So what's Toriyama up to then?

[Xeno Goku Black]

From what I know he was much more heavily involved with the previous arcs in Super like with the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs. Then with the Universe Survival arc, he did some of the main character designs but also split some with Toyotaro and the arc itself probably didn't take as much work as most of it was just a simple battle royale.

Which I figured he probably had a lesser involvement in or just made that way because he was busy writing the script for the Broly movie and doing those character designs.

Then with this Galactic Patrol arc isn't most of this all Toyotaro's idea? Isn't he the one who designed Moro and Merus? Aside from overlooking things I'm not sure what Toriyama has really done for this one. It seems less than the others anyway.

So is there a reason for him not being as active with the current arc? Has Toyotaro been mainly responsible for this arc because Toriyama is writing another movie perhaps? Because I recall something being mentioned about their being more of them and Broly is almost two years old.

Or is he just working on the next arc perhaps and Toyotaro worked on the current one to give time for Toriyama to come up with a story?

Or is he purposefully fazing himself out so that Toyotaro can take over fully?

[Matches Malone]

Is he purposefully fazing himself out so that Toyotaro can take over fully?

I think this is very likely.

[Trouser]

Is he purposefully fazing himself out so that Toyotaro can take over fully?

I think this is very likely.

And soon, we're going to get discussions about Super which will end with something like this "Super after (put here last arc of Toriyama's involvement) is not canon". I can't wait for this actually, it's going to be hilarious.

The thing with Toyotarou becoming "the boss" was foreshadowed earlier and after his ToP and Moro arcs I don't know if it's a good choice.

[Matches Malone]

And soon, we're going to get discussions about Super which will end with something like this "Super after (put here last arc of Toriyama's involvement) is not canon". I can't wait for this actually, it's going to be hilarious.

The thing with Toyotarou becoming "the boss" was foreshadowed earlier and after his ToP and Moro arcs I don't know if it's a good choice.

Toyotaro has been making major decisions as far back as the Champa arc, so technically speaking, everything after RF isn't canon according to this argument.

I'm going to reserve judgement until the current arc is over, as I'm hoping he can make up for this month's...questionable chapter.

[precita]

The day Toriyama stops coming up with new story ideas, Dragonball should end again. Or else we'll veer into GT and fanfiction territory again. As seen with the Moro arc we're already seeing signs of this now, I don't want to imagine what it's like if we have 2-4 more arcs without heavy Toriyama input.

Goku has pretty much reached the pinnacle of strength, any other power up after Ultra Instinct would just be absurd. Just give us a friendly Goku/Beerus rematch to bring modern Dragonball full circle and call it a day.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The day Toriyama stops coming up with new story ideas, Dragonball should end again. Or else we'll veer into GT and fanfiction territory again. As seen with the Moro arc we're already seeing signs of this now, I don't want to imagine what it's like if we have 2-4 more arcs without heavy Toriyama input.

What do you mean now? Toriyama has hardly come up with any new story ideas since 2013.

Resurrection F wasn't much a new idea. Universe 6 arc wasn't much of a new idea that any regular fan couldn't have come up with. The Future Trunks arc was half a retread of the Androids arc. The Universe Survival arc was just another tournament featuring different universes. Broly was half a retread of the old movie.

[precita]

They may not be entirely original concepts, sure, but they were still new story ideas handled differently than any previous Dragonball saga did. The Zamasu arc is basically an arc about an evil Kai, we've never had something like that before for example.

Also people forget how few tournaments there were in DBZ. I'm not even sure if you can count the Cell games since it wasn't even much of a tournament since the ring was blown up so quickly and only Goku/Gohan really entered. Other than the tournament in the early Boo saga which again was cut short and then played for laughs with 18/Satan, there was no real tournament compared to the ones in Super unless you count the Pikkon Otherworld tournament.

[Matches Malone]

The Zamasu arc is basically an arc about an evil Kai, we've never had something like that before for example.

Wasn't there an evil Kai in AF ? Evil Goku is as fan fiction as you can get. The concept of Trunks going back in the past for help is basically what he did in the Cell arc. Vegetto was included to make the fans happy (according to Toyotaro). Taking these into account, the Zamasu arc isn't very original.

[TheNingen]

The Zamasu arc is basically an arc about an evil Kai, we've never had something like that before for example.

Wasn't there an evil Kai in AF ? Evil Goku is as fan fiction as you can get. The concept of Trunks going back in the past for help is basically what he did in the Cell arc. Vegetto was included to make the fans happy (according to Toyotaro). Taking these into account, the Zamasu arc isn't very original.

