SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[SupremeKai25]

No, Toriyama didn't change his mind. With that logic you're saying Toriyama decided to add SSGSS Evolution and SSGSS Kaioken into his story. Fused Zamasu should have been a massive threat based on different variables, not just being 'strong'.

But he did. If he told both Toyotaro and Toei that it was okay to have Fused Zamasu be very powerful, then he changed his mind about Fused Zamasu only having immortality going for him ("different variables", just a fancy way of saying immortality). That doesn't mean he suddenly thought their versions were supperior, it just means he accepted that that was an appropriate way to develop the story.

Super is very inconsistent, especially Toei's version. The point at what Goku and the others were at is way above Zamasu, the only reason why Zamasu had a large advantage to keep up was because of his immortality.

Or maybe Super was not inconsistent in that regard and Goku and the others were not supposed to be *way above* Future Zamasu? Like, that's also a possibility... it's not like bad writing is always the answer.

The Present Zamasu was as strong as SS2 Goku, the Future Zamasu had 20 more years to train, and he was already a natural prodigy and a fighting genius. Him not being SSB level does not mean there was an abyss between them that is comparable to the gap between Buu saga Goku and Mr. Satan, an earthling who can't even fly.

Fusion Zamasu was still way too powerful for someone who was meant to be struggling to 'regenerate'. Then all of a sudden Trunks kills him, how? Toei's terrible plot. The manga ending was not that great either in my opinion.

Trunks did not suddenly kill him. Fused Zamasu was already weakened severely by Vegito. Gowasu put it bluntly that the only way to defeat Zamasu was to disrupt the fragile balance between his immortal soul and half-mortal body, so that his regeneration was damaged permanently, and that's exactly what happened. Vegito did most of the work and Trunks dealt the final blow.

And by the way Trunks did not even kill Zamasu. He kept talking despite having his brain split in half. Trunks only disrupted his regeneration. It was Fused Zamasu who then decided to let go of his half-mortal body and merge with the very fabric of the cosmos.

Also there's nothing wrong with Fused Zamasu becoming stronger. He hurt himself and increased his power as a result of anger and pain. That's the same exact thing Black did in the previous episode.

I know right, I'm saying that the author most likely knows what's best for his story,

Actually that's not what you said, you said YOU thought Toriyama's version was better, just like I said I thought Toei's overall had more elements I agreed with.

Also must things be so black and white? Don't lump me into any category. Just because I prefer the anime version of Fused Zamasu does not mean I am a Toei fanboy or whatever you thought I was. There are also many things I don't agree with that Toei did. For example, I think it was stupid that Fused Zamasu was only half-immortal, because that made no sense. A fusion is not half of anything. Future Zamasu was clearly the dominant personality so Fused Zamasu should've been 100% immortal, like in the manga.

[Aim]

But he did. If he told both Toyotaro and Toei that it was okay to have Fused Zamasu be very powerful, then he changed his mind about Fused Zamasu only having immortality going for him ("different variables", just a fancy way of saying immortality). That doesn't mean he suddenly thought their versions were supperior, it just means he accepted that that was an appropriate way to develop the story.

But he didn't! Do you really think he'd bother getting so involved and argue with Toei and do more explaining? He gave Toei and Toyo freedom to do as they basically please with almost everything, if he really was changing his mind based on allowing things to be changed then SSGSS Kaioken and Evolution would have made it into Broly, but it didn't, because it's not part of HIS story. Toriyama does vague outlines of the story, and he allowed those adapting it a lot of leeway.

Or maybe Super was not inconsistent in that regard and Goku and the others were not supposed to be *way above* Future Zamasu? Like, that's also a possibility... it's not like bad writing is always the answer.

The Present Zamasu was as strong as SS2 Goku, the Future Zamasu had 20 more years to train, and he was already a natural prodigy and a fighting genius. Him not being SSB level does not mean there was an abyss between them that is comparable to the gap between Buu saga Goku and Mr. Satan, an earthling who can't even fly.

Zamasu wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Son Goku post God, he was very skilled and was able to use Son's momentum against himself, that doesn't equal physical strength to that degree. He's a fighting genius but ultimately he's a Supreme Kai and didn't fight the numerous battles that Son Goku and Co fought over time. This argument doesn't make any sense as we've seen Zamasu significantly below the others except for Future Trunks, but still not as strong. His immortality is what makes him a large threat.

Sure, the gap is different between Buu Arc Son and Satan, but nonetheless he's no where near the other's levels in strength.

Trunks did not suddenly kill him. Fused Zamasu was already weakened severely by Vegito. Gowasu put it bluntly that the only way to defeat Zamasu was to disrupt the fragile balance between his immortal soul and half-mortal body, so that his regeneration was damaged permanently, and that's exactly what happened. Vegito did most of the work and Trunks dealt the final blow.

Zamasu was extremely powerful, he tanked a SSGSS Final Kamehameha barely hurt, he was beaten by Trunks for the sake of the story. Random spirit bomb, random 'unbalance' between an 'immortal soul' and mortal body. As it is the Super TV series has strange logic compared to the manga and is very inconsistent. Two entities fuse together make one entity, right? So their powers could narrative wise combine together so that there's no imbalance, my guess is Toriyama had that in mind since there was no Vegetto in the original script.

And by the way Trunks did not even kill Zamasu. He kept talking despite having his brain split in half. Trunks only disrupted his regeneration. It was Fused Zamasu who then decided to let go of his half-mortal body and merge with the very fabric of the cosmos.

