Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

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GodVegetto91
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Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:48 am

Let’s say you spend 4 years studying for a masters degree (Omen) and maybe from there a PHD (MUI). . But you fail the exam. The University offers you to retake the exam and continue the course. You refuse just because your friend passed. Instead you deny you ever went to College in the first place.

You want to start over doing a different subject somewhere else. But you find out there's no other universities in your area. So you just hang around hoping they build one.

So you tresspass on your old College grounds. Sneering about how one day you're going to be better than your friend who passed. And you're going to do it by going to a college that you hope gets built. And on top of that, you want this imaginary college to have no teachers in it. Because you don't believe in mentors. And it’s a point of pride that you never had one.

That’s where we are at with Vegeta.
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:17 am

An actual person wouldn't throw away 4 years of work toward UI for some unknown method he vaguely hopes becomes apparent.

He's acting like he knows he has a writer.

It way too late in the game to bring up the idea that he has a problem learning what Goku learns, or learning where Goku learned.

The writers want Vegeta to be around Goku and Whis because they want him to be there for major plot updates, but at the same time they've written out his reason for being there by having him want to go his own way, without mentors. So theres this awkward situation where he'll be trespassing there, while complaining about what Whis has to teach.

The idea could have worked if it was done much earlier.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:09 am

Well, now that he have more spirit control because of his training in Yardrat it should also be easier for him to get somehow stronger too.

Will he attain UI or something else more suitable to his fighting style?

The best thing would just and simply wait for it to actually happen!

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:19 am

Whats blatantly inconsistent is that in RoF, Whis says UI will take a long time, and that Vegeta will have a harder time learning it. Whis still decides to train Vegeta for UI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exg0thyJSDU

Vegeta accepts all of this as he trains with Whis anyway. He didn't say "I want to go my own way without a mentor" back then. That would have been the time.

Instead, just 4 years later when it turns out Whis was right, its more difficult for Vegeta and it takes a long time. Vegeta just gives up even though he accepted this before and Whis gives up even though he's the one who said it'd take a long time and that Vegeta would have a harder time. And yet trained him anyway.

Whis gives up by saying "Vegeta's natural style wouldn't lead to UI, he's right, it doesn't suit him".

And Vegeta just flat out denies he ever had a mentor.

I'm confused. Who is doing what and why? None of this makes any sense.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Gogeta SSJ Blue wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:09 am
Well, now that he have more spirit control because of his training in Yardrat it should also be easier for him to get somehow stronger too.

Will he attain UI or something else more suitable to his fighting style?

The best thing would just and simply wait for it to actually happen!
I know... But time is soooo slow! And the weeks and months take soooo long. Way before that point hits, we have already thought about countless theories to answer our own insecurities!
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:57 pm

TBMx wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:19 am
Whats blatantly inconsistent is that in RoF, Whis says UI will take a long time, and that Vegeta will have a harder time learning it. Whis still decides to train Vegeta for UI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exg0thyJSDU

Vegeta accepts all of this as he trains with Whis anyway. He didn't say "I want to go my own way without a mentor" back then. That would have been the time.

Instead, just 4 years later when it turns out Whis was right, its more difficult for Vegeta and it takes a long time. Vegeta just gives up even though he accepted this before and Whis gives up even though he's the one who said it'd take a long time and that Vegeta would have a harder time. And yet trained him anyway.

Whis gives up by saying "Vegeta's natural style wouldn't lead to UI, he's right, it doesn't suit him".

And Vegeta just flat out denies he ever had a mentor.

I'm confused. Who is doing what and why? None of this makes any sense.
100% agreed. It’s literally just “bad writing”. There’s no way to defend this shit.

Vegeta should’ve just gone after UI. There’s nothing “wrong” or “shameful” about following in Goku’s footsteps, if that happens to be the proper way forward, then why not take it? I really don’t understand this pride.

It’s literally holding one BACK!

This doesn’t just apply to the Dragon Ball world though.. It applies to real life aswell! Pride is ALWAYS the enemy.