Nothing is original. Everything is based on a pre-existing idea or notion. In Canon proper, there has not been an evil Kai and the execution of an 'Evil Goku' was done excellently. Also, you're diluting the circumstances and just saying "Trunks comes back in the Cell arc" ignoring the notion that never once have the heroes actually ever traveled to the future before this point. As for Vegetto, this was his first return since Buu Saga.

Fans of Dragon Ball need to stop using basic umbrella statements for their arguments and removing the context of things and especially being using excessive exaggeration with their arguments. We can peel back nearly every anime using blanket umbrella arguments and come up with reasons why it isn't original. It's 2020. Nearly/Every story idea that can be done has been exhausted. It's about how it's executed. And the Trunks arc was more or less solid except for the 3 trips back and forth, the ending, and Trunks' himself and his power ups.

[SupremeKai25]

If fans were writing Dragon Ball Super, Goku Black would've been an actual evil version of Goku who never hit his head and was somehow manipulated by Zamasu.

Which sounds... fine... I guess. But I vastly prefer the version the writers ended up going with, which is more original. I love the idea of a rogue, body-stealing Kai. Despite his common background with Immortal Zamasu, Black manages to remain unique by virtue of the fact that the Saiyan desire for battle and strength starts to overcome his Kai mind. That makes him infinitely more unique than the generic "Evil Goku who never hit his head" fan concept.

[precita]

I'm also a little surprised when people say Evil Goku is a concept done before (I guess comparing him to Turles from Movie 3), but don't make the connection of Ginyu's body swap with Goku in the Namek saga instead.

For the most part Goku Black is what Captain Ginyu wanted to be, but nobody ever brings that up.

[Matches Malone]

I'm also a little surprised when people say Evil Goku is a concept done before (I guess comparing him to Turles from Movie 3), but don't make the connection of Ginyu's body swap with Goku in the Namek saga instead.

For the most part Goku Black is what Captain Ginyu wanted to be, but nobody ever brings that up.

There's that to, I do agree it's not brought up as much.

[JewyB]

People: Dragon Ball Super has nothing new or original!

Dragon Ball Super:

[Lionel]

Has Toyotaro not legitimised himself as an "authentic" writer of Dragon Ball in the eyes of fans? Personally, I remain sceptical about his individual capabilities without Toriyama guiding his pen but I can appreciate the gravity of the role he's assumed with so many people looking to him to live up to the standards of his predecessor. Toriyama isn't getting any younger and I can't imagine him being so inclined as to do Dragon Ball for the rest of his life. Honestly, I'm surprised he's doing so right now. I've oftentimes wondered if this continued involvement in a series he completed over 20 years ago is what he truly wanted or if he's been compelled to do so.

I'm certainly not the most informed viewer but those are just my thoughts.

[precita]

Toyotaro is still just a glorified fanfiction writer/artist who is now doing official work.

The best western comparison to him is people who drew art on deviantart for 15 years and wrote fanfics on fanfiction.net...and then they got hired to do official material. He's still a fan-artist when all is said and done, he's not a "professional" like Toriyama was in his prime in the 80's/90's.

[JewyB]

Toyotaro is still just a glorified fanfiction writer/artist who is now doing official work.

The best western comparison to him is people who drew art on deviantart for 15 years and wrote fanfics on fanfiction.net...and then they got hired to do official material. He's still a fan-artist when all is said and done, he's not a "professional" like Toriyama was in his prime in the 80's/90's.

I dont know if you know this, but that tends to be a path a lot of artists follow, working on things they enjoy with the end goal of hopefully working on that product or a similar product, Toy just hit the jackpot. Where he started doesnt illegitimise him as an author or an artist and acting like it does is just kinda rude to be honest.

But, Toyo is currently being paid to produce content, that would strictly, by definition, make him a professional. It would be like saying DBZ is a gag manga because Toriyama did gag manga initially and people arent capable of professional growth or change.

Or y'know, Fight Club and Seven were good movies but Brad Pitt will only ever be a pringles advertiser when all is said and done.

[Matches Malone]

I've oftentimes wondered if this continued involvement in a series he completed over 20 years ago is what he truly wanted or if he's been compelled to do so.

He definitely wanted to be involved with the BOG movie, as he wanted to prove a point to the Fox executives that he still had it in him, as they more or less told him to piss off when he tried to help with Evolution.

