Thoughts on Moro's character?

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Kinokima
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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:06 pm

Lord Frieza wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:22 pm The biggest flaw with Moro for me. is the lack of commitment to what the original idea behind him was.

They wanted a villain who would test the heroes in a different way then past enemies. One who fights Goku in a way no others had and Goku was ill-equipped to do so. Now at the start of this arc, thats what they do, as Moro proves to be more of a danger due to his powers and his planning , rather then just strength. The problem is that the creators don't commit to this idea and quickly fall back into tired trops, and Moro becomes more generic because of this.

He starts letting people go more times then he should, eve after they prove to be a threat, and one he absorbed Seven-Three he just started acting like every other villain the series had had. What made him unique was gone and while Vegeta develops new powers better suited to besting Moro, these are almost instantly counteracted and were right back to tired trop of Goku Powering up to beat the villain, the villain pulls a desperate move out his ass to amp up the stakes and then Goku finds a way to win.

Now I do appreciate that Moro's defeat is multifaceted. He cannot control ultra instinct because his body is not adapted to how it works, and both Goku and Vegeta work together with their new abilites to pull the win, but its still done in a way thats very derivative of what came befor and a lot of idiot balls and get out of jail free cards have to be handed out to reach that point, which greatly cheapen the story .

As a result while Moro started with a lot of potential, he ends up becoming more and more generic as the plot unfolds simple by the unfortunate luck of being a Dragon Ball villain at a point when Dragon Ball can't or won't try anything new.
100% agree with all of these criticisms. I don’t think the Moro arc was bad. I even enjoyed the ending more so than most Super endings. But did Moro as a villain live up to his potential? Absolutely not!

And I agree they could have done something interesting than just another power up to defeat Moro. But instead they decided they already needed to bring back UI and have Goku Master it for some reason. Its like they didn’t trust the arc to do well without it.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:11 pm

I myself debated with The Undying and LoganForkHands73 over the extent to which Moro takes deliberate cues from elsewhere in Dragon Ball
Oh gawd, I've been summoned... :? Luckily, I don't have much more to say on that old chestnut :lol: Undying beat me to the punch on reiterating the point that it's ultimately all up to us on how we interpret or criticise a work, though I will add that I don't believe we necessarily need the artist's direct confirmation on their intentions in order to draw our own conclusions. Some more interviews from Toyo would certainly be nice, but it's not the be-all end-all final word. If we all solely went by the artist's declared intent, nobody would have any deeper analyses on Jaws because Steven Spielberg insists that it's "just about a shark". This isn't directed at anyone specifically, but more a troubling mentality I've seen on the wider forum.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, I was planning on making a post like this a long time ago. There's not much more to elaborate on Moro's overall usage throughout the arc that others haven't already commented on. Yes, he was often bland and uninspired. But, while many are understandably loath to acknowledge it considering the fact that it all came far, far too late, there were some nuggets of interest sprinkled towards the very end of the arc that gave some new context to Moro's personality, actions and thematic connection to the story.

Ponta has already brilliantly dissected the arc's most pertinent themes, such as 'stealing vs. giving' and so on. I think that Goku and Moro's intimate conversation in Chapter 65 is quite revealing. Mainly more on Goku's side, but Moro gets some tea as well. Here, we get the explicit confirmation that Moro, like Freeza, has never trained a day in his life. Unlike Freeza, he's gained such frightening power purely by stealing from others.

Ever since his design was revealed, there's been a certain expectation for Moro: that he should've been some kind of grand mage with a massive arsenal of unusual magical techniques. Naturally, many were disappointed when his main ability was shown to be energy absorption, a power that isn't exactly new, though is at least implemented in a new way. As we came to discover though, his passive energy drain technique may as well be the only technique that's natural to Moro. His most famous other technique, raising geysers of molten lava from a planet's crust, is specifically tied to this ingrained draining ability as he can only perform it on a planet he's in the process of draining. Everything else he demonstrates over the course of the arc is stolen -- nicked -- pilfered -- and otherwise dishonestly earned. And yet, amusingly, he has the sheer gall and lack of self-awareness to mock Vegeta's Big Bang Attack for its unoriginality, just as he's about to use it on Vegeta.

