I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[UpFromTheSkies]

You can't credit its success solely to having the Dragon Ball name and characters because if that's all that were needed for success then GT wouldn't have flopped.

Super has been just as successful if not more so than the original series.

If a new product with no name recognition was as sloppy as Super's been, it'd be lucky if it lasted a fraction of the time Super's been around. When it comes to GT, there are multiple interviews from the staff implying it was intended to be short from the start, such as Toriyama himself stating the intention was to keep DB going "for a bit longer". It obviously wasn't as successful as what came before, but it didn't outright fail either. Its dragon box and singles sales were the highest of the 3 anime, so there's that to go on.

More ? are you serious ? This is objectively false.

Compare TV ratings, box office revenue and merch sales. Super outdid the rest of the series and GT didn't do as well as Z.

[Skar]

Compare TV ratings, box office revenue and merch sales. Super outdid the rest of the series and GT didn't do as well as Z.

DBS had the lowest TV ratings out of any DB series including Kai. TV ratings are declining in general so it might not be the best measure of success. The recent movies had the highest box office revenue because the original author was involved like the last few One Piece movies written by Oda that were also the highest grossing in the franchise. It's obvious the recent DB movies wouldn't been as successful without Toriyama. Maybe they would've had a standalone movie but it's unlikely their version of BoG would've been as successful.

I don't think we have exact merchandise sales for the original run because Toei's financial reports only go back to the early 2000's on their website. Could you share where you got this information from? The original manga sold 250-300 million copies worldwide and the second or third best selling manga of all time but I don't know about merchandising, licensing, or DVD sales for the anime.

[Matches Malone]

TV ratings are declining in general so it might not be the best measure of success.

The recent movies had the highest box office revenue because the original author was involved like the last few One Piece movies written by Oda that were also the highest grossing in the franchise.

I don't think we have exact merchandise sales for the original run because Toei's financial reports only go back to the early 2000's on their website.

Super's ratings are less than both DB and Z's by over 75%. Of course there weren't streaming services back then, but the numbers are worth mentioning regardless.

Another difference is that these are actual movies, what we got before were 40-60 minute features put on screen along similar short features from other franchises. They were never made to make much $$$ to begin with.

Did franchises like DB get the kind of high quality merchandise it and others get now ?

The original manga sold 250-300 million copies worldwide.

These are Super's volume numbers in Japan from wikipedia:

Spoiler:

volumes 1 and 2 sold 594,342 copies,
volume 3 sold 236,720 copies,
volume 4 sold 267,417 copies,
volume 5 sold 400,000 copies,
volume 6 sold 216,871 copies,
volume 7 sold 208,796 copies,
volume 8 sold 314,269 copies,
volume 9 sold 188,027 copies,
volume 10 sold 196,204 copies,
volume 11 sold 119,283 copies,
volume 12 sold 146,305 copies,
volume 13 sold 155,095 copies.
This adds up to at least 3,043,329 tankōbon copies.

For a manga that holds such a recognizable brand name, these aren't anything to write home about, much less describe as being more successful than its predecessor.

To compare Super's volume sales to other manga sales, these are the numbers we have from 2019, which is when volumes 9,10,&11 released.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... 19/.153762

To give you an idea about how low Super's sales were, the volumes that released in 2019 may not have made the top 100.

Compare TV ratings, box office revenue and merch sales. Super outdid the rest of the series and GT didn't do as well as Z.

I think the above numbers should be enough to convince you of where super stands compared to its predecessor and other Shonen. You can like whatever you want, but when you start saying things such as " Super has been just as successful if not more so than the original series", it just makes you seem like an ignorant fanboy. What makes things worse is that you keep accusing people of using "nostalgia goggles" whenever they try to explain things to you. You might want to get your facts straight before doing that.

[kemuri07]

1. Nah

2. A better way to judge Toyotaro's ability is if he's allowed work on a manga of his own creation. The problem is less that he's a bad writer and more that Dragon Ball is a fucking ball and chain. There are expectations for this show both from an audience expectation as well as a business expectation to sell unit. Honestly, I think it's a minor miracle that the manga is decent since the anime is every bit the trainwreck I expected from a sequel series to a 20 year anime.

