Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

[The Undying]

The problem with Rosé in general is that, while the manga wastes no time explaining what it's supposed to be, the anime is almost pointlessly vague about it and never makes a single attempt to provide a straightforward answer. The fact that there's already so much speculation in this thread without any clear leads to go on speaks for itself.

My hunch says there's a reason for this: I'm not convinced Toei knows (truly knows) what SSR is to begin with, and as with all ambiguities in the anime, that probably came about from a serious lack of internal communication. We might hypothesize it was meant to be the same as the manga, but if that were the case, they obviously forgot to elaborate.

My stance is a pretty boring one, but I don't think this version of Super had much of an interpretation from the start. I guess calling it some alternate version of Super Saiyan is the "safest" answer.

[miguelnuva1]

SSJ God is a form and a way to introduce God Ki to a saiyan. Goku calls SSJ God and God Ki the same thing in the Super anime, he interchanges them. Once you master this God Ki you just need to turn SSJ to get blue or if you are a true God Rose.

Blue is the color of a false God or someone who become a God through unofficial means.

SSJ God is seen as a much bigger power increase when first used because it is first introducing the large wealth of God power and then the form is added on top of that.

Someone like Black doesn't need the ritual or the Ssj God form they just need to learn how to transform into a Ssj and thus it becomes SSJGSS in his case Rose.

[Dragon Wukong]

The problem with Rosé in general is that, while the manga wastes no time explaining what it's supposed to be, the anime is almost pointlessly vague about it and never makes a single attempt to provide a straightforward answer. The fact that there's already so much speculation in this thread without any clear leads to go on speaks for itself.

My hunch says there's a reason for this: I'm not convinced Toei knows (truly knows) what SSR is to begin with, and as with all ambiguities in the anime, that probably came about from a serious lack of internal communication. We might hypothesize it was meant to be the same as the manga, but if that were the case, they obviously forgot to elaborate.

My stance is a pretty boring one, but I don't think this version of Super had much of an interpretation from the start. I guess calling it some alternate version of Super Saiyan is the "safest" answer.

Pretty much this. The Toei staff seemed to be inconsistent internally when it came to defining anything. For instance, Berserk Kale was originally going to be considered SS2 according to old design sheets. Obviously that changed to the much less defined "Berserk."

Which is just what Rose is. An ambiguous form that they didn't know exactly how to explain it.

[Aim]

The problem with Rosé in general is that, while the manga wastes no time explaining what it's supposed to be, the anime is almost pointlessly vague about it and never makes a single attempt to provide a straightforward answer. The fact that there's already so much speculation in this thread without any clear leads to go on speaks for itself.

My hunch says there's a reason for this: I'm not convinced Toei knows (truly knows) what SSR is to begin with, and as with all ambiguities in the anime, that probably came about from a serious lack of internal communication. We might hypothesize it was meant to be the same as the manga, but if that were the case, they obviously forgot to elaborate.

My stance is a pretty boring one, but I don't think this version of Super had much of an interpretation from the start. I guess calling it some alternate version of Super Saiyan is the "safest" answer.

I agree, considering even in promotional material as well as in the anime it's stated to be some kind of alternative Super Saiyan form rather than SSGSS.

[Aim]

SSJ God is a form and a way to introduce God Ki to a saiyan. Goku calls SSJ God and God Ki the same thing in the Super anime, he interchanges them. Once you master this God Ki you just need to turn SSJ to get blue or if you are a true God Rose.

Blue is the color of a false God or someone who become a God through unofficial means.

SSJ God is seen as a much bigger power increase when first used because it is first introducing the large wealth of God power and then the form is added on top of that.

Someone like Black doesn't need the ritual or the Ssj God form they just need to learn how to transform into a Ssj and thus it becomes SSJGSS in his case Rose.

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that

Vegeta and Goku can transform into Super Saiyan God. Goku Black may be pure of heart as well as he believes what he is doing is right.