Also there's nothing wrong with Fused Zamasu becoming stronger. He hurt himself and increased his power as a result of anger and pain. That's the same exact thing Black did in the previous episode.

I dislike this version of Zamasu, I think it's stupid, ridiculously overpowered for the sake of hyping up the show, it's also strange how Infinite Zamasu didn't use that moment when the others were weakened to kill them. Fusion Zamasu would still be strong, just not to the point of two SSGSS'. How can you be immortal and lose your body? It doesn't make any sense.

Actually that's not what you said, you said YOU thought Toriyama's version was better, just like I said I thought Toei's overall had more elements I agreed with.

I agree with Toriyama's original ideas, I think his version is better, it sounds more like Dragon Ball to me. Toriyama has a certain way of doing things you'll only come to understand if you read his works from start to finish, if you can't see that Toriyama has always made Dragon Ball Dragon Ball, then I don't know what to tell you.

Also must things be so black and white? Don't lump me into any category. Just because I prefer the anime version of Fused Zamasu does not mean I am a Toei fanboy or whatever you thought I was. There are also many things I don't agree with that Toei did. For example, I think it was stupid that Fused Zamasu was only half-immortal, because that made no sense. A fusion is not half of anything. Future Zamasu was clearly the dominant personality so Fused Zamasu should've been 100% immortal, like in the manga.

It's not black and white, never insinuated it was, never said you were a Toei fanboy. Toriyama's scripts have been very insightful for knowing what goes on in his head, the anime over did it, Corrupt Zamasu was the least Toriyama thing I'd seen, and Infinite Zamasu was also very strange and was extremely complicated lore wise to understand.

Just like we've discussed in this thread Toriyama has obviously originally envisioned SSGSS to be extremely powerful, way more so than what has been shown to us, hence the lack of power stack on's. Having Fusion Zamasu be stronger than one but struggle with two SSGSS' is not a stretch at all. It makes sense how the fusion between Goku Black and Zamasu wouldn't be strong enough to trump everyone, even if we do say that Fusion Zamasu isn't 'weaker', he's still going to struggle with two SSGSS', but it's not like he'd be defeated by them that way. There's multiple ways you can theorise how Toriyama would have done it, they can all go different ways, but knowing him he'd probably have it be simple and in my opinion that's way better than what we got from Toei and Toyo.

I'm not giving Toriyama a pass for Minus. He wanted to give a backstory, and you can damn I will judge him for what he intended to do.

It’s not about giving Toriyama a pass, it’s about not judging his potential to output good DB stories in manga format nowadays, based on one “bad” chapter.
And I wouldn’t judge either based on his outlines, because if he were to draw the manga I bet the stories would have been drastically different.

I don’t even mind Minus, but I can see why people hate it especially when Bardock’s TV special exists and is much better than it.

I actually really liked Minus, it's just a shame we didn't see it through to the end with Bardock and Gine in the manga. I really liked Bardock being a caring parent as well as one of the few Saiyan's that had a heart.

[SupremeKai25]

But he didn't! Do you really think he'd bother getting so involved and argue with Toei and do more explaining? He gave Toei and Toyo freedom to do as they basically please with almost everything, if he really was changing his mind based on allowing things to be changed then SSGSS Kaioken and Evolution would have made it into Broly, but it didn't, because it's not part of HIS story. Toriyama does vague outlines of the story, and he allowed those adapting it a lot of leeway.

I mean, he's the creator of the story, if he was strongly opposed to Fused Zamasu being that strong then he would have told them to follow his original draft. Instead he didn't, and actually told Toyotaro that he liked his manga version of Fused Zamasu being stronger than Goku and Vegeta but weaker than Vegito.

Zamasu wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Son Goku post God, he was very skilled and was able to use Son's momentum against himself, that doesn't equal physical strength to that degree.

That's not it at all, he was able to outmanuever Goku at the beginning of the fight and would have finished him with one blow if Goku didnt parry with a ki blast, then he was able to block all of Goku's attacks, and when he was overpowered it was because he was under extreme emotional stress and was caught off guard. Also Goku told him that they should spar again another time so clearly he was enjoying that fight, and Goku wouldn't enjoy a fight if it was onesided. Later on Goku even commented on how Zamasu had crazy potential and could potentially rival Beerus if he kept training.

This argument doesn't make any sense as we've seen Zamasu significantly below the others except for Future Trunks, but still not as strong. His immortality is what makes him a large threat.

We've also seen Zamasu trade blows with SSB Goku and even push him back at one point, so no he can't be far below their level. That would mean he couldn't even touch them, which isn't the case. And if he was far below their level, then they would casually be able to tear him apart, when that isn't the case either. In fact, he was able to withstand WAVES of ki blasts from an enraged SSB Goku without being torn apart.

Zamasu was extremely powerful, he tanked a SSGSS Final Kamehameha barely hurt

There's no indication that he was barely hurt. For all we know he was badly damaged and just regenerated quickly. We didn't see what happened to him right after the blast because he was hidden.

it's also strange how Infinite Zamasu didn't use that moment when the others were weakened to kill them

Cause he was completely deranged at that point. He probably didn't even notice they survived since he had basically devolved into a wild animal.

How can you be immortal and lose your body? It doesn't make any sense.