3. Since some of you are complaining about DBS being filled with fanservice--you guys do get that Dragon Ball Super in its entirety (both anime and manga) is one huge fan wank for the original series, right? It's by design, man.

[Kakkaroto735]

TV ratings are declining in general so it might not be the best measure of success.

The recent movies had the highest box office revenue because the original author was involved like the last few One Piece movies written by Oda that were also the highest grossing in the franchise.

I don't think we have exact merchandise sales for the original run because Toei's financial reports only go back to the early 2000's on their website.

Super's ratings are less than both DB and Z's by over 75%. Of course there weren't streaming services back then, but the numbers are worth mentioning regardless.

Another difference is that these are actual movies, what we got before were 40-60 minute features put on screen along similar short features from other franchises. They were never made to make much $$$ to begin with.

Did franchises like DB get the kind of high quality merchandise it and others get now ?

The original manga sold 250-300 million copies worldwide.

These are Super's volume numbers in Japan from wikipedia:

Spoiler:

volumes 1 and 2 sold 594,342 copies,
volume 3 sold 236,720 copies,
volume 4 sold 267,417 copies,
volume 5 sold 400,000 copies,
volume 6 sold 216,871 copies,
volume 7 sold 208,796 copies,
volume 8 sold 314,269 copies,
volume 9 sold 188,027 copies,
volume 10 sold 196,204 copies,
volume 11 sold 119,283 copies,
volume 12 sold 146,305 copies,
volume 13 sold 155,095 copies.
This adds up to at least 3,043,329 tankōbon copies.

For a manga that holds such a recognizable brand name, these aren't anything to write home about, much less describe as being more successful than its predecessor.

To compare Super's volume sales to other manga sales, these are the numbers we have from 2019, which is when volumes 9,10,&11 released.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... 19/.153762

To give you an idea about how low Super's sales were, the volumes that released in 2019 may not have made the top 100.

Compare TV ratings, box office revenue and merch sales. Super outdid the rest of the series and GT didn't do as well as Z.

I think the above numbers should be enough to convince you of where super stands compared to its predecessor and other Shonen. You can like whatever you want, but when you start saying things such as " Super has been just as successful if not more so than the original series", it just makes you seem like an ignorant fanboy. What makes things worse is that you keep accusing people of using "nostalgia goggles" whenever they try to explain things to you. You might want to get your facts straight before doing that.

I think the fans are only looking at the potential of Super as a successor to Z and not at the level of quality compared to Z objectively. Dragon Ball fans don't really have high standards and Super won't be hurt by Toyo's shitty choices in writing. A lot of the fans want more content and flashy fights and not a satisfying end or good character arcs. Dragon Ball is doomed to become shittier if we continue it for 3 decades just for a profit and fans will keep eating that crap up. Toyo is a fan writer and obviously parts of that community will affect his work here and it shows. I honestly feel as if he is better when he's developing other people's concepts and characters but shit at creating his own.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't have a problem with fan-service because it's not always negative. For example: Vegito's involvement in the Future Trunks arc is fan-service done right. Toriyama's original script was stupid, he wanted to write Fused Zamasu -- the FINAL villain of the arc -- as fodder who couldn't even beat a Super Saiyan Blue. Both the anime and manga at least put some respect on his name by having Vegito enter the picture. Ultimately this is fiction, its main purpose is not to make sense, but to be entertaining. And I guarantee you that having a fusion battle was more entertaining than not having one.

So really I can't blame Toyotaro for caving into fan demands at times, such as when he had the idea to use Vegito for the Future Trunks arc. Sometimes you just have to give the fans what they want, you know?

[Cipher]

Feels kind of like barking up the wrong tree to ask if Super will achieve anything close to the legacy of the original DB, or to anticipate that it would.

There are sequels and revivals that wind up elevating the original material as a whole, but that was unlikely to be the case for something of DB's light nature, and especially difficult given the midquel status Super was saddled with. (Which is something that can be laid on Toriyama--a trade of potential longevity for limitations of scope.) And it was never going to reach the level of influence of the original period, being a sequel. Even the most incredible, elevating revivals and sequels can't be expected to do that, coming in with baggage as they do.

