I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[The Undying]

I dunno, he exhibits basically the same behaviour in the anime, really.

The lack of consistency is where I take issue.

Freeza's a sneaky, contemptible bastard, not an anti-hero. I don't personally care for his tsundere quips in the anime, or seeing him partake in a bunch of epic frienemy team efforts against Dyspo/Jiren while triumphant music blares in the background. This is a character that routinely tortures people, commits mass-genocide like it's Tuesday, actively refrains from direct conflict unless he's forced to do so (or is chasing an obsession), and generally spends far more of his time concocting evil schemes or being a narcissistic piece of shit than actually fighting.

Him being so despicable is what makes him distinct and compelling. If anyone in Dragon Ball has no redeeming qualities, it's Freeza, but I don't think the TV series construed that behavior particularly well.

[LoganForkHands73]

I dunno, he exhibits basically the same behaviour in the anime, really.

The lack of consistency is where I take issue.

Freeza's a sneaky, contemptible bastard, not an anti-hero. I don't personally care for his tsundere quips in the anime, or seeing him partake in a bunch of epic frienemy team efforts against Dyspo/Jiren while triumphant music blares in the background. This is a character that routinely tortures people, commits mass-genocide like it's Tuesday, actively refrains from direct conflict unless he's forced to do so (or is chasing an obsession), and generally spends far more of his time concocting evil schemes or being a narcissistic piece of shit than actually fighting.

Him being so despicable is what makes him distinct and compelling. If anyone in Dragon Ball has no redeeming qualities, it's Freeza, but I don't think the TV series construed that behavior particularly well.

I disagree but fair enough. I don't personally see Anime Freeza as any more of an anti-hero than his manga counterpart, just a 'boxed crook' and no less despicable in his actions. He still does awful things in both versions. As far as tsundere quips go, yeah I see your point, but I think he got some good'uns -- his whole obsession with settling his unwanted debts with Goku to soothe his own wounded pride was quite compelling. I don't think that necessarily undermines Freeza's brand of villainy, just gives a different insight into it.

[UI Peter]

Yeah, count me in the same boat.

The manga (and films, for that matter) has Freeza doing things truer to his character - blindsiding foes (like with Frost in the anime?, getting humiliated in direct brawls that he unwittingly sows the seeds for like with GoD Toppo and Full Power Jiren lol?, being a cruel opportunist (like with every choice he makes in the anime, behaving like an actual villain. The list goes on and on.

The guy's a murderous, underhanded sociopath through and through, and by the end, they win thanks to a sneak attack that speaks to the sheer antithesis between Freeza's approach and Goku's. The story understood his role and distinguished it from the rest.

I can't get down with all the forced melodrama and "badass" cooperative moments they give him in the anime. That's just a caricature of Freeza.

Seriously, you sound like a biased one sided manga fanboy, because there's objectively no real difference in morality between Freeza in the ToP anime and manga (other than Freeza being dumber in the manga version with dumb acts like ringing out his own teammates smh).

Freeza teaming up with Goku & 17 in the episode 131 is better written and portrayed than any unique thing he does in the ToP manga. He's an opportunist (and not stupid), so he's willing to do anything that serves his interests, including working with enemies.

[UI Peter]

I dunno, he exhibits basically the same behaviour in the anime, really.

The lack of consistency is where I take issue.

Freeza's a sneaky, contemptible bastard, not an anti-hero. I don't personally care for his tsundere quips in the anime, or seeing him partake in a bunch of epic frienemy team efforts against Dyspo/Jiren while triumphant music blares in the background. This is a character that routinely tortures people, commits mass-genocide like it's Tuesday, actively refrains from direct conflict unless he's forced to do so (or is chasing an obsession), and generally spends far more of his time concocting evil schemes or being a narcissistic piece of shit than actually fighting.

Him being so despicable is what makes him distinct and compelling. If anyone in Dragon Ball has no redeeming qualities, it's Freeza, but I don't think the TV series construed that behavior particularly well.

The only thing inconsistent here is your argument.

Nowhere in the anime version is Freeza ever shown to be anti-hero like or redeemable. You post sounds like you a just digging for things to make the manga look better without making any logical sense.

Making smart choices for your benefit isn't being redeemable. Even the biggest psychopaths in the world would agree to act altruistic if it suits there goals.

[UI Peter]

When DBS works, and this on very rare occassions, it can be dumb, trashy fun. Where you can be thrilled about watching a modern DB show.

Like the episode where Goku recruits Freeza. I hated what it represented, but in execution I was surprised at how much fun it was to watch two people who clearly hate each other bounce off each other.