[Dragon Wukong]

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

Not him, but that is basically how SSG was treated in early DBS. Obviously things changed by the ToP, but it feels mostly like it was a retcon considering SSG had been "absorbed" until that arc.

[Aim]

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

Not him, but that is basically how SSG was treated in early DBS. Obviously things changed by the ToP, but it feels mostly like it was a retcon considering SSG had been "absorbed" until that arc.

Absorbing the power of a Super Saiyan God can be interpreted in different ways. You can interpret it as they literally absorb the form, so they are basically a god. The problem with that is that others could still sense their ki. Things changed way before the TOP, we saw the change as early as the Champa arc. We saw Super Saiyan's in the U6 vs U7 tournament, it shows they were already scrapping the idea of Saiyan Beyond God.

Absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God can also be perceived as being able to actually access that power without the use of the ritual.

[miguelnuva1]

SSJ God is a form and a way to introduce God Ki to a saiyan. Goku calls SSJ God and God Ki the same thing in the Super anime, he interchanges them. Once you master this God Ki you just need to turn SSJ to get blue or if you are a true God Rose.

Blue is the color of a false God or someone who become a God through unofficial means.

SSJ God is seen as a much bigger power increase when first used because it is first introducing the large wealth of God power and then the form is added on top of that.

Someone like Black doesn't need the ritual or the Ssj God form they just need to learn how to transform into a Ssj and thus it becomes SSJGSS in his case Rose.

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

They go Red because it's a form.

The first time you go Red you get a gigantic multiplier that craps of ssj3 potara. Goku then absorbs this power. Later when he goes Ssj G it's not that big of a multiplier because he's absorbed the realm of the gods.

Example

Ssj God ritual= 1,000x multiplier

Ssj God God ki absorbed= 10x multiplier.

SsjG looks like it does two things when you first get it, its joy one power up like Ssj it's two.

[Aim]

SSJ God is a form and a way to introduce God Ki to a saiyan. Goku calls SSJ God and God Ki the same thing in the Super anime, he interchanges them. Once you master this God Ki you just need to turn SSJ to get blue or if you are a true God Rose.

Blue is the color of a false God or someone who become a God through unofficial means.

SSJ God is seen as a much bigger power increase when first used because it is first introducing the large wealth of God power and then the form is added on top of that.

Someone like Black doesn't need the ritual or the Ssj God form they just need to learn how to transform into a Ssj and thus it becomes SSJGSS in his case Rose.

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

They go Red because it's a form.

The first time you go Red you get a gigantic multiplier that craps of ssj3 potara. Goku then absorbs this power. Later when he goes Ssj G it's not that big of a multiplier because he's absorbed the realm of the gods.

Example

Ssj God ritual= 1,000x multiplier

Ssj God God ki absorbed= 10x multiplier.

SsjG looks like it does two things when you first get it, its joy one power up like Ssj it's two.

Even then, your arguments fall short, you said god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same thing, they aren't. Regardless whether they learnt how to tap into Super Saiyan God or not doesn't change the fact Black is not a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, what about the proposition I came up with? What are everyone's collective thoughts?

It basically boils down to Super Saiyan Rosé being the same thing conceptually as Super Saiyan Blue, only it uses Goku Black's Kaioshin potential as a power source to empower Super Saiyan instead of using Super Saiyan God like with Goku and Vegeta, which in turn makes the hair pink and the pupils grey.

[Grimlock]

I wouldn't say it's your "proposition", that's exactly what Super Saiyan Rosé is. That's what Zamasu is referring when he says that instead of blue, when an actual god transforms into Super Saiyan the hair turns pink. Which means "blue" is for actual Saiyans. The power of (Super Saiyan) God is already there, due to the fact that Zamasu is a god. Theoretically he could turn Super Saiyan God, but it would be redundant since he's already one, so whether he has it or not it's irrelevant. The thing is that Zamasu has "merged" with Goku's body to the point of being able to access his Super Saiyan transformations, then he combines the Super Saiyan form with his natural god ki/power resulting in his own Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (or should I say Super Shinjin God Super Shinjin?), that he labels as "Super Saiyan Rosé". He even wants to name the form in a way that matches the way Goku and Vegeta name the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form, as "Super Saiyan Blue". Since it's pink for him, he chooses "rosé".