The standards Super has to answer to are 1) will it be entertaining enough for its target audience such that new, younger readers might fall into DB as a whole, and 2) will it be entertaining enough as an option for those who finish DB and are interested in reading or watching more. (Given DB's incredibly large fanbase, that's not too limited a pool.) Whether it achieves those goals is down to figures and individual perspectives, but even with remarkable execution, it never set itself up to be a series to be recommended to adult readers without pre-existing investment in DB.

I do enjoy Super well enough, but I'm meeting it on its terms when I say it's also not a series I would ever have reason to recommend to someone who hasn't already been through and enjoyed DB. I think that's fine, really.

[Matches Malone]

A lot of the fans want more content and flashy fights and not a satisfying end or good character arcs.

Dragon Ball is doomed to become shittier if we continue it for 3 decades just for a profit and fans will keep eating that crap up.

This is unfortunately very true.

I agree, DB reached its natural conclusion back in the 90s. You can get away with new stories here and there, but not something indefinite.

Sometimes you just have to give the fans what they want.

"When you listen to fans, you'll eventually be sitting next to them". This was said by a football coach, and he couldn't have been more right.

The problem is less that he's a bad writer and more that Dragon Ball is a fucking ball and chain.

Since some of you are complaining about DBS being filled with fanservice--you guys do get that Dragon Ball Super in its entirety is one huge fan wank for the original series, right? It's by design, man.

I completely agree. I always thought the powers at be should've had BOG be a one time project and moved on to a completely new IP with Toriyama, Toyo, and the rest of the staff currently working on DB.

We know, but unfortunately there are fans who are not only blind to this fact, but go as far as saying there's no difference between it and the original run.

[SupremeKai25]

"When you listen to fans, you'll eventually be sitting next to them". This was said by a football coach, and he couldn't have been more right.

Melodramatic, much? A little fan-service never hurt anybody.

[Matches Malone]

A little fan-service never hurt anybody.

It takes away from original ideas.

I do enjoy Super well enough, but it's not a series I would recommend to someone who hasn't already been through and enjoyed DB.

Even that's a stretch for me. If anyone's seen the original run, I'd only recommend the BOG movie before telling them to move onto other anime.

[SupremeKai25]

A little fan-service never hurt anybody.

It takes away from original ideas.

I do enjoy Super well enough, but it's not a series I would recommend to someone who hasn't already been through and enjoyed DB.

Even that's a stretch for me. If anyone's seen the original run, I'd only recommend the BOG movie before telling them to move onto other anime.

Ah yes, because fiction needs original ideas to be entertaining and enjoyable.

[Matches Malone]

Ah yes, because fiction needs original ideas to be entertaining and enjoyable.

If all I'm going to get is fan service I might as well just watch the original material they're basing it off of.

[Cipher]

Even that's a stretch for me. If anyone's seen the original run, I'd only recommend the BOG movie before telling them to move onto other anime.

I suppose there's opportunity cost, but Super (movies and manga) is never so dire in my book that it hurts the original by existing. If you're enjoying it enough to want to see a sequel that works in slightly different ways, Super has enough going for it to recommend (in my book) on those terms.

'Tis a sequel; nothing mandatory, but that's also not an inherent sleight.

[SupremeKai25]

Ah yes, because fiction needs original ideas to be entertaining and enjoyable.

If all I'm going to get is fan service I might as well just watch the original material they're basing it off of.

I'm not saying doing ONLY fan-service is alright, but there's nothing wrong with doing fan-service once in a while, especially if it's well-written or just very fitting thematically.

I hope this doesn't have to be reminded, but Super doesn't do ONLY fan-service. It would be a grave mistake to claim that. Super has created tons of original characters that have become very iconic. Some are beloved, others are controversial (probably because the writers didn't want to cave into fans' demands), regardless they are new unique characters.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Did franchises like DB get the kind of high quality merchandise it and others get now ?