But also, yeah, really hated the tendency of some Super fans to drag down Z just to prop up Super.

Super had a lot of potential, as BOG kicked the door of possibilities way open, the problem is that they never lived up to it. Freeza's role in the TOP was a highlight for sure, as you never knew what he was thinking and what he was capable of.

Personally I found Freeza in the TOP a disappointment but I know I am in the minority. His personality was fun and I always love Ryūsei Nakao‘a performance but he was just kind of there until the end where he got that team up with Goku

In the anime they kept playing up “will he betray his team” but it got old for me pretty quickly and he never even had an opportunity where betraying U7 would benefit him in anyway . It would have been more interesting if there was.


Overall I actually liked Freeza’s role in the manga a bit more. Him planning something with Android 17 who he had no history with just worked better for me than the Heroic music playing as him and Goku “teamed up”. I don’t really like Freeza in the anti hero role.

There's nothing anti-hero like about Freeza in the anime. Teaming up with your teammates to pursue your goal in thw most possible way is being smart. Just because someone does something altruistic doesn't mean there being a good person.

[Kinokima]

There's nothing anti-hero like about Freeza in the anime. Teaming up with your teammates to pursue your goal in thw most possible way is being smart. Just because someone does something altruistic doesn't mean there being a good person.

Your description is exactly what an anti hero is

[Psajdak]

I am glad that DBS anime happened.

[SupremeKai25]

Regarding Frieza, he's not a favourite of mine, but I always found it sad how DBZ turned him into a joke after the Namek arc. I mean, he came back as Mecha Frieza and was fodderized by Trunks, then again in a movie (I believe it was the Janemba one?) he got oneshot by Gohan. Super, in particular the ToP arc, put some respect back on his name. The character of Frieza was one of the most intriguing parts of the ToP arc because, while he was on the U7 team, he was also very self-serving and conniving. Many were speculating that he'd turn on his teammates at the end to get the Super Dragon Balls for himself, and obviously there was the whole plotline about him seeking to dethrone the Gods (a plotline which seems to have been dropped, as per the recent Broly movie). For these aforementioned reasons, I appreciated the role Frieza played in the ToP arc, even if it was his 3th (?) return.

[kemuri07]

I dunno, he exhibits basically the same behaviour in the anime, really.

The lack of consistency is where I take issue.

Freeza's a sneaky, contemptible bastard, not an anti-hero. I don't personally care for his tsundere quips in the anime, or seeing him partake in a bunch of epic frienemy team efforts against Dyspo/Jiren while triumphant music blares in the background. This is a character that routinely tortures people, commits mass-genocide like it's Tuesday, actively refrains from direct conflict unless he's forced to do so (or is chasing an obsession), and generally spends far more of his time concocting evil schemes or being a narcissistic piece of shit than actually fighting.

Him being so despicable is what makes him distinct and compelling. If anyone in Dragon Ball has no redeeming qualities, it's Freeza, but I don't think the TV series construed that behavior particularly well.

The only thing inconsistent here is your argument.

Nowhere in the anime version is Freeza ever shown to be anti-hero like or redeemable. You post sounds like you a just digging for things to make the manga look better without making any logical sense.

Making smart choices for your benefit isn't being redeemable. Even the biggest psychopaths in the world would agree to act altruistic if it suits there goals.

*looks at the current Republican party*

sure.

[JewyB]

But also, yeah, really hated the tendency of some Super fans to drag down Z just to prop up Super.

I agree with this, but whats more obvious is fans tendency to elevate Z to being above criticism to shit all over Super. The dragging down of Z to prop up Super is more in response in my opinion, and i think its justified to drag something down of a pedestal made of nostalgia for an objective look, as opposed to create an unreasonable standard for Super based on something Z never achieved itself.

Not saying either is a better series or arguing either way, but i think judging them compared to each other is dumb anyways and we should judge them alone, by their own merits and faults, which both have.

[The Undying]

Seriously, you sound like a biased one sided manga fanboy

Not at all surprised that you'd immediately hurl insults (as you've been doing throughout this thread you've created) in lieu of engaging in good faith.

Sadala Elite did the same thing before he was banned, and before you registered. I found it curious that your posting styles, spelling/grammatical errors and thread activities were identical, so I looked up your post histories and, surely enough, found identical posts as well.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.

[kemuri07]

But also, yeah, really hated the tendency of some Super fans to drag down Z just to prop up Super.