But that's Moro's character. He's a sponge, a consumer, a fraud. This 'training to get stronger' spiel is a foreign concept that disgusts him, as he derides it as being for the weak. Although there's not much in the way of personal conflict between our heroes and Moro, there is a clear ideological conflict. On paper, it's not an unfamiliar trope to Dragon Ball at all. Vegetto harshly criticised Majin Buu's hypocrisy when the latter tried to call the former a cheater for fusing, even though Buu had done nothing but absorb other people for the last several chapters. Only after all of Buu's acquisitions are removed does Goku display true respect for him as a martial artist. Baby in GT was a literal parasitic organism who stole Vegeta's body, while Zamasu stole Goku's body earlier in Super. In the wuxia-esque 'warrior's honour' system that defines Dragon Ball's setting, theft of someone else's power is like a cardinal sin, and it's a trend for most antagonists who commit this dishonour to turn out to be irredeemable. Think about it. Baby, Zamasu, Moro, Cell, Super Buu... all of them die without any chance of redemption. Meanwhile, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, the Androids, Beerus and even Freeza to an extent, all enemies who fight honourably and gain strength primarily off their own backs, and all of them have been given second chances in one way or another.

Just as how self-improvement is foreign to Moro, the idea of stealing to get ahead in life is equally alien to Goku. So to have a scene where Goku puts a thieving monster like Moro in a completely powerless position, sit down and actually talk to him in an attempt to understand him... that's almost unheard of, really. We see throughout the whole senzu experiment, from when Moro foolishly throws a punch only to shatter his fucking wrist on Goku's rock-hard abs, that there really is nothing deeper to Moro. He's just a bully who can only grow stronger by bringing others down, and melts when his power is removed. It's like a cruel joke -- yet another ultra strong guy with buckets of potential who squanders it by being a dickhead. Good cannot comprehend evil, indeed. It reminds me of the end of Fargo by the Coen Brothers...
This leads us to his final kleptomaniac act that leads directly to his downfall, his attempted theft of Ultra Instinct. Failing to understand that it's far more than a simple transformation that can be easily stolen, Moro's body collapses. I love this subversion. Ultra Instinct Moro was never going to work, because Moro isn't remotely interested in putting in the work and mental improvement that define Goku's journey to true strength. It hearkens back to Ginyu's attempted theft of Goku's body, only for him to be pitifully weak due to his inability to use it effectively without the decades of combat experience and ki control that Goku had earned himself. Ginyu was at least somewhat honourable in battle, which maybe serves as the reason why he was the only member of his team to survive beyond the arc.

But yeah, Moro mimicking past villains isn't inherently interesting, and as his own character, he fails to leave much of a lasting impression. However, those last few chapters partially helped to provide some depth worth discussing, for me anyway.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:32 am

He just reinforced my idea they just gave Toyotaro a playground, but "please don't mess things up".
Why?
They don't know what to do with animation. If they had to invest more cash in such narrative period, skip it or go by movies alone.
So yeah, do whatever, but inside a strict frame, so you don't force to animate it 'cause of major consequences.
As you can't touch the lore, change the lore and introduce new lore, you can only play with the same Lego.

Moro is a plot device to just show the same thing again, playing totally safe and nothing get messed up. For such secondary role you don't need a great indepth.

For the above reasons, I don't think Moro is a bad written character. He does serve the purpose of that context. PROBABLY is the context that doesn't work and make the thing boring.

What I totally hate is Moro GOT some narrative potential. There was some theme. And they scratched the surface of such themes. But they skipped it in favor of geometrical escalation, as pure DBZ, for the ending climax. Two years of escalation.