The body was no longer fully invincible, only the soul was thanks to the Dragon's power.

if you can't see that Toriyama has always made Dragon Ball Dragon Ball, then I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, I never even alluded to that, but okay... I never even said Toriyama is bad or doesn't know how to write Dragon Ball. I thank him a lot for coming up with the concept of Zamasu as a character, but that being said I personally do not believe I would have preferred his original draft on Fused Zamasu's strength, and gave my reasons why that is. That doesn't mean I suddenly think he doesn't know how to write Dragon Ball or Toei knows much better than Toriyama. And perhaps Toriyama would have changed my mind if he went through with his idea, who knows, because we never saw his version of the story as you said. But in my opinion his original draft wouldn't align very will with the concept of Fused Zamasu, this almighty god that serves as the final villain of a very dark arc.

and Infinite Zamasu was also very strange and was extremely complicated lore wise to understand.

How was it extremely complicated to understand? I understand where you're coming from, it's a very weird concept, but I think it was pretty straightforward to understand, since it is explained how Infinite Zamasu came to be. Maybe you wanted to say that those explanations did not make much sense or felt asspull-ish.

Plus I'm pretty sure Infinite Zamasu was in the original draft, especially since he appears in both mediums, so that is a Toriyama thing. Fused Zamasu was always going to be a much bigger threat, one that two SSBs wouldn't possibly be able to handle. And that's why earlier I asked you: what was the point of having Fused Zamasu weaker than two SSBs to change things a bit, when later on you're still going to write the final villain as much stronger than the protagonists?

Having Fusion Zamasu be stronger than one but struggle with two SSGSS' is not a stretch at all. It makes sense how the fusion between Goku Black and Zamasu wouldn't be strong enough to trump everyone,

Not really. Especially when you take into account the fact that Fused Zamasu was part Black, and Black displayed incredible leaps in power throughout the arc. Just by fighting Goku once he was able to increase his power tremendously. In ep. 64 his power skyrocketed beyond his own comprehension because he stabbed his hand, so it's not that crazy that Fused Zamasu was able to get a power boost that rivals Vegito after frying half of his body. Before he went Corrupted he certainly would have stood no chance against Vegito, and was already setback twice by two SSBs. That's what people often downplay, Fused Zamasu wasn't just immortal, he also had Saiyan cells and those are a great boost to have. As Kefla said, "hurray for being born a Saiyan!".

Regardless, I think this is very off-topic. Maybe it's best if we go back to Vegeta's form, which is what you wanted to discuss.

[Miracles]

I'm not big on people spreading misinformation.

Toei's Battle of Gods draft was about an evil lizard who took over people's minds and was responsible for making the Saiyans evil. Toriyama didn't just completely rework the story concept and tone, he flat-out gave Watanabe an outline "that was already finished up like a script" - 60 minutes of material, to be exact, later given a few additions by Watanabe that were then sometimes further re-adjusted by Toriyama (e.g. the group of thieves becoming the Pilaf gang). All of this information is available on Kanzenshuu's main site, so there's no excuses for twisting context.

The Battle of Gods script was predominantly Toriyama, not Toei. Watanabe's plans for the film were so barely recognizable after Toriyama's involvement that they might as well have been a different product altogether, not to mention his role as a scriptwriter mainly just came down to filling in the gaps in Toriyama's mostly already-finished script.

Without Toriyama, we'd have ended up with an edgy derivative GT 2.0 shitshow about people randomly getting possessed. In other words, a typical Toei affair. Yeah... no, I'm good.

Well there ya go. Thanks for the clarification. I knew Toriyama wrote the script for BoG, just couldn't remember how in depth.

Just glad he didn't let TOEI have their way, lol.

[Aim]

‪I mean, he's the creator of the story, if he was strongly opposed to Fused Zamasu being that strong then he would have told them to follow his original draft. Instead he didn't, and actually told Toyotaro that he liked his manga version of Fused Zamasu being stronger than Goku and Vegeta but weaker than Vegito.‬
‪Zamasu wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Son Goku post God, he was very skilled and was able to use Son's momentum against himself, that doesn't equal physical strength to that degree.‬
‪That's not it at all, he was able to outmanuever Goku at the beginning of the fight and would have finished him with one blow if Goku didnt parry with a ki blast, then he was able to block all of Goku's attacks, and when he was overpowered it was because he was under extreme emotional stress and was caught off guard. Also Goku told him that they should spar again another time so clearly he was enjoying that fight, and Goku wouldn't enjoy a fight if it was onesided. Later on Goku even commented on how Zamasu had crazy potential and could potentially rival Beerus if he kept training.

‬
‪Toriyama isn’t going to force others to follow his story exactly, even if he feels strongly against it. Super can be taken with a grain of salt as almost if not everything is inconsistent.‬

‪Toriyama is very vague about criticism, Toyotaro’s panels and overcrowded pages are plain shit, and Toriyama barely touched on that. Not to mention the anatomy and just plain gross way the spiked hair looks on characters. ‬

‪We've also seen Zamasu trade blows with SSB Goku and even push him back at one point, so no he can't be far below their level. That would mean he couldn't even touch them, which isn't the case. And if he was far below their level, then they would casually be able to tear him apart, when that isn't the case either. In fact, he was able to withstand WAVES of ki blasts from an enraged SSB Goku without being torn apart.

‬
‪Another inconsistency, a sword from Trunks can impale him, yet it still technically doesn’t count as damage, but enraged SSGSS Goku’s attacks he can “withstand”. Have you ever thought that he wasn’t withstanding anything, it’s just he’s immortal? Regeneration and immortality are different. Zamasu should not be able to go toe to toe with SSGSS’ or swap hands that easily regardless.‬

‪There's no indication that he was barely hurt. For all we know he was badly damaged and just regenerated quickly. We didn't see what happened to him right after the blast because he was hidden.