I agree with this, but whats more obvious is fans tendency to elevate Z to being above criticism to shit all over Super. The dragging down of Z to prop up Super is more in response in my opinion, and i think its justified to drag something down of a pedestal made of nostalgia for an objective look, as opposed to create an unreasonable standard for Super based on something Z never achieved itself.

Not saying either is a better series or arguing either way, but i think judging them compared to each other is dumb anyways and we should judge them alone, by their own merits and faults, which both have.

I'm well aware of the flaws that DBZ has--it's just DBZ is an anime from 1989. Super started in 2015. These shows don't just exist in a vacuum; other anime has premiered between the time that Z ended and Super began. And when you got shows like Hunter X Hunter 2011, which I personally believe to be one of the best shonen anime I've seen in the past decade, it makes Super's flaws much more inexcusable. Also...yes I absolutely believe that DBZ is a much better show than Super despite its own problems.

[JewyB]

I'm well aware of the flaws that DBZ has--it's just DBZ is an anime from 1989. Super started in 2015. These shows don't just exist in a vacuum; other anime has premiered between the time that Z ended and Super began. And when you got shows like Hunter X Hunter 2011, which I personally believe to be one of the best shonen anime I've seen in the past decade, it makes Super's flaws much more inexcusable. Also...yes I absolutely believe that DBZ is a much better show than Super despite its own problems.

I dont think its fair to judge Super comparatively to Z or other anime if I'm being honest. Most anime are seasonal and are based off of a pre-existing work, so was Z. Super was an entirely new(rushed) production. There's actually very little it's easy to compare it too, its why i think it just be judges as its own thing. Yes it has flaws, but it isn't 100% flaws.

I also don't believe Z or Super are better, i think they're too different. They may have the same characters but everything about them is different, like you say, one is from 1989. They don't exist in a vacuum, no, but judging the quality of Mr Men books because Berserk exists is a really shitty way of objectively judging something. (Hunter X Hunter is also not a fair comparison imo, one is a show that is being rushed into production every week, the other is based on a manga where the mangaka takes months at a time to release a chapter(because reasons(health/laziness/whatever))).

The main problem is its all opinion based anyways, anyone can make as many "objective" arguements as they want but if 6 year old Tomym over here thinks Suepr is better than Z, it is in his world and that's fine.

[precita]

Had Super skipped the movie adaptions, and had good animation from the start instead of how bad early Super looked, a lot of the early criticism would be gone. There'd still be the problem of shafting characters for too much Goku/Vegeta, or the various power level inconsistencies or things like that which don't make sense, but eh

[Matches Malone]

I don't think its fair to judge Super comparatively to Z or other anime if I'm being honest. Most anime are seasonal and are based off of a pre existing work, so was Z. Super was an entirely new(rushed) production. There's actually very little it's easy to compare it too, its why i think it just be judges as its own thing. Yes it has flaws, but it isn't 100% flaws.

If it's an anime, a Shonen, and DB, then it's fair to compare it to similar anime. It being rushed or not based on a manga shouldn't prevent us from doing so. I highly doubt you'd be saying this if Super turned out good. I do agree that it's not 100%, but its flaws unfortunately outweigh its positives. I'm not saying this to hate on Super, in fact no one's more disappointed in how it turned out than I am, simply because I hold this franchise to a very high standard. Does this mean the original run was perfect ? far from it, but not only did Super make the same mistakes, it brought new ones to the table as well. If Super return to television, no one will be cheering it on more than me. I want it to stand alongside other high quality anime, and I know it has the potential to do so.

Had Super skipped the movie adaptions, and had good animation from the start instead of how bad early Super looked, a lot of the early criticism would be gone. There'd still be the problem of shafting characters for too much Goku/Vegeta, or the various power level inconsistencies or things like that which don't make sense, but eh

The biggest issue I have with it is that is spent nearly 85% of its episodes (110) on retellings, filler, and tournaments.

[kemuri07]

I bring up Hunter x Hunter a lot because I think that show is a prime example of modern sensibilities that people expect in their shounen now. I don't have the time or energy to watch a show spin its wheels for three episodes: Give me the good shit, and give me the good shit now. Super did that a lot; even when it got "better," the pacing of the show was just god awful. You have a problem when the main momentum of your story arc is: "when will Goku turn into white-haired jesus mode?"

I'm down on Super, not only because I expect more because I have expectations for the franchise, but I have expectations for anime in general--and Super barely met them.

[Matches Malone]

I bring up Hunter x Hunter a lot because I think that show is a prime example of modern sensibilities that people expect in their shounen now.

I don't have the time or energy to watch a show spin its wheels for three episodes: Give me the good shit, and give me the good shit now. Super did that a lot; even when it got "better," the pacing of the show was just god awful.