The only time it is “right” is if you’re up against someone you have a chance to take and your friend offers you help and you then refuse it because it is perfectly within your realm of possibility to defeat your opponent and you like fighting on your own because you’re s strong, capable fighter with a “healthy” level of pride.
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:20 pm

TBMx wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:17 am

He's acting like he knows he has a writer.

I think this hits the nail on the head

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:32 pm

On the other hand, I guess deciding not to do something because you feel it's not right for you, but being unsure what the actual 'right thing' is and bumming around until you hit on something you hope will be 'the thing', is about as relatable as Vegeta's ever been.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:35 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:32 pm
On the other hand, I guess deciding not to do something because you feel it's not right for you, but being unsure what the actual 'right thing' is and bumming around until you hit on something you hope will be 'the thing', is about as relatable as Vegeta's ever been.
If you don't mind it at all I will post what you said to me about this on another thread.

I really find it appropriated to be here!

Here it is then:
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:22 pm
Gogeta SSJ Blue wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:12 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:07 pm
The world is big, and the writers can make up other things at the drop of a hat.

Say, for instance, Whis reveals that there are other Divine Secrets besides Migatte no Gokui ("The Secret of Selfishness"), and the next thing he reveals aligns better with Vegeta's personal style and outlook (e.g., the golden eyes and unfailing, perfect accuracy displayed by the Kinmei in Toriyama's work Kintoki writ large and increased to the nth degree, so the wielder never misses)? Then he's relevant again. Or something else, of this ilk.

Really, it's easy to come up with things that can keep Vegeta relevant in power terms (or else in broader usefulness), but making him fall back into the rut of being 'kinda like Goku, but not as good' doesn't really do him (or us) any favours.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Yuji » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:39 pm

Vegeta had already given up on Ultra Instinct all the way back in the Tournament of Power. That was (essentially) three arcs ago. He has developed his own evolution of Super Saiyan Blue taking the progress he has acquired while training under Whis (the successive mastery improvements of Super Saiyan Blue likely allowed him to develop his unique evolution form), and then acquired a greater spirit control by training with the Yardratians. Vegeta clearly isn't opposed to learning under masters, he has just given up on learning a technique that involves clearing one's mind, because this is something Vegeta can't do. Whis notes in Resurrection F that Vegeta overthinks too much and later in the Tournament of Power agrees that the Saiyan isn't suited to Ultra Instinct and is correct in seeking his own path. The story has already discarded Ultra Instinct as an option for Vegeta long ago and given its reasons why.

Out-of-universe, it is also more interesting if the now deuteragonist of the series has a different skill set from the protagonist now that both Goku and Vegeta share comparable prominence in the series. Vegeta despite being Goku's rival has acquired a much more supportive role in combat, so something as bombastic and spotlight-worthy as Ultra Instinct likely wouldn't suit him if the intention is to keep Vegeta as a support.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by pepd » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:05 pm

...This is why analogies are not suited for discussion. Vegeta was training with Whis before knowing about MnG. He put a low of effort into MnG, was told he wasn't suited for that style, kept trying, realized he really wasn't suited for it and decided to improve in his own way. What exactly? We don't know, he just got a break, maybe he get something special or maybe he will just keep getting stronger and gainning more ki control of his own power? I think it would be really fitting

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:31 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:39 pm
Vegeta had already given up on Ultra Instinct all the way back in the Tournament of Power. That was (essentially) three arcs ago. He has developed his own evolution of Super Saiyan Blue taking the progress he has acquired while training under Whis (the successive mastery improvements of Super Saiyan Blue likely allowed him to develop his unique evolution form), and then acquired a greater spirit control by training with the Yardratians. Vegeta clearly isn't opposed to learning under masters, he has just given up on learning a technique that involves clearing one's mind, because this is something Vegeta can't do. Whis notes in Resurrection F that Vegeta overthinks too much and later in the Tournament of Power agrees that the Saiyan isn't suited to Ultra Instinct and is correct in seeking his own path. The story has already discarded Ultra Instinct as an option for Vegeta long ago and given its reasons why.

