer go like "Ohh!" For example, it's not like in Kanon how some cure for a main character is magically discovered in one of the last episodes without any reason and gives a happy ending. That has happened so much that some people say it's "Key Magic" for all of the BS deus ex machina events Key puts in their visual novels (Clannad aside).

Because it's not sudden and unexpected for the audience or the writers. It's not like people who write deus ex machina wake up one day and decide to write one. It's sudden and unexpected for the characters. Yes, Goku did find the button by pure chance, because he did not know it was there. If he never wanted to look for a senzu bean, he would've never found it. So much so that he himself was surprised he had it in there because he did not remember he had that button in the first place.

To be honest I doubt anyone even went "Ohh!" when they saw that episode, they probably went like "Wait, that was it? Just everything's gone in two seconds? I feel like I just wasted my time for the last 5 months".

[Nanatsu88]

The problem of not returning this year Super is not that we have no content this year. Digimon returns to FujiTV and it is normal to have approximately 50-60 episodes.
Dragon Quest Dai will start in October and it is normal to be issued by TBS since if it was broadcast on FujiTV Digimon it would only have 26 episodes. Never has a series of Digimon had so few episodes, so it is normal for Dragon Quest to be cited on TBS and Digimon is on mission until measured in 2021.

The issue is whether when Digimon ends in 2021 he can return Super.
The Dragon Quest Dai anime is going to have at least 120 episodes because they have to adapt everything from the beginning. Although it is not broadcast on FujiTV and Digimon leave the free space TOEI I do not think I can have in simultaneous production One Piece, Dragon Quest and Super.
Do you think that TOEI is able to get into production of these 3 series at the same time? Or do you think he will wait to finish Dragon Quest Dai to have another series of Dragon Ball in production?

If they do that they will leave the series dead for 4 years. Surely there is a movie in between but it is a long time without having a weekly series taking into account the amount of money generated by the franchise thanks to the weekly anime. In addition it has already been confirmed that by the middle of this year the benefits of the franchise will go down.

Will they continue to lower income for 3 more years? Don't you think it makes no sense to do that?

[Matches Malone]

Do you think that TOEI is able to get into production of these 3 series at the same time? Or do you think he will wait to finish Dragon Quest Dai to have another series of Dragon Ball in production? Surely there is a movie in between but it is a long time without having a weekly series.

Whenever we get another show it'll take Digimon's spot to air alongside One Piece. I think the long wait is due to Toei waiting for the manga to finish its current arc so that it can be adapted properly. In terms of a movie, they announced in 2019 that a new one got the green light but when it releases is anyone's guess. I personally think it'll be announced this December with a 2021 release date.

[MuscleRobo]

My issue with the original manga's ending is that Goku's decision to leave things to the next generation felt a bit abrupt, especially with him being at the top of his game.

Now why does that remind me of some other accomplished anime protagonist...

Well, it worked in Kinnikuman! Although he got to be the King,

[chongjasmine]

I hope DBS is coming back, but even if not, I will always love DB.