‪He was shown taking damage from SSGSS Kaioken Goku, even Vegetto’s Spirit Sword hurt him. Yet he somehow comes flying out of the smoke not showing any sign of damage. ‬

‪Cause he was completely deranged at that point. He probably didn't even notice they survived since he had basically devolved into a wild animal.

‪Another thing that happens with all villains in this series, they get so deranged they miss things that they shouldn’t have missed, especially Zamasu considering he was basically one with the universe at that time.‬

‪The body was no longer fully invincible, only the soul was thanks to the Dragon's power.

‪That makes no sense, if fusing two bodies corrupts the immortality then merging the two souls should be no different. Since when does two characters fusing create a being that acts as ‘two sides’ of each of the fusees? ‬

‪
‪I mean, I never even alluded to that, but okay... I never even said Toriyama is bad or doesn't know how to write Dragon Ball. I thank him a lot for coming up with the concept of Zamasu as a character, but that being said I personally do not believe I would have preferred his original draft on Fused Zamasu's strength, and gave my reasons why that is.

‪I’m saying that Toei’s version of the events doesn’t feel like Dragon Ball. Toriyama has even stated he likes going against expectations, he likes mixing things up, the way Toriyama wrote the arc is exactly how Toriyama does things.‬

‪

‪That doesn't mean I suddenly think he doesn't know how to write Dragon Ball or Toei knows much better than Toriyama. And perhaps Toriyama would have changed my mind if he went through with his idea, who knows, because we never saw his version of the story as you said.

‪You basically are, you’re saying Toriyama would have made a mistake making Zamasu not as strong as two SSGSS’, compared to Toei which has Super all over the place. I’m arguing that Toriyama has always done Dragon Ball justice even though he’s written some pretty shitty stories, they would be way worse written by Toei.‬

‪

‪But in my opinion his original draft wouldn't align very will with the concept of Fused Zamasu, this almighty god that serves as the final villain of a very dark arc.

‪A god that thinks their almighty, a god that’s hypocritical, a god that probably didn’t understand the potara as well as their elder. I have no doubt in my mind Fusion Zamasu would have been strong, and just because he would struggle against two SSGSS’ doesn’t mean he wouldn’t put up a fight, especially considering his immortality. ‬

‪How was it extremely complicated to understand? I understand where you're coming from, it's a very weird concept, but I think it was pretty straightforward to understand, since it is explained how Infinite Zamasu came to be. Maybe you wanted to say that those explanations did not make much sense or felt asspull-ish./

‪Someone being immortal somehow loses their body then becomes one with the universe, how? Because his souls immortal? It doesn’t make sense, by that logic any immortal soul could take everything over. It would have made more sense that an immortal soul/body couldn’t be destroyed, final. Either that or Zamasu’s soul wonders for eternity or somehow finds a way to to come back since he’s immortal.‬

‪

‪Plus I'm pretty sure Infinite Zamasu was in the original draft, especially since he appears in both mediums, so that is a Toriyama thing.

‪It’s never been said ‘infinite’ Zamasu was in the original script. If so I doubt it would be like what Toei portrayed.‬

‪Fused Zamasu was always going to be a much bigger threat, one that two SSBs wouldn't possibly be able to handle. And that's why earlier I asked you: what was the point of having Fused Zamasu weaker than two SSBs to change things a bit, when later on you're still going to write the final villain as much stronger than the protagonists?

‪You didn’t bother reading what I wrote, I’ll repeat it one more time. ‬

‪Fused Zamasu being handled by two SSGSS’ with difficulty isn’t a stretch, what would make him dangerous is his immortality, meaning he’d slowly drain Son and Vegeta as they fought.‬

‪It’s been a trend in Dragon Ball for such a long time a villain becoming deranged and defeated when they are overpowered, I image Zamasu may not have won against two SSGSS’ if it was not for his immortality. Goku Black + Zamasu shouldn’t equal a being that powerful, it’s not like they’re that close in power compared to Son and Vegeta. You’ve also got to take into account Toriyama’s SSGSS is way stronger than what is put forward by Toei and Toyo. I doubt you’d see Goku and Vegeta using it in the original draft as much like in the adaptations we’ve seen so far. ‬

‪Not really. Especially when you take into account the fact that Fused Zamasu was part Black, and Black displayed incredible leaps in power throughout the arc. Just by fighting Goku once he was able to increase his power tremendously. In ep. 64 his power skyrocketed beyond his own comprehension because he stabbed his hand, so it's not that crazy that Fused Zamasu was able to get a power boost that rivals Vegito after frying half of his body. Before he went Corrupted he certainly would have stood no chance against Vegito, and was already setback twice by two SSBs. That's what people often downplay, Fused Zamasu wasn't just immortal, he also had Saiyan cells and those are a great boost to have. As Kefla said, "hurray for being born a Saiyan!".

‬
‪As I’ve said before, the Super anime is all over the place, and you can tell it’s a far stretch away from Toriyama’s vision. ‬

‪Goku Black is so broken in the anime, gaining power ups from fights that don’t cause near deaths, it doesn’t help his Super Saiyan Rosé form is his own unique form of Super Saiyan, described as a “Goku Black version of Super Saiyan”. I just can’t keep arguing with someone who keeps referring to a very flawed adaptation of what Super should have been. Even if it wasn’t great from Toriyama, I don’t believe it would be as bad as what we’ve seen.‬

‪Regardless, I think this is very off-topic. Maybe it's best if we go back to Vegeta's form, which is what you wanted to discuss.