You have a problem when the main momentum of your story arc is: "when will Goku turn into white-haired jesus mode?"

It's worth mentioning that HXH is almost 10 years old, so surely expecting Super to be as good as a decade old show isn't too much to ask for is it ?

Super pretty much spinned its wheels for 46 episodes before getting to the Black arc, and for a 131 episode show to just have one decent 21 episode arc is nothing short of sad.

It didn't help that the arc was 55 episodes long, which is 10 episodes short of the entirety of GT. Why not cut that arc in half and use the remaining episodes for something else ? It didn't need to be anywhere near that long.

[JewyB]

I bring up Hunter x Hunter a lot because I think that show is a prime example of modern sensibilities that people expect in their shounen now. I don't have the time or energy to watch a show spin its wheels for three episodes: Give me the good shit, and give me the good shit now. Super did that a lot; even when it got "better," the pacing of the show was just god awful. You have a problem when the main momentum of your story arc is: "when will Goku turn into white-haired jesus mode?"

I'm down on Super, not only because I expect more because I have expectations for the franchise, but I have expectations for anime in general--and Super barely met them.

This is a very cherry picked view of Hunter x Hunter. Read the Dark Continent arc and hold the same opinion and i'll be impressed, that's when the manga turned into a book(like, literally) and spent 50 chapters explaining nen, 5 arcs after we had already had it explained in-depth.

This kind of clarifies my point though, Hunter X Hunter is jsut as flawed as Super, the only difference is, Super is a sequel so people hold it to unnecessarily high standards. If yo uwant to be realistic compare it to all shonens and realise Super isn't actually that bad, Sure its animation sucks in places and the Zamasu arc ending was balls, but generally speaking it was a solid shonene series.

Was it top tier? No. Doest that make it bad? Sure if you consider any person shorter than 8' 11 short, because thats how tall the tallest man ever was and that's the kind of logic of holding Suepr t the same standards as the most well-received animes in history. It would be much fairer to compare it to relatively average anime and say where is succeeds and fails in comparison to them.

If it's an anime, a Shonen, and DB, then it's fair to compare it to similar anime. It being rushed or not based on a manga shouldn't prevent us from doing so. I highly doubt you'd be saying this if Super turned out good. I do agree that it's not 100%, but its flaws unfortunately outweigh its positives. I'm not saying this to hate on Super, in fact no one's more disappointed in how it turned out than I am, simply because I hold this franchise to a very high standard. Does this mean the original run was perfect ? far from it, but not only did Super make the same mistakes, it brought new ones to the table as well. If Super return to television, no one will be cheering it on more than me. I want it to stand alongside other high quality anime, and I know it has the potential to do so.

This argument would hold weight if, in tha same comment, i didnt point out that Berserk, a vastly superior piece to many things, shouldn't be judged comparitively to worse pieces. So yes i would say the same thing "if super was good"(Which btw is a forced opinion, i think super is good, so yes, i said the same thing "if super was good").

[JulieYBM]

Hunter x Hunter's comic is being created by a disabled person who suffers from extreme chronic pain, hardly a fair assessment to make when the poor motherfucker is probably regularly shitting his underwear because he can't move. I feel like it's just plain ableist to be critical of Togashi-sensei all things considered.

[JewyB]

Hunter x Hunter's comic is being created by a disabled person who suffers from extreme chronic pain, hardly a fair assessment to make when the poor motherfucker is probably regularly shitting his underwear because he can't move. I feel like it's just plain ableist to be critical of Togashi-sensei all things considered.

So disabled people can't have their work judged critically? That deems a bit exclusive. He also isnt severely disabled as far as i'm aware, he suffers from back pain as a result of his career, something common in mangaka(Hell, the World Trigger artist took two years off for the same thing), and prior to that he was also well known for taking breaks due to laziness.

It would be like if we suddenly found out that Toriyama had one leg, would it suddenly devalue any criticism of his work and place him above any criticism because he's now disabled? Or should we judge their work in the same way we would anyone elses because thats the equal way to do it?

He writes and draws. We can judge his storytelling ability regardless of the mans ability to stand up, in the same way JK Rowling is perfectly physically abled, but her storytelling ability sucks. To comment on his art may be unfair, but he's an artist, its to be expected, to leave him out of valid criticism because he's disabled? Oof.

EDIT: To clarify a little further, I'm disabled, and my goal is to work in comics, so i'm speaking a little personally, but i'd hate to be left out of a discussion/treated differently in a field I'm a huge part of because of my disability.