Out-of-universe, it is also more interesting if the now deuteragonist of the series has a different skill set from the protagonist now that both Goku and Vegeta share comparable prominence in the series. Vegeta despite being Goku's rival has acquired a much more supportive role in combat, so something as bombastic and spotlight-worthy as Ultra Instinct likely wouldn't suit him if the intention is to keep Vegeta as a support.
Vegeta didn't develop SSBE. He just powered up in frustration and got it. Goku powered up in frustration for the exact same reason, frustration at lack of strength against Jiren, but he didn't get SSBE. As they're the same species, that doesn't make sense either.

Whis notes in RoF that he thinks too much, but he didn't say he wasn't suited for it and he should go learn something else. Why the change of heart? Whis says in RoF that it takes a long time and that it'd be difficult or Vegeta. Yet they trained in it for years.

Yet only when Goku gets it first, Vegeta decides to abandon it. Vegeta, the 50 year old man decides to abandon those years of work because of that. Even though he was told years ago, that Goku would take to it easier. :crazy:

And as for greater spirit control - in battle he went straight back to raging like standard Vegeta.
Image

Image

Its always one step forward, one step back with him.

- He learns instant transmission. He unlearns it for no reason.
-He learns Spirit Control through meditation and balanced mind. He goes right back to raging and got tired after one energy blast against Moro.
- He trained for UI since RoF, but gave up on it the moment Goku learned it.
- All that character development, he goes back to calling himself a villain.

At this point I'm surprised he didn't unlearn SSBE somehow.

The gap between him and Goku exists solely because of his own choices.

As for the support role, theres very little action in that role. A shame. :yawn:

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:36 pm

TBMx wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:31 pm
Yet only when Goku gets it first, Vegeta decides to abandon it. Vegeta, the 50 year old man decides to abandon those years of work because of that. Even though he was told years ago, that Goku would take to it easier. :crazy:

And as for greater spirit control - in battle he went straight back to raging like standard Vegeta.

Its always one step forward, one step back with him.

- He learns instant transmission. He unlearns it for no reason.
-He learns Spirit Control through meditation and balanced mind. He goes right back to raging and got tired after one energy blast against Moro.
- He trained for UI since RoF, but gave up on it the moment Goku learned it.

At this point I'm surprised he didn't unlearn SSBE somehow.

The gap between him and Goku exists solely because of his own choices.

As for the support role, theres very little action in that role. A shame. :yawn:
I must admit, I do find this trend for Vegeta slightly frustrating and retrograde for his character. My main grudge is that it feels more like a silly constraint by the marketing department than organic development. "Vegeta can't teleport, that's Goku's move! Are we gonna have to give him the move in video games now?" Like, he always huffs over having to hold Goku's hand (ew man contact /s) whenever they need to teleport anywhere. Surely he'd be happy to learn that first so he wouldn't have to put up with that embarrassment anymore? Plus, the scene where he uses it is one of the most clumsy scenes Toyotaro has ever written.

His discarding of Ultra Instinct, that's neither here nor there for me. On the one hand, it does feel slightly more in-character for Vegeta to abandon that particular technique, especially since it's been drilled into his head that it simply doesn't mesh with his core personality, but the fact that for the longest time SSBE was his only answer to it... it felt like a cheap consolation prize (yet, I guess he was ironically stronger than Goku for a while, since the latter couldn't use UI at will). Of course, now he has Spirit Control, but even that was technically learned by Goku first, albeit in only one application. And ultimately, Spirit Fission feels like a much more situational ability, not the kind that'll show up as a super move in FighterZ any time soon, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since it serves the story well.

