A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

[Nistarkail]

Greetings everybody and nice to meet you. As the title of this thread suggests, here we can discuss and comment about every impression related to characters power levels, techniques, fights, etc.

Obviously, everybody knows that nowadays is technically impossible to state something precise or objective related to power scaling after Frieza Saga. And yes, it's also true that Toriyama and Toyotaro never "dare" to speak about this argument, hinting only during interviews some elements related to power levels.

But personally, it can be interesting to analyze together how things seem to be chapter after chapter and collect some data.

If numbers are too high to write down, it's easier to compare characters to previous enemies and rivals.

--- I don't consider OAVs or anime filler because most of their facts go against the original series (like Yamcha beating Olibu who was struggling against Pikkon, who easily defeats Perfect Cell). ---
Character analysis (including Granolah the Survival Saga):

GRANOLAH THE SURVIVOR SAGA
*** Granolah's side ***

- Granolah (before): when he appeared for the first time, he was able to wipe out Goichi Soldiers alone (not a big deal compared to other feats we saw until now), OG 73 clones (who have a weak point), and dominate Soshiru & co. (not impressive, with one error occurred during his sniping shots). Actually he relies on space guns, Oatmeal's calculations, probably telekinesis, finger beams and sniping skills. Judging his poor performance against Gas and Elec's statements, his power level at maximum can be around 350.000-400.000 (let's remember that in his first form Frieza exterminated the Saiyan race with the minimum effort). However, considering his race was not stronger than Saiyans (who grows stronger with Zenkai, their cells and other tricks), his increase of power is not a bad at all (even if he was not able to detect auras or fly). However considering he used the Dragon Balls to ask to be strongest in the universe, means that he cannot count on strange powerup like Zenkai.

- Granolah (after expressed the wish to be the strongest warrior): he renounced to his 150 years of life in order to "double" his power and awaken his potential. From the fight against Oil, he was able to subdue him easily and destroy him with a Hakai-like technique. His telekinesis is improved and judging from the Chapter 71 spoilers, he will fight against Goku/Vegeta. I'm really sure that his power multiplied several times instead of become twice, so now he has the necessary power to fight against a SSJ 3 at least.

- Oatmeal: not evaluable. Basically it’s like Bulma or similar characters.

- Monaito: 500 years old and not able to move, anymore. I cannot imagine his power equal to Piccolo Daimao or Muten Roshi during the first tournament, so probably he is around 100-120.

*** The Heeters and mercenaries ***
They are more or less a copy-paste of Bojack group (even if we speak generally about power levels), but we don't know their strength yet.

- Elec: the leader, and judging his way to calculate everything, I will be not surprised if he's hiding his true strength, surpassing like Gohan or stronger characters. I think also he will absorb OG 73 powers like Moro did in the past. Probably the second strongest of his family.
- Gas: the only Heeter we see in action so far. He seems really fast and strong, probably near to C-17's strength.
- Maki: fast and agile. Not so fast to keep up with Granolah. I dare to say that she can be maybe strong at least as base SSJ Goku or Vegeta.
- Oil: super strong and resilient, but not really fast. Confirmed to be weaker than Maki. Even him can be considered strong as SSJ Goku or Vegeta.

- Soshiru: probably around 1.600 (more or less like Kurinin and Tien after the arrival of Nappa and Vegeta on Earth).

- Soshiru's troopers: 110 at maximum. Not stronger than Goku or Roshi in the first Tenkaichi, probably.

MORO'S THE EATER OF PLANET'S SAGA
*** Moro's Galactic prisoners ***

- Moro (after absorbed OG 73): far beyond Jiren but not above Ultra Instinct Goku and Beerus. His power is however really impressive, managing somehow to use Ultra-Instinct for a bit of time. Even Whis stated that his self-destruction could be enough to erase Universe 7.

- Moro (after descended to Earth): trained Goku and Vegeta gave to him a lot of troubles but this form was far to be strong as Jiren that easily handled SSJ Blue’s combined strength.

- Moro (after became young): a step after Goku and Vegeta's SSJ Blue's form in that moment and beyond Black Goku (considering he can use magic powers also).

- Moro (with some energy absorbed): not strong as SSJ Blue yet or Majin Bu but good enough to reach impressive feats and flip the cards on the table with some strategies and stamina.

- Moro (weakened): not stronger than SSJ Blue, but he endured a lot against their attacks. So I suppose he was superior to SSJ3, at least.

--- I want to open a little digression about my personal opinion regarding Moro’s guys. From what the story showed to us, the goat magician had the habit to increase a lot the power of his minions, so maybe he spent a lot of points for each one. ---

- Saganbo: before super-doping, Vegeta stated that the leader of Galactic prisoners could be faced by guys like Trunks. After the first Power-up, Saganbo utterly got the V against the strongest Z warriors; after the arrival on Earth, his strength did not arrive at levels like standard SSJ Blue (but enough to impress Goku).