Quality is debatable, but there was certainly no shortage of Dragon Ball merchandise back then, and according to FUNImation the Dragon Ball franchise had generated $5 billion in merchandise sales world wide by 2011. Super began in 2015 and according to Bandai's financial reports the franchise has generated $3.9 billion in merch sales during it's run, that's almost as much as the Dragon Ball franchises entire run up to 2011 in a small fraction of the time.

[Matches Malone]

Quality is debatable, but there was certainly no shortage of Dragon Ball merchandise back then, and according to FUNImation the Dragon Ball franchise had generated $5 billion in merchandise sales world wide by 2011. Super began in 2015 and according to Bandai's financial reports the franchise has generated $3.9 billion in merch sales during it's run, that's almost as much as the Dragon Ball franchises entire run up to 2011 in a small fraction of the time.

You have to keep in mind that back in the day there weren't high quality, million units selling video games like there are now, which play a big role in those numbers. Do we know if fans got the kind of high quality figures we get now ? Home video products also didn't exist back then.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Quality is debatable, but there was certainly no shortage of Dragon Ball merchandise back then, and according to FUNImation the Dragon Ball franchise had generated $5 billion in merchandise sales world wide by 2011. Super began in 2015 and according to Bandai's financial reports the franchise has generated $3.9 billion in merch sales during it's run, that's almost as much as the Dragon Ball franchises entire run up to 2011 in a small fraction of the time.

You have to keep in mind that back in the day there weren't high quality, million units selling video games like there are now, which play a big role in those numbers.

There were plenty of Dragon Ball video games back then both for home console and the arcade. They made toys, figures, clothing, posters, school supplies, candy, trading cards, drinks, towels, even Dragon Ball eye drops. They literally slapped the Dragon Ball logo and characters on just about everything they could.

Do we know if fans got the kind of high quality figures we get now ?

They didn't look like the figures banpresto has been making for their ichiban kuji lottery, but there were plenty of figures and toys being made.

Home video products also didn't exist back then.

The TV series didn't get a home release in 80s/90s, but the movies were released on VHS and Laserdisc.

[Matches Malone]

There were plenty of Dragon Ball video games back then both for home console and the arcade.

I know, but games where nowhere near as big and profitable as they are now.

[DBNamek]

Speaking about quality, with DB and Z, it was innovative and fresh for its time. It created many of the shonen tropes that would be used for future series. DB/Z is a product from the 80's and 90's, but it totally it in those decades.

With Super, it's not the worst thing ever. But it's also not really great either. For DBS, but people will compare it to DB/Z and other shonen series. and I'm gonna be honest, super isn't all that great, compared to other series.

DBZ started the trend of forms and power escalating, but super only increased the scale and then some. Side characters got bad treatment of the course of Z, but Super made them even more irrelevant with a few exceptions (Roshi the best example). Krillin, Tien, and Gohan are examples of characters trashed on more so in super than in z.

Compare DBS to other shonen series of the past 25 or so years, One Piece, Full Metal Alchemist, Death Note, HxH, Naruto (before the war arc and all the alien bullshit), Attack on Titan, YYH, Gintama etc .FWIW, I have not seen ever show/read every manga, but can you argue DBS is really better than any of these series? In my honest opinion, no, it's not.

Think about this, imagine super started today in weekly shonen jump, but it didn't have the connection with dragon ball at all, it's a completely different series altogether. Yet the quality of this new startup series is the same as super, I say 9/10 it will get axed from jump. Fact is super has name recognition and brand power, so it can get away with lot's of bullshit.

hell, Kishimoto, the guy who made naruto, had a new series call samurai 8, and you know what happened? It got cancelled after 40 chapters.

just my 2 cents.

edit: I will say Super does have its fair share of quality product. The 1 hour special, episode 130 and 131, and the broly movie.

[UpFromTheSkies]

There were plenty of Dragon Ball video games back then both for home console and the arcade.

I know, but games where nowhere near as big and profitable as they are now.

I don't have sales number for the video games specifically, but I know there were plenty of them and they were popular among fans, even the bad ones.