Moro is officially a "criminal". And nothing of it was indepth or considered as a plot point. Goku fought so far just authorities - Red Ribbon, space emperors, evil kings, self proclaimed gods... But never official criminals. He never worked inside a social frame.
There's a law system. Why there are criminals? Why someone end to be criminal?
Without such indepth, Moro is just an empty figure. If a social theme is introduced, you have to introduce it AND develop it.
Toyotaro tried a bit, but was forcily pushed back by the imposed boundaries. He cannot introduce new lore. New narrative ground. And so, Moro end to be a criminal villain ... because.

So, Moro is a good idea in the wrong production context.
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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:18 pm

We had several one dimensional 'i'm just evil'-type of villains in the past.
Toriyama however seemed to write and depict them as menacing in the original manga.
Moro came of as pretty menacing in the beginning, but he lacked that status in the latter part of the arc, apart from some 'better moments'.
An eater and consumer of so many worlds should at least always have that property.
Young goat Moro for example more came down like a Looney Tunes-villain to me, he did not feel like an universal threat at all.

If the Moro arc is adapted (let's think for a moment it eventually will), i hope this will be somehow improved and and made more consistent in the anime.
No, he does not need to become Zamasu 2. But adding a little more layer to his personality would be designated.
Something more about his background or motivation could help as well.
But most important will be the choice of the VA and how he is animated.
The end goal of his profile should at least feel more threatening in the animated version.
It could be idle hope, but it's a hope nontheless.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by batistabus » Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:27 pm

I think he's fine. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think we know much less about his "backstory" than most other villains of the series, and I don't think he's significantly less developed, either. Out of all Dragon Ball villains, Boo is probably the most interesting when it comes to characterization in his own arc. We've seen more shades of Freeza over the years, and he has a fantastic voice in Ryusei Nakao. I'm not counting reformed villains who become main characters in subsequent arcs.

He has a strong presence, a unique design, and cool abilities. He effectively drove the story and challenged Goku & co. If the Moro arc is animated, he'll have a cool voice, and I bet he'll be popular.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Cipher » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 am

batistabus wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:27 pm He has a strong presence, a unique design, and cool abilities. He effectively drove the story and challenged Goku & co. If the Moro arc is animated, he'll have a cool voice, and I bet he'll be popular.
Cell completely lives and dies on Norio Wakamoto's voice, so I don't doubt that this could be the case.

On the page, though, I wish he were a little more charismatic than Cell, as I'd wish for all DB villains. (Moro may already be more charismatic than Cell, on that note.)

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by DevilKing99 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:38 am

It's insane how much Moro and all his goons lacked character, 73 is only interesting because of his copy ability that's it.

Moro has no character or backstory, he is easily the worst major villain when seen in canon, We don't have the slightest clue on what Moro is backstory despite being the main villain.

Filler villain right, but even filler villains have backstories.

I remember something saying Moro feels like a villain from the Z movies because of how boring he is, but all of those Z movie villains at least had backstories, Moro does not even have that, hell flipping Fuu from heroes has more of a back story than Moro does.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:13 am

I really wish people would get off the 'backstory' bandwagon. Possession of a 'backstory' by a villain doesn't necessarily do anything much to tell the story at hand, and it doesn't necessarily do anything much to make a good character, either.

Besides which, Moro does have a backstory: we see it in Chapter 43. He's an evil wizard from 10 million years ago who destroyed lots of planets to feed himself, and was eventually stopped by Dai Kaioshin. It's a spare backstory, but it is nevertheless a backstory, and it's not really any less of a backstory than Majin Buu got. Would the story really have been served, or Moro's personal character really have been developed, by telling us specifically why he uses magic, or why he needs to eat ki? Would learning of some great personal tragedy substantially alter the presentation of Moro for the arc, or alter the way the plot points land in the story? Would learning his parentage or shoe size or postal address help things along?

Seriously. I enjoy 'lore' and extra info as much as the next fan, but I don't see how extra background detail would add anything to Moro's character as presented in this arc, or to the shape of the arc overall. Only making him do interesting and unusual things within the arc itself - for storytelling or characterisation purposes - would do that.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:26 pm

Moro is without a doubt the worst villain in the entire franchise. I would even take Super 17 or Bio Broly over him.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by batistabus » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:51 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 am Cell completely lives and dies on Norio Wakamoto's voice, so I don't doubt that this could be the case.