- OG 73: not at the level of C-17. Its strength, abilities, and infinite stamina are really troublesome, but de facto he was beaten by Gohan and the Androids. So, it was surely strong as SSJ3 but not beyond.

- Zauyogi: he claimed to be superior to the other lower fellows. He gave a hard time to Yamcha and Tien together before Goku's arrival and supposing that this guy is not lying, this guy could be easily strong as 2nd Cell (considering that Tien and Yamcha surely trained themselves really hard after Majin Bu’s Saga, and that more probably they were far stronger than before).

- Yunba: really strong and agjle, but with poor experience and skills like the rest of his fellows. From the fights against Kurinin, he had the upper hand until the last Kamehameha brought him to a miserable end. However he was doped enough to be a bit below than Zauyogi but enough to be a good secondary antagonist. Personally I think that he's more or less strong as C-16 and Kamiccolo in DBZ.

- Bikurra Quoitur: it has a natural resilience of a Metal Man, but its actions were not more impressive than Yunba. So it could arrive more less at the level of C-16. Obviously he is the weaker counterpart of Auta Magetta, who had a nice match against SSJ Blue Vegeta.

- Yuzun: supposed to be really strong. If we consider that Frieza'elite power varies between Guldo and Ginew, probably his power is around 280.000-300.000 (ten more times than Zarbon) and we have to recognize that he resisted to base Vegeta's attacks and plus he was able to lift tons of weights and launch against him). Not strong as Frieza first form.

- Shimorekka: introduced as really murderous and strong since he killed Zoon-seijins with little effort. But since he was fighting against Jaco with the upper hand, guys like Yamcha or Tien could easily stomp him. However I suppose his strength was not beyond 9.000-10.000.

- Miza, Kikaza, Iwaza: the weakest characters of the Galactic Brigade. It was noted that they have powerful chi's (but it was Kurinin's advice for Master Roshi who has not the same quantity of energy like the younger Z-Warriors) but all of them were so slow that the old geezer fights them with his pseudo U.I. form. Fused together, they were so strong to surpass every companion except doped Saganbo. So, surely their power is around 5.000-8.000 If we are speaking about one of the trio and merged together they can reach the level of Super Trunks at the time of Cell Saga.

- Moro's troopers: 4.000-5.000 maximum, being generous.

- Cranberry: 700-800 at max (surely not stronger than Radditz and a bit weaker of Yajirobai). Not the kind of guy with potential to become stronger than he was on Dragon Ball Z.

- Pasta: surely not stronger than Piccolo Daimao, but from what there was briefly shown, I say around 180.
- Penne and Ghetti: max. 150. Not stronger than Tamburello.

*** Planet Namek ***
- Average Namekians: always 3.000 at maximum.
- Super Namekian Warrior: Piccolo and Nail fused together in order to get a monstrous power-up. And again Piccolo fused with Kami who had a really low ki, but getting a tremendous strength. These fusions were made for storytelling purpose but I’m sure that those warriors together at least created an impressive Namekian that could be strong at least as SSJ 3.

*** Galactic defenders & co.***

- Uub: surprisingly the person with the strongest ki on the Earth. After he donated his energy to boost Goku's power, much to Vegeta's surprise, this fact confirmed that nobody (except protagonists and superior deities) surpassed his raw power.

- Majin Bu/Grand Supreme Kai: stated to be strong enough to stand in against Moro (with a lot of energy absorbed) and probably good as Mystic Gohan (even if Evil Bu’s energy now is not inside him). His Immunity to magic and arsenal of weird attacks made him really dangerous at the point he was about to defeat Moro.

- Trunks: in his SSJ form, he sparred against Mini-Cells (but this is a really good point because during Cell's Saga, each baby monster was enough to dominate people like Vegeta or Piccolo). However he's not strong his future counterpart during Cell games but around the level of SSJ Gohan after the training in the Space-Time Chamber.

- Goten: slightly weaker than Trunks but if he handled multiple Mini-Cell at once, it means that both he and Trunks are actually much stronger than before.

- Gohan: still weaker than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta, but strong enough to be superior to OG-73. This thanks also to the last training with Piccolo, who sharpened him again. Goku stated that is improvement was impressive, that at that point was far stronger than before.

- C-17: stated to be weaker than Gohan but good enough to spar against SSJ 3 Goku (before the TOP he briefly fought him). It easily defeated OG-73, whose power was enough to compete against Gohan and Piccolo during the first time. Having infinite energy