I mean, yeah, Vegeta likes to distinguish himself from Goku which has always been true, but in doing so, he hampers his own potential by focusing on superficial stuff like techniques. He's literally a martial arts hipster.
- All that character development, he goes back to calling himself a villain.
This, though, I've never had a problem with this. If anything, the sum of Vegeta's long character development is his own inability to see himself as a hero in spite of all the good he's done, because to him, the bad stuff overrides it. He doesn't wear it like a badge of pride like he used to, more one of shame and repentance (plus a bit of intimidation to Moro). Decently complex stuff for Dragon Ball.
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:50 pm

I don’t understand why people want Vegeta to get UI so bad. UI will probably be surpassed in this new arc otherwise there wouldn’t be any conflict if Goku could just beat all the villains so easily. Is it really so exciting for Vegeta to get Goku’s leftovers?

As for Vegeta messing up because he is Vegeta. Vegeta messes up because the writers dictate that he does. Vegeta really didn’t do anything ultimately that awful in the last arc it was mostly bad luck but really the writers wanted Goku the main character to be the hero so Vegeta had to lose. Hell they also made Goku make a dumb mistake so Vegeta would still have a role to play in the end. While it is obvious to say they are characters not real people I do think some times people forget that when analyzing them. Goku and Vegeta’s actions have to also serve the plot.

As for what’s next for Vegeta who knows? I do think the writers struggle a bit finding a new power that will be as exciting as whatever Goku has. But at the same time Vegeta is still more powerful than most other characters. He has not surpassed Goku (and let’s face it he probably never will for more than like 1/2 a chapter) but that doesn’t mean he can’t keep improving and learning new things which basically is what he is doing.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kagari » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:53 pm

Vegeta couldn't catch up to Goku after the Cell arc so this new mindset of him having to in the modern content really doesn't make much sense. Vegeta is still and will always be, a support character.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by The Undying » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:11 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:50 pm
I don’t understand why people want Vegeta to get UI so bad.
If anything, the GPP arc shows that Vegeta can be an enjoyable deuteragonist without Ultra Instinct or even necessarily catching up to Goku. Forced Spirit Fission (or what he does with it, in any case) serves as a nice culmination of his personal growth in that story.

Vegeta only begrudgingly trained under Whis in the first place; he's already made it clear that his heart just wasn't in that method. UI is a pointless compromise for a character who doesn't really need it.
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:05 am

My problem isn't that Vegeta thinks UI isn't for him, its that he only started to think that once Goku got it.

Before that, he was willing to train with Whis for it.

Which is extremely childish for a 50 year old man.

Its like if you wanted to be Goku's second, this would be the way to go about it.

I don't think the writers know what to do with him. They try out ideas but don't have the confidence to follow through.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:57 am

Gohan should never have defeated Cell, it made people believe that everyone can get the chance to beat the main villian. thats why we have Vegeta fans complaining every arc about "getting screwed over" and "not getting his time to shine".

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kinokima » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:31 am

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:57 am
Gohan should never have defeated Cell, it made people believe that everyone can get the chance to beat the main villian. thats why we have Vegeta fans complaining every arc about "getting screwed over" and "not getting his time to shine".
It’s not just Vegeta fans. People who hate the character always bash him for never beating a main villain. That is actually what makes the situation worse. It’s a vicious cycle of fans expecting more than they are going to get and people who hate the character making fun of the fans when Vegeta loses.

And quite honestly I think the writers are at fault too. They often do write situations where it may seem like Vegeta has a chance to win this time instead of writing him in the support role from the start.

TBMx wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:05 am
Its like if you wanted to be Goku's second, this would be the way to go about it.
Except always getting the same transformation after Goku is literally being his second. Forging his own path may not put him ahead of Goku but at least he would be doing his own thing. Yes the writers need to follow through with it but I don’t see how this is a bad decision on his part.

I also don’t see how there was anything childish about not wanting UI. He just came to the epiphany that it wouldn’t suit him and Whis agreed.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kagari » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:26 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:57 am
Gohan should never have defeated Cell, it made people believe that everyone can get the chance to beat the main villian. thats why we have Vegeta fans complaining every arc about "getting screwed over" and "not getting his time to shine".
Gohan is at least still an extension of Goku, literally. It works. Vegeta has no relation to Goku.

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