On the page, though, I wish he were a little more charismatic than Cell, as I'd wish for all DB villains. (Moro may already be more charismatic than Cell, on that note.)
What do you have in mind for this? More character acting?
Chuquita wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:54 am Moro was billed as a magic user and that set my hopes up high because I've wanted a magical villain for a long while now. I was thinking Moro would turn out to be like other reality-warping sci-fi antagonists like Q from Star Trek or Mister Mxyzptlk from Superman. I was expecting classic Dr. Slump-style mayhem mixed with some kind of cosmic horror show.
Moro has none of that.
He's straightforward with no sense of humor, no quirks about him, and ultimately we don't ever really get a backstory for his motivation and what drove him to why he committed the crimes that led to his imprisonment in the first place.

They should've kept Cranberry alive longer; Moro needed someone to converse with. One of Toriyama's writing tricks is to introduce characters in pairs, right? Giving someone for Moro to verbally bounce off of for those two years would've helped.
Yes, but Moro was never billed as "Wizard of 100 Spells". He's Hoshikui no Moro - Planet Eater Moro. He knows quite a few spells, but his most dangerous one is his ability to "eat" planets. His motivation is that...he wants to eat planets! It's why he lets Goku/Vegeta survive as free-range livestock. I think that's kind of interesting considering how much DBS utilizes eating and food.

I liked Cranberry, and I wouldn't have minded if he stayed around longer (he might have been revived with the most recent wish?). Even so, Boo and Bobbidi were introduced together, but not long after, it was just Boo. Of course, then Boo started interacting with random Earthlings and Mr. Satan, which are all more satisfying to me than what we see with Moro, but I like Boo more than most DB villains.

Overall, I would have liked to see a more sympathetic side of Moro, even if it was something silly (like Freeza in DBS Broly), and I agree that a character like Cranberry could've helped with that. Even so, I don't think what we got was bad, just fairly straightforward.
Lord Frieza wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:22 pm They wanted a villain who would test the heroes in a different way then past enemies. One who fights Goku in a way no others had and Goku was ill-equipped to do so. Now at the start of this arc, thats what they do, as Moro proves to be more of a danger due to his powers and his planning , rather then just strength. The problem is that the creators don't commit to this idea and quickly fall back into tired trops, and Moro becomes more generic because of this.
The story "falls back" to regular fighting because Goku and Vegeta have already overcome Moro's ability. Moro's a cockroach. Goku/Vegeta could've ended it there, but Moro finds a way to keep fighting. And so on. Maybe that element of planet eating is diminished, but there are other feats of "magic". With Moro73, we get a restoration of Moro's strength (when he absorbed the energy of countless planets), Angel (Merus) vs Devil, Angel (Goku) vs Fallen Angel (Moro), and then a fighting planet. That's not a bad tradeoff.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:26 pm Moro is without a doubt the worst villain in the entire franchise. I would even take Super 17 or Bio Broly over him.
Why?

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:26 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 am
batistabus wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:27 pm He has a strong presence, a unique design, and cool abilities. He effectively drove the story and challenged Goku & co. If the Moro arc is animated, he'll have a cool voice, and I bet he'll be popular.
Cell completely lives and dies on Norio Wakamoto's voice, so I don't doubt that this could be the case.

On the page, though, I wish he were a little more charismatic than Cell, as I'd wish for all DB villains. (Moro may already be more charismatic than Cell, on that note.)
Yep Norio Wakamoto is a treasure


As for a voice for Moro I propose Jouji Nakata. He has a great villain voice

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Cipher » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:21 pm

batistabus wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:51 am
Cipher wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 am Cell completely lives and dies on Norio Wakamoto's voice, so I don't doubt that this could be the case.