‬
‪I’ll probably make another post about this. Especially considering how many people believe that just because the manga explained Super Saiyan Rosé to be SSGSS, it means it applies to the anime, which has stated it’s a ‘Goku Black version of Super Saiyan’. ‬

[SupremeKai25]

Another inconsistency, a sword from Trunks can impale him, yet it still technically doesn’t count as damage, but enraged SSGSS Goku’s attacks he can “withstand”. Have you ever thought that he wasn’t withstanding anything, it’s just he’s immortal? Regeneration and immortality are different. Zamasu should not be able to go toe to toe with SSGSS’ or swap hands that easily regardless.‬

Immortality doesn't mean that your body can't be damaged, so much so that in the manga Fused Zamasu is torn apart several times despite being immortal. If Zamasu were that much weaker than the Saiyans, just a few ki blasts would be enough to completely tear his body apart. And yet Zamasu was never torn apart by any attack, aside from that one ki blast that tore off his face because he was caught off guard.

We see what happens when an opponent is very inferior. Trunks vs. Mecha Freeza, Trunks obliterates him with a few sword swings and one ki blast. Trunks vs. the Androids, they get obliterated with one ki blast each. Trunks vs. Cell, again, Cell obliterated with one attack. Buu vs. Babidi, Buu disintegrates his head with one punch. Saiyans/Trunks vs. Future Zamasu? Future Zamasu never gets obliterated (even Rosé kamehameha didn't damage him in any way), and as I already proved earlier immortality does not make your body immune to taking physical damage, it can still be torn apart. So, Future Zamasu cannot possibly be so absurdly inferior to his opponents. He's still not SSB level, because he was always getting pushed back in fights with them, but he was not fodder.

He was shown taking damage from SSGSS Kaioken Goku, even Vegetto’s Spirit Sword hurt him. Yet he somehow comes flying out of the smoke not showing any sign of damage. ‬

He could have regenerated the damage. As I already mentioned earlier, we never actually see what happens to Fused Zamasu under the smoke.

Another thing that happens with all villains in this series, they get so deranged they miss things that they shouldn’t have missed, especially Zamasu considering he was basically one with the universe at that time.‬

Yeah, because if they didn't miss those things the show would be over. Suspension of disbelief is required here.

That makes no sense, if fusing two bodies corrupts the immortality then merging the two souls should be no different. Since when does two characters fusing create a being that acts as ‘two sides’ of each of the fusees? ‬

Only the immortality of the body was corrupted, not the immortality of the soul. And yes, I already criticized that aspect of the anime version and even commended the manga for making hum fully immortal, which was closer to Toriyama's version in that regard.

Also, technically there was no merging of souls. Both the fusées were Zamasu, they had the same soul, the only difference is that Future Zamasu's soul was granted immortality by the Dragon and thus that effect carried over to the fusion.

I’m saying that Toei’s version of the events doesn’t feel like Dragon Ball. Toriyama has even stated he likes going against expectations, he likes mixing things up, the way Toriyama wrote the arc is exactly how Toriyama does things.‬

Vegito not stomping an enemy for once is not going against expectations?

You basically are, you’re saying Toriyama would have made a mistake making Zamasu not as strong as two SSGSS’, compared to Toei which has Super all over the place. I’m arguing that Toriyama has always done Dragon Ball justice even though he’s written some pretty shitty stories, they would be way worse written by Toei.‬

What? Just because I said, AS FAR AS THAT PARTICULAR PLOT POINT IS CONCERNED, I prefer Toei's version does not mean I said that Toriyama doesn't know how to write Dragon Ball.

A god that thinks their almighty, a god that’s hypocritical, a god that probably didn’t understand the potara as well as their elder. I have no doubt in my mind Fusion Zamasu would have been strong, and just because he would struggle against two SSGSS’ doesn’t mean he wouldn’t put up a fight, especially considering his immortality. ‬

Yes, that's him, Fused Zamasu, the final villain of the darkest arc of Super, the fusion that was foreshadowed since the beginning of the arc. Call me an hyperactive kid, a brat who doesn't understand Toriyama, everything you want, but I personally think Fused Zamasu's only advantage shouldn't be his immortality.

Someone being immortal somehow loses their body then becomes one with the universe, how? Because his souls immortal? It doesn’t make sense, by that logic any immortal soul could take everything over.

Given how Fused Zamasu was the first case ever of an immortal willingly losing their body, yes, it is entirely possible that any immortal being could latch onto the cosmos. It's not like there was any precedent, aside from Garlic Jr, who never lost his body.

It’s never been said ‘infinite’ Zamasu was in the original script. If so I doubt it would be like what Toei portrayed.

Given how both mediums adapted it, since neither anime nor manga end at Fused Zamasu's defeat, it's clear it was. And even if for some reason it wasn't certain, earlier you said Toriyama likes subverting expectations. What better way to subvert expectation by having the villain return stronger than ever after he was seemingly obliterated, and the multiverse being erased at the end?

Fused Zamasu being handled by two SSGSS’ with difficulty isn’t a stretch, what would make him dangerous is his immortality, meaning he’d slowly drain Son and Vegeta as they fought.‬

Not really.... I mean, the entire point of them taking turns fighting him is precisely so that they don't get drained. Plus they have senzu beans and Kai powers to heal in-between rounds.

Goku Black is so broken in the anime, gaining power ups from fights that don’t cause near deaths, it doesn’t help his Super Saiyan Rosé form is his own unique form of Super Saiyan, described as a “Goku Black version of Super Saiyan”. I just can’t keep arguing with someone who keeps referring to a very flawed adaptation of what Super should have been. Even if it wasn’t great from Toriyama, I don’t believe it would be as bad as what we’ve seen.‬

Not really that broken, when it was already stated that Zamasu was a fighting genius and a prodigy. Freeza trained for 4 months and got huge boosts in power. It's not that far-fetched that Zamasu would be able to use Goku's body to its full potential. Plus he wasn't that strong at the beginning, yes he was able to spar with SS2 in Base form, but if he went SSB he would've been stomped. It's only after he started learning more about Goku from direct experience that he unlocked the true potential of that body.