This is what he said about BOG: "This was the first time that I participated in creating the story for a theatrical Dragon Ball anime. But that isn’t to say that I was requested to participate; rather, while I thought the concepts in the story I received were good, the contents were a bit dark, and in the midst of making partial changes, I got carried away, and ended up making it into an almost completely different story. That’s the correct way to put it. Since the creator was the one making the changes, I suppose I may have caused a lot of trouble for the production side of things. For the scriptwriter in particular, it can’t have been pleasant". There's also this: "while I had intended just to give them a model―”for example”―my hand wouldn’t stop, and ultimately, I ended up writing almost everything, including the dialogue. I am reflecting on the fact that I did something terribly rude to the scriptwriter". When you look at his post manga works as a whole, you can tell BOG was the one he was most invested in. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only story that truly feels like it belongs in the original manga.

Following BOG though, I think his involvement is less about telling new stories himself and rather helping others tell their stories. I definitely think he wants to make sure DB's image is never dragged through the mud again, so he probably won't fully step down until he's 100% sure it's in good hands. For the time being, I think Toyotaro will continue to push things forward with Toriyama supervising him.

[Cipher]

Toyotaro is still just a glorified fanfiction writer/artist who is now doing official work.

The best western comparison to him is people who drew art on deviantart for 15 years and wrote fanfics on fanfiction.net...and then they got hired to do official material. He's still a fan-artist when all is said and done, he's not a "professional" like Toriyama was in his prime in the 80's/90's.

This is a really problematic viewpoint.

Many, many artists and writers who go on to do professional work will have done derivative fan works beforehand, both for practice and passion. The argument seemingly being made here is that anyone who does can never be a legitimate professional. A writer of Batman comics should only be someone who has never read/enjoyed Batman before or thought of their own stories before pitching. Where are these untainted creatives to come from?

The other side to this that I find hard to gel with is the idea that something like a continuation should only be given specifically to people who are not fans, or have no prior passion for the material. It’s a strange train of thought to me that a lack of prior interest or passion in the material is somehow more legitimizing, or bound to produce better work. It’ll just produce work without that specific avenue for attack. Plus, is it more legitimizing the less they like the original work? Should they hate it?

In any case, while Toyotarō’s background of doing exclusively Dragon Ball derivative work has limited him artistically, he’s been a professional manga artist ever since he pitched Victory Mission and was given the series. At this point he’s been doing 40+ pages a month for years, which is no joke, and even though he’s no Toriyama or (insert weekly Jump artist here), he’s hardly bottom tier artistically/craft-wise in the grand scheme of published manga in Japan.

[UpFromTheSkies]

From interviews we know Toriyama works with Toyotaro to come up with the story, then all of Toyotaros drafts are sent to Toriyama for approval and he makes revisions where he sees fit, but how much revising he does and how much of the story is his original idea no one knows. I'd imagine Toriyama does want to prepare Toyotaro to completely take over eventually since he won't be around forever, but from what I've seen mentioned in interviews, Toriyama enjoys being able to work on story ideas without having to draw everything, so I don't think he's planning to retire anytime soon.

[Lionel]

I've oftentimes wondered if this continued involvement in a series he completed over 20 years ago is what he truly wanted or if he's been compelled to do so.

He definitely wanted to be involved with the BOG movie, as he wanted to prove a point to the Fox executives that he still had it in him, as they more or less told him to piss off when he tried to help with Evolution.

This is what he said about BOG: "This was the first time that I participated in creating the story for a theatrical Dragon Ball anime. But that isn’t to say that I was requested to participate; rather, while I thought the concepts in the story I received were good, the contents were a bit dark, and in the midst of making partial changes, I got carried away, and ended up making it into an almost completely different story. That’s the correct way to put it. Since the creator was the one making the changes, I suppose I may have caused a lot of trouble for the production side of things. For the scriptwriter in particular, it can’t have been pleasant". There's also this: "while I had intended just to give them a model―”for example”―my hand wouldn’t stop, and ultimately, I ended up writing almost everything, including the dialogue. I am reflecting on the fact that I did something terribly rude to the scriptwriter". When you look at his post manga works as a whole, you can tell BOG was the one he was most invested in. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only story that truly feels like it belongs in the original manga.

Following BOG though, I think his involvement is less about telling new stories himself and rather helping others tell their stories. I definitely think he wants to make sure DB's image is never dragged through the mud again, so he probably won't fully step down until he's 100% sure it's in good hands. For the time being, I think Toyotaro will continue to push things forward with Toriyama supervising him.

You have to wonder how he must have felt about GT back in the 90s. I appreciate the thorough answer by the way. Thank you.

With all of the embellishments and creative liberties made by Toei for the Super anime compared to the manga script it also begs the question on Toriyama's thoughts for all of these scenes in the anime. For example, is he accepting of the Spirit Sword scene or the Copy Vegeta arc?