On the page, though, I wish he were a little more charismatic than Cell, as I'd wish for all DB villains. (Moro may already be more charismatic than Cell, on that note.)
What do you have in mind for this? More character acting?
Nothing in particular. Just noting that there’s precedent in DB for a vocal performance lending a villain most of the presence people remember them for. Cell is shockingly dull on the page, but obtained a level of iconography (more so than he would have had just being a main, original-run DB villain, which grants a level of iconography on its own) when paired with his voice actor.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:01 am

All the Moro character needed was Toriyama's charm and he would be entertaining.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:31 pm

Boring as sin. And I'd honestly put him down there with Super 17, the Evil Dragons, Lord Slug and #13 among the worst villains in the series.

He functions more as a prop rather than an actual character. As other posters have point out, he feels more like a villain from on the old Z movies -- a lot of style but no substance. And that's a shame, because I really dug the whole old goat wizard vibe he had initially and I feel so much more mileage could have gotten out of that. It's such a shame that gets traded for another humanoid character with generic doomsday ambitions and a hunger for more power.

Moro works fines as an obstacle, but there needs to be more to a character than that -- especially if that character is the central antagonist. Say what you will about Jiren when it came to his aesthetic, development and backstory, but he had SOMETHING going for him and he left an impression.

If the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc gets adapted into a movie or OVA or TV special, I pray that Toei expand on Moro's character. He desperately needs it.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by DevilKing99 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:26 pm Moro is without a doubt the worst villain in the entire franchise. I would even take Super 17 or Bio Broly over him.
All of toyo's villains are dreadfully boring and lack any character at all, Moro is way worse than Super 17, at least they explored his relationship with 18 despite his arc being only a few episodes long,

Moro was the main villain around for 2018 to basically 2021 and failed to establish any back story or character at all, like I said his history with the Grand Kai was never ever remotely explored.

The only character with some character in this arc was Merus and that was Toriyama's idea, not a Toyo one, as said by Toyo himself.

73 is the only other noteworthy because of ability.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by DevilKing99 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:38 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:31 pm Boring as sin. And I'd honestly put him down there with Super 17, the Evil Dragons, Lord Slug and #13 among the worst villains in the series.

He functions more as a prop rather than an actual character. As other posters have point out, he feels more like a villain from on the old Z movies -- a lot of style but no substance. And that's a shame, because I really dug the whole old goat wizard vibe he had initially and I feel so much more mileage could have gotten out of that. It's such a shame that gets traded for another humanoid character with generic doomsday ambitions and a hunger for more power.

Moro works fines as an obstacle, but there needs to be more to a character than that -- especially if that character is the central antagonist. Say what you will about Jiren when it came to his aesthetic, development and backstory, but he had SOMETHING going for him and he left an impression.

If the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc gets adapted into a movie or OVA or TV special, I pray that Toei expand on Moro's character. He desperately needs it.
That's the thing about Toyo he does not develop characters at all.

I see this problem in every arc he writes, nobody in the manga top arc gets any character development pretty much with Roshi pulling some UI move against Jiren when he didn't do jack shit during all of z and even most of Super at that point.

Vegeta calling himself a villain in the more arc when it's been established he's been a hero for a while

Vegeta insulting Whis in the manga.

Piccolo much everything Piccolo said in the manga during this more arc

As matter of fact, do people even realize how much dumb shit Piccolo said and did in the more arc?

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:28 pm

Vegeta and Piccolo were so out of character on the Moro arc it's unreal.

Vegeta insulting Whis on the ToP and the second he gets into trouble he runs to another teacher is simply ugh. Good thing Toei didn't do that stupidity on their ToP.

Maybe Toei can salvage Moro. For starters, they should get rid of that stupid final form he has. I can't think of a more pathetic final form in the series.

Maybe Cell X is worse?

He should also use magic than stuff we have already seen before. Energy absorbing, cloning and fire manipulation has been done before by better characters.

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:10 pm

Moro is like what...the fourth Satan archetype this franchise has?

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Re: Thoughts on Moro's character?

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:19 pm

DevilKing99 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:38 pm As matter of fact, do people even realize how much dumb shit Piccolo said and did in the more arc?
Do you realize how much dumb shit Piccolo says and does in DB?

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