Also, what does the bolded part mean? How do you talk about Super if you don't refer to neither the anime nor manga?

[Grimlock]

‪I’ll probably make another post about this. Especially considering how many people believe that just because the manga explained Super Saiyan Rosé to be SSGSS, it means it applies to the anime, which has stated it’s a ‘Goku Black version of Super Saiyan’. ‬

If you are going to use a promotional statement, you shouldn't bother. Though there are things that must be kept in a certain continuity, the explanation of Super Saiyan Rosé is not one of them. Unless you can prove that it was stated Super Saiyan Rosé is the equivalent of Super Saiyan rather than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the anime itself, what is established in the anime and manga trumps whatever it was stated by promotional stuff.

[Miracles]

Toriyama himself wrote that Black has the golden SSJ like Goku and then Super Saiyan Rose of a different color from Blue. Which means Rose is Black's SSGSS form.

Regardless of what TOEI or Toyotaro writes, since this is Toriyama's story. Big ups to Toyotaro following this plot point from Toriyama tho. TOEI gave no in story explanation.

[emperior]

‪I’ll probably make another post about this. Especially considering how many people believe that just because the manga explained Super Saiyan Rosé to be SSGSS, it means it applies to the anime, which has stated it’s a ‘Goku Black version of Super Saiyan’. ‬

If you are going to use a promotional statement, you shouldn't bother. Though there are things that must be kept in a certain continuity, the explanation of Super Saiyan Rosé is not one of them. Unless you can prove that it was stated Super Saiyan Rosé is the equivalent of Super Saiyan rather than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the anime itself, what is established in the anime and manga trumps whatever it was stated by promotional stuff.

Actually the anime may have stated it:

Spoiler:

See how Goku says Super Saiyan, no mention of God. Surely they would have mentioned it if Black’s ki was different when transforming, as it would have been a big clue that he was, in fact, a God too (and not a copy of Son Goku).

Also, we have to consider that in the anime Trunks could sense Black’s Ki, therefore he wasn’t using God Ki. I don’t remember if he ever sensed Black’s Ki in Rosè, but I’m quite sure he did but, either way, the fact he could sense base Black’s Ki means every theory of Black using God Ki in his base form is invalid.

I bet Toei read Toriyama’s notes and, for some reason, thought that he meant Black could turn into a normal Super Saiyan with a color different than usual while, in fact, Toriyama meant that Black could turn both standard Super Saiyan and Rosè.
But maybe they decided to skip Super Saiyan on purpose because it didn’t suit the way they wanted to tell the story. It seems like their intention was that of Black feeling extremely threatening up until the end. And maybe they wanted Rosè to be as iconic as possible.

It seems like in the anime Black has standard human Ki, yet it’s very similar to Zamasu’s. He’s a special case, maybe sort of a mix between God Ki and Human Ki and therefore his Super Saiyan form is different.
Power scaling wise it would even make sense considering that, before going Rosè, Black seemed like he was already above Blue Vegeta.
While in the manga it was never mentioned if Black had the same ki as Zamasu. We just know that Zamasu assumes his Godly status made Black’s Super Saiyan Blue form different in color.

[Aim]

Not really that broken, when it was already stated that Zamasu was a fighting genius and a prodigy. Freeza trained for 4 months and got huge boosts in power. It's not that far-fetched that Zamasu would be able to use Goku's body to its full potential. Plus he wasn't that strong at the beginning, yes he was able to spar with SS2 in Base form, but if he went SSB he would've been stomped. It's only after he started learning more about Goku from direct experience that he unlocked the true potential of that body.

Also, what does the bolded part mean? How do you talk about Super if you don't refer to neither the anime nor manga?

I'm referring to the notes we got from Toriyama and trying to piece everything together. Frieza and Goku are different species. Goku Black is broken, fusing was the worst thing he could have done, he was dominating the others once again and yet still went to Zamasu to fuse, it just goes to show how Toei's adaptation is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

If you are going to use a promotional statement, you shouldn't bother. Though there are things that must be kept in a certain continuity, the explanation of Super Saiyan Rosé is not one of them. Unless you can prove that it was stated Super Saiyan Rosé is the equivalent of Super Saiyan rather than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the anime itself, what is established in the anime and manga trumps whatever it was stated by promotional stuff.

There are numerous instances it was stated to be Super Saiyan.







The manga and anime are separate, regardless of what Toriyama said, anime Rosé is different from manga Rosé. Toei decided to go a very different route compared to what Toriyama had in mind.

Toriyama himself wrote that Black has the golden SSJ like Goku and then Super Saiyan Rose of a different color from Blue. Which means Rose is Black's SSGSS form.

Regardless of what TOEI or Toyotaro writes, since this is Toriyama's story. Big ups to Toyotaro following this plot point from Toriyama tho. TOEI gave no in story explanation.

You can't incorporate Toriyama's ideas into a story that takes a very different direction and then stuck with that. In the 2015 Super anime, it's different.

[Miracles]

Toriyama himself wrote that Black has the golden SSJ like Goku and then Super Saiyan Rose of a different color from Blue. Which means Rose is Black's SSGSS form.