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if Toei willingly ignored it or whatever. Since this is most likely how Toriyama sees it based on that image, then that's how it is. As per usual, Toei (and Toyotaro, though in this case he seems to be closer to Toriyama's viewpoint) is not above the author and neither are mere promotional statements.

[miguelnuva1]

If that's the case how come they can go red? What you're saying is pure head canon and it has never been stated. Please, stop spreading misinformation, or at least if you're going to state something link your sources.

They go Red because it's a form.

The first time you go Red you get a gigantic multiplier that craps of ssj3 potara. Goku then absorbs this power. Later when he goes Ssj G it's not that big of a multiplier because he's absorbed the realm of the gods.

Example

Ssj God ritual= 1,000x multiplier

Ssj God God ki absorbed= 10x multiplier.

SsjG looks like it does two things when you first get it, its joy one power up like Ssj it's two.

Even then, your arguments fall short, you said god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same thing, they aren't. Regardless whether they learnt how to tap into Super Saiyan God or not doesn't change the fact Black is not a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the anime.

No I didn't, Goku treats them as the same thing. Black is a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan because SSJGSS is the same thing as SSJ. One is 50x base the other is 50x SSJ God. Black is a Saiyan God without having to turn into the Red SSJG form the same way Goku and Vegeta don't have to be red first to hit blue.

[Aim]

So, what about the proposition I came up with? What are everyone's collective thoughts?

It basically boils down to Super Saiyan Rosé being the same thing conceptually as Super Saiyan Blue, only it uses Goku Black's Kaioshin potential as a power source to empower Super Saiyan instead of using Super Saiyan God like with Goku and Vegeta, which in turn makes the hair pink and the pupils grey.

Spoiler:

Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that SSR is exactly the same as SSB in concept. Maybe similar, but not exact. Well, unless evil Saiyans can also attain the power of SSG.

Goku Black believes what he is doing is justice, it can be argued he is pure of heart and that he believes what he is doing is for the sake of the universe which is pure of heart technically.

Spoiler:

Since SSB seems like the full expression of power that Super Saiyan can attain (via SSG empowering the SS form), I imagine that SSR is simply the equivalent for Goku Black, being the fullest level of power that his Super Saiyan form can express.

I agree, it is the full expression he can probably achieve similar to how SSGSS is to Son and Vegeta, however it's not the equivalent in terms of what Super Saiyan Rosé actually is.

Spoiler:

In essence, it's him learning to channel every bit of his godly potential and combining it with SS into his ultimate Saiyan form. So, a bit of manga and a bit of anime in execution. It's not simply infusing SSG into SS, but it also isn't simply normal Super Saiyan. Godly power combined with Saiyan potential into its perfect fusion. In that sense, only Goku Black could ever attain SSR given his unique circumstances.

=

I know it's a bit hard and vague to gauge what this means, but think of it like this: Goku Black's SSR is equivalent to SSR, but instead of empowering SS with SSG to make SSB, he empowers his SS form with the full potential of his Zamasu Ki/soul. It's in essence a substitution.

I can get behind this theory and is something I proposed in my post, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's own unique Super Saiyan form, if we make the assumption that he can't actually access yellow haired Super Saiyan then technically this is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan, but as Goku Black would say, it's "the pinnacle of beauty".

I actually find it strange Goku Black was fighting the way he was, no transformations, nothing, and it took him mastering Son Goku's power in order to reach that Super Saiyan form, which makes me believe Toei probably had no idea what Rosé actually was, but if we go by all the things that has been said and insinuated, then we can theorize what we just spoke about.