Regardless of what TOEI or Toyotaro writes, since this is Toriyama's story. Big ups to Toyotaro following this plot point from Toriyama tho. TOEI gave no in story explanation.

You can't incorporate Toriyama's ideas into a story that takes a very different direction and then stuck with that. In the 2015 Super anime, it's different.

Yeah. I'm just saying Toriyama's story takes precedent, since he is the author and his view is what ultimately counts.

[Aim]

I know that. I'm just saying Toriyama's story takes precedent, since he is the author and his view is what ultimately counts.

Oh, okay. I totally agree on that.

[BagetaSama]

I don't see how it's minor resemblance to Grade 2 messes with the lore at all. Grade 2 is stronger and faster than Grade 4, but is more draining than Grade 4, in this case, SSBE, assuming it is "power stressed" in the same way(it's never stated, this is mostly speculation), it would be like SSBKK in that it is sacrifices stamina in favor of power. This, if anything does a good job of emulating what Goku is doing with SSBKKx20. The idea that "big muscles are too slow!" doesn't even come into play, given that at absolute most the muscle mass emulates Grade 2(probably less), not Grade 3. Therefore, there should be no loss in speed.

“Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.” - Akira Toriyama Twel-Boo Mysteries

It wouldn’t be far fetched to assume that Toriyama meant the grades between Super Saiyan 1 and 2. Grade 2 and 3 are extremely flawed compared to 2 and 3.

There’s a reason why Super Saiyan was going to be mostly used in its first state rather than the others.

I mean yeah, his rationale for not using SSJ2 and SSJ3 anymore is that they use too much stamina. Grade 4 is superior to Grade 2 for the same reasons. But in the same way that Kaioken drains stamina, SSBE drains stamina in the way of increasing muscle mass. It's a risk-reward type of thing.

[Grimlock]

Actually the anime may have stated it:

Spoiler:

See how Goku says Super Saiyan, no mention of God. Surely they would have mentioned it if Black’s ki was different when transforming, as it would have been a big clue that he was, in fact, a God too (and not a copy of Son Goku).

There are numerous instances it was stated to be Super Saiyan.

May be one of those frequent cases of inaccuracy. Here are a few more examples, Super Saiyan 2 is referred as "Super Saiyan" at least twice, and one of them by Whis, who shouldn't really be making this common mistake:

Spoiler:

"Inaccuracy" is a very recurring word throughout Dragon Ball Super, so it shouldn't surprise anyone they would go out of their way to call Super Saiyan Rosé an equivalent to Super Saiyan.

Also, we have to consider that in the anime Trunks could sense Black’s Ki, therefore he wasn’t using God Ki. I don’t remember if he ever sensed Black’s Ki in Rosè, but I’m quite sure he did but, either way, the fact he could sense base Black’s Ki means every theory of Black using God Ki in his base form is invalid.

And we also have to consider that in the anime Trunks could sense Vegetto's Ki (couldn't find a subbed version, but it's there in the Kanzenshuu's summary). What do we do now? Accept that Trunks can sense god Ki? Call it bullshit on both sides? Slap Trunks on the face? You call it.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm referring to the notes we got from Toriyama and trying to piece everything together. Frieza and Goku are different species. Goku Black is broken, fusing was the worst thing he could have done, he was dominating the others once again and yet still went to Zamasu to fuse, it just goes to show how Toei's adaptation is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Have you considered that maybe that was the point? That Black overreacted and shouldn't have made the mistake of fusing so early? Maybe their intention was having the villain make a mistake, the answer is not always bad and inconsistent writing...

[Sadala Elite]

Be grateful OP. That form is a TOEI only original creation. It's not in Toriyama's movies.

But its in the DBS Manga, along with UI Omen (which was also a Toei creation, and better than Toriyama's MUI).

[Sadala Elite]

Toriyama himself wrote that Black has the golden SSJ like Goku and then Super Saiyan Rose of a different color from Blue. Which means Rose is Black's SSGSS form.

Regardless of what TOEI or Toyotaro writes, since this is Toriyama's story. Big ups to Toyotaro following this plot point from Toriyama tho. TOEI gave no in story explanation.

Toriyama barely writes any story for Super besides the Broly movie. All he does is give a vague outline of major events that's meant to happen (which isn't a strong basis for a story at all).

Also, SSJ Rose being Black's equal to SSB was Toyotaro's idea, not Toriyama's (where did he ever say this about SSJ Rose?).

And in the anime, Toei explained that SSJ Rose was Black's equal to SSJ1 (on top of his strong base).

[mute_proxy]

Also, SSJ Rose being Black's equal to SSB was Toyotaro's idea, not Toriyama's (where did he ever say this about SSJ Rose?).

In his design sheet notes here: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/810186407813619712

And in the anime, Toei explained that SSJ Rose was Black's equal to SSJ1 (on top of his strong base).

Toei didn't explain anything. Goku said it's a stronger version of SS. Which it is, as is SSGSS.

Also exposition in the form of Goku saying "He turned into a Super Saiyan Blue, with pink hair instead of blue" (as if he knows what's going on) and not just him generally calling it "a Super Saiyan with huge power" would be strange considering Goku as a character.