No I didn't, Goku treats them as the same thing. Black is a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan because SSJGSS is the same thing as SSJ. One is 50x base the other is 50x SSJ God. Black is a Saiyan God without having to turn into the Red SSJG form the same way Goku and Vegeta don't have to be red first to hit blue.

I can't believe you actually believe what you're saying, I can't tell whether you're trolling or not so I'll make this my last response to you.

Son does not treat SSGSS and Super Saiyan as the same thing. Goku and Vegeta did need Super Saiyan God or 'Red' in order to achieve SSGSS, it's incredibly obvious and has been insinuated throughout the series. As for Black being a Saiyan god; list. your. sources.

Base Goku Black could still be sensed by others, at least address that. Even if we do take what you're saying as fact then Rosé still wouldn't be SSGSS, because it was always referred to as Super Saiyan, Goku Black never referred to it as God, it's been stated by an official guide to be Super Saiyan or some kind of Goku Black version of the Super Saiyan form. If Goku Black already has the power of a god, then going Super Saiyan in your logic would just be Super Saiyan God, which is a far stretch considering all the cues that point to Rosé not being what Son Goku and Vegeta consider to be a "Super Saiyan God" form.

[ankokudaishogun]

Blue _IS_ Super Saiyan.
Only applied to a SSG base instead of a "mortal" base.
It's literally in the name: a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan.

If a Saiyan who got a divine base different from SSG goes Super Saiyan, thir hari color becomes pink.
(note: it's unknown if the color would vary depending on the soul or ANY non-saiyan soul would turn Rosé)
But it's still a Super Saiyan transformation, only over a different "base"!

[Aim]

Blue _IS_ Super Saiyan.
Only applied to a SSG base instead of a "mortal" base.
It's literally in the name: a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan.

If a Saiyan who got a divine base different from SSG goes Super Saiyan, thir hari color becomes pink.
(note: it's unknown if the color would vary depending on the soul or ANY non-saiyan soul would turn Rosé)
But it's still a Super Saiyan transformation, only over a different "base"!

Ohhh okay, I misunderstood you. Even then, SSGSS isn't regular Super Saiyan, it's as you said:

Spoiler:

a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan.

You also gotta keep in mind that Saiyan Beyond God seems like it was scrapped, there's no different base, it's just combining the form or 'power' (possibly the same thing) with Super Saiyan.

Rosé is still a Goku Black version of Super Saiyan, it isn't SSGSS. the different color scheme was explained in the manga, but not in the anime.

[The Undying]

Lots of misinformation going around ITT. Rosé does not use a different predecessor form than Blue - at least not in the manga.

Blue and Rosé are both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; Blue is a mortal's version of it, Rosé is a deity's version of it. It actually is that simple. Neither one of them are somehow independent of Super Saiyan God, since the only known official explanation for Rosé (the manga) flat-out says it's the stage after Super Saiyan God. It's right there in Zamasu's dialogue. The anime might have a different interpretation, but we don't know what that could be because they don't provide one in the first place, though people are welcome to speculate. The manga's individual chapters are overseen and approved by Toriyama himself, so those naturally take priority over a non-description.

In either case, the argument that SSGSS doesn't first require SSG is completely unsubstantiated and isn't supported by official material in any capacity. We know it's linked to Super Saiyan God because that's what Zamasu explicitly says. That's what at least two DBS magazine guides have shown. That's what Beerus said, and what video game bios state. It's even in the name. They're not all just coincidentally lying.

[miguelnuva1]

Lots of misinformation going around ITT. Rosé does not use a different predecessor form than Blue - at least not in the manga.

Blue and Rosé are both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; Blue is a mortal's version of it, Rosé is a deity's version of it. It actually is that simple. Neither one of them are somehow independent of Super Saiyan God, since the only known official explanation for Rosé (the manga) flat-out says it's the stage after Super Saiyan God. It's right there in Zamasu's dialogue. The anime might have a different interpretation, but we don't know what that could be because they don't provide one in the first place, though people are welcome to speculate. The manga's individual chapters are overseen and approved by Toriyama himself, so those naturally take priority over a non-description.