[Aim]

May be one of those frequent cases of inaccuracy. Here are a few more examples, Super Saiyan 2 is referred as "Super Saiyan" at least twice, and one of them by Whis, who shouldn't really be making this common mistake

Inconsistent? Super Saiyan 2 Trunks only appears twice as far as I know, I have a suspicion they purposely do these things like keep the hair the same for Trunks and Goku during their fight so they don’t have to do a design of it. I also suspect they pull these forms from the design sheets or the writer for the episode makes a comment like “Super Saiyan with sparking aura” in which it’s not clear what form they are referring to, when it comes to anime Super, for all we know that time Goku went “Super Saiyan 2” against Zamasu could have been regular Super Saiyan, but they leave it very vaguely using the term “a Super Saiyan”. Whis should be making this mistake because the people writing him suck, how are you going to take the word of anyone in Super when literally you have no explanation for why things are the way they are? I call bullshit on Goku being Super Saiyan 2 even though it looked like it, when Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 it’s not referred to as “he transformed into a Super Saiyan!”, they specifically use the numbers to name forms that are more obvious. Every other time Goku or Vegeta went SSGSS, they called it SSB, not ‘a Super Saiyan’.

"Inaccuracy" is a very recurring word throughout Dragon Ball Super, so it shouldn't surprise anyone they would go out of their way to call Super Saiyan Rosé an equivalent to Super Saiyan.

This argument falls apart when you take into consideration that every time Son and Co use SSGSS, it’s not just referred to as “Super Saiyan” like I said previously incase you missed that.

And we also have to consider that in the anime Trunks could sense Vegetto's Ki (couldn't find a subbed version, but it's there in the Kanzenshuu's summary). What do we do now? Accept that Trunks can sense god Ki? Call it bullshit on both sides? Slap Trunks on the face? You call it.

You just have to accept anime Super is strange in terms of how the world works, this is why Toei shouldn’t be left to their own devices. I don’t understand why you keep arguing in favor of Black’s Rosé being SSGSS when it’s not, in the anime at least. You said it even, inaccuracy. How are you going to now go and pull quotes from characters that were said once or twice during an arc that’s contradicting and full of inconsistencies?

Anime Super is Toei’s adaptation, I don’t care whether Toriyama says this or that, it doesn’t change the fact Toei’s Super is it’s own thing, as much as I hate the logic and prefer Toriyama’s ideas generally, if Toei states something for the anime, most of the time that is the case and it does fit within that seperate continuity.

Have you considered that maybe that was the point? That Black overreacted and shouldn't have made the mistake of fusing so early? Maybe their intention was having the villain make a mistake, the answer is not always bad and inconsistent writing...

You either don’t pay attention or you’re unable to grasp the situation and analyse it. What Black did was stupid, period. I can understand manga Black getting desperate, but anime Black has already ripped a dimensional hole(or something) and was kicking Goku and Vegeta around with his clones. Not to mention Black improved in an incredibly short amount of time, he had no reason to consider fusion other than the writers called for it. This is bad writing, it isn’t subjective, Black was not struggling the least with Goku and Vegeta, just because Zamasu’s ki disappeared for a second doesn’t mean it calls for fusion.

Go back, watch the arc, read the manga, compare the two, if you can’t see the ridiculousness of it all, then there’s no point in coming back and continuing this discussion.

In his design sheet notes here: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/810186407813619712

Where exactly does it say “Equivalent to Goku’s Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan”? All it states is “A Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku”.

Toei didn't explain anything. Goku said it's a stronger version of SS. Which it is, as is SSGSS.

I’m sorry, but that proves jack. SSGSS is almost always referring to as Blue throughout the series yet Black’s Rosé is just referred to as “Super Saiyan”? Have you ever considered that Toei probably didn’t know exactly how to explain it so they kept it very vague? As it is Toriyama’s notes were vague.

Also exposition in the form of Goku saying "He turned into a Super Saiyan Blue, with pink hair instead of blue" (as if he knows what's going on) and not just him generally calling it "a Super Saiyan with huge power" would be strange considering Goku as a character.

No it wouldn’t be strange, if anything Son would have referred to it as a “pink god form” if that was the case. Even throughout DBZ, forms have been referred to as their proper names 99% of the time, why change now?

I mean yeah, his rationale for not using SSJ2 and SSJ3 anymore is that they use too much stamina. Grade 4 is superior to Grade 2 for the same reasons. But in the same way that Kaioken drains stamina, SSBE drains stamina in the way of increasing muscle mass. It's a risk-reward type of thing.

Super Saiyan 2 and ‘Grade 4’ are better forms than Grade 2 and 3, there’s no reason for them to be using them, especially considering Super Saiyan can be trained to surpass 2 and 3 which I assume means the branches as well.

[emperior]

Toriyama himself wrote that Black has the golden SSJ like Goku and then Super Saiyan Rose of a different color from Blue. Which means Rose is Black's SSGSS form.

Regardless of what TOEI or Toyotaro writes, since this is Toriyama's story. Big ups to Toyotaro following this plot point from Toriyama tho. TOEI gave no in story explanation.

Toriyama barely writes any story for Super besides the Broly movie. All he does is give a vague outline of major events that's meant to happen (which isn't a strong basis for a story at all).

Also, SSJ Rose being Black's equal to SSB was Toyotaro's idea, not Toriyama's (where did he ever say this about SSJ Rose?).

And in the anime, Toei explained that SSJ Rose was Black's equal to SSJ1 (on top of his strong base).

Well if Toriyama wrote that Black had two different Super Saiyan forms, and Rosè also coincidentally turns out to be the opposite color of the one used for Super Saiyan Blue, then it’s fair to say thay Toriyama intended Rosè to be the equivalent of Blue and, in fact, had no problem with Toyotaro confirming it as such.

It’s not even rocket science if we consider how Toriyama writes Blue to be very strong, so of course a Goku-clone would use a form that is close to it.

Toei kept it very vague for some reason. As they also did with Black’s continuous power-ups.