In either case, the argument that SSGSS doesn't first require SSG is completely unsubstantiated and isn't supported by official material in any capacity. We know it's linked to Super Saiyan God because that's what Zamasu explicitly says. That's what at least two DBS magazine guides have shown. That's what Beerus said, and what video game bios state. It's even in the name. They're not all just coincidentally lying.

This thank you.

[miguelnuva1]

No I didn't, Goku treats them as the same thing. Black is a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan because SSJGSS is the same thing as SSJ. One is 50x base the other is 50x SSJ God. Black is a Saiyan God without having to turn into the Red SSJG form the same way Goku and Vegeta don't have to be red first to hit blue.

I can't believe you actually believe what you're saying, I can't tell whether you're trolling or not so I'll make this my last response to you.

Son does not treat SSGSS and Super Saiyan as the same thing. Goku and Vegeta did need Super Saiyan God or 'Red' in order to achieve SSGSS, it's incredibly obvious and has been insinuated throughout the series. As for Black being a Saiyan god; list. your. sources.

Base Goku Black could still be sensed by others, at least address that. Even if we do take what you're saying as fact then Rosé still wouldn't be SSGSS, because it was always referred to as Super Saiyan, Goku Black never referred to it as God, it's been stated by an official guide to be Super Saiyan or some kind of Goku Black version of the Super Saiyan form. If Goku Black already has the power of a god, then going Super Saiyan in your logic would just be Super Saiyan God, which is a far stretch considering all the cues that point to Rosé not being what Son Goku and Vegeta consider to be a "Super Saiyan God" form.

Goku treats God Ki and Ssj God as the same thing initially. Later he says Blue is Just a saiyan with ssjgod power going ssj.

The only difference between yellow ssj and ssj blue is that one saiyan is going ssj and then other has God ki or the power of ssj God.

Blue is a new form from ssj but only because the power of ssj God has been mixed with it but the just of the form is the same turning ssj.

Rose is also Ssjgss but it's when a true god transforms instead of a mortal saiyan.

As for black being a saiyan God I don't need sources when its stated in the series. A god stole Goku's body and mixed his ki with Goku's. That's stated in the series.

The ritual gives access to Super Saiyan God and makes the saiyan a saiyan God which is just saiyan with access to god God ki.

Vegeta trained with Whis and then in the God ki room which made him a saiyan God(unofficial term).

Black was a saiyan God from day 1. When a saiyan God trains and harmonizes their ki and becomes a super saiyan they become a ssjgss.

All this confusion is because Black works like the pre U6 Goku and Vegeta and the yellow forms were reintroduced.

You don't have to agree with me but can we leave the name calling out kf this. I assume we're all adults here just trying to discuss a series we all like and share our opinions.

I'm trying to respect yours and I would like the same if possible.

[Aim]

Lots of misinformation going around ITT. Rosé does not use a different predecessor form than Blue - at least not in the manga.

Blue and Rosé are both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; Blue is a mortal's version of it, Rosé is a deity's version of it. It actually is that simple. Neither one of them are somehow independent of Super Saiyan God, since the only known official explanation for Rosé (the manga) flat-out says it's the stage after Super Saiyan God. It's right there in Zamasu's dialogue. The anime might have a different interpretation, but we don't know what that could be because they don't provide one in the first place, though people are welcome to speculate. The manga's individual chapters are overseen and approved by Toriyama himself, so those naturally take priority over a non-description.

In either case, the argument that SSGSS doesn't first require SSG is completely unsubstantiated and isn't supported by official material in any capacity. We know it's linked to Super Saiyan God because that's what Zamasu explicitly says. That's what at least two DBS magazine guides have shown. That's what Beerus said, and what video game bios state. It's even in the name. They're not all just coincidentally lying.

No one was arguing that the manga was the same as the anime, I specifically stated that Rosé is SSGSS in the manga.

The anime guide as I sourced stated it was Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan, if you want to bring dialogue and video games into it, then that supports what the anime treats it as.

Goku treats God Ki and Ssj God as the same thing initially. Later he says Blue is Just a saiyan with ssjgod power going ssj.

The only difference between yellow ssj and ssj blue is that one saiyan is going ssj and then other has God ki or the power of ssj God.

Blue is a new form from ssj but only because the power of ssj God has been mixed with it but the just of the form is the same turning ssj.

State your sources! Where does Goku ever imply that god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same? This is what's frustrating me, you're spreading misinformation and not even showing any sources to back up your case, I'm well aware of the stigma behind this topic but I tried my best to list all my sources, and it feels like you haven't bothered reading it because you're ignoring what I said in my thread.

Rose is also Ssjgss but it's when a true god transforms instead of a mortal saiyan.

As for black being a saiyan God I don't need sources when its stated in the series. A god stole Goku's body and mixed his ki with Goku's. That's stated in the series.

The ritual gives access to Super Saiyan God and makes the saiyan a saiyan God which is just saiyan with access to god God ki.

Vegeta trained with Whis and then in the God ki room which made him a saiyan God(unofficial term).

Black was a saiyan God from day 1. When a saiyan God trains and harmonizes their ki and becomes a super saiyan they become a ssjgss.

It's SSGSS in the manga, we can agree there, but not in the anime. If you think otherwise then show me your sources to help me understand. Super Saiyan God gives Saiyan's access to god ki, sure, but Goku Black as far as we know, not a Super Saiyan God in the anime. God ki and Super Saiyan God aren't the same thing. Super Saiyan God grants the user god ki as well as a boost to power because it is a Super Saiyan form as the name suggests.

Vegeta never became a 'Saiyan God', that's all head canon, unless you are referring to Super Saiyan God, which he did achieve.

Black couldn't have had god ki because everyone could sense his ki, if anything he had a high mortal power level.

If we do take into account your theory on the Saiyan God theme, then going Super Saiyan would result in Super Saiyan God;

Saiyan God + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God

Now how can Saiyan God equal SSGSS when it's not a Super Saiyan form? Unless you are referring to Super Saiyan God as Saiyan God, which is just more confusing, it still doesn't change the fact that Black wasn't a Super Saiyan God in base, it's incredibly obvious as I stated before.

All this confusion is because Black works like the pre U6 Goku and Vegeta and the yellow forms were reintroduced.

You don't have to agree with me but can we leave the name calling out kf this. I assume we're all adults here just trying to discuss a series we all like and share our opinions.

I'm trying to respect yours and I would like the same if possible.

I didn't call you any names, I'm getting slightly annoyed because I'm trying to take the conversation somewhere and you keep staying at base one ignoring everything I'm asking. You're causing more confusion because someone who sees this thread might see your posts and see you say something like

Spoiler:

All this confusion is because Black works like the pre U6 Goku and Vegeta and the yellow forms were reintroduced.

without any evidence may I add, which then makes the situation even worse because now we have a bunch of new fans who are unintentionally spreading something that isn't true.

Just give your sources and we will be able to understand each other better, sorry if I offended you.

[The Undying]

No one was arguing that the manga was the same as the anime, I specifically stated that Rosé is SSGSS in the manga.

That wasn't a reply to you, I'm just addressing some misconceptions I've seen floating around in this thread. Stuff like "they don't need to go red first to hit blue" and "Rosé has a different base" are plainly refuted by at least one medium, while the other medium is too unclear to support them.

I agree that people shouldn't be conflating Super Saiyan God with god ki. They're not the same - SSG is stated to beget god ki, not the other way around.

The anime guide as I sourced stated it was Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan, if you want to bring dialogue and video games into it, then that supports what the anime treats it as.

Right, but the difference is that the anime doesn't care enough to answer these questions by itself. This may not be anything more convoluted than "Rosé is SS1 in the anime but colored differently because of Black's ki".

I wouldn't think about it too much. Toei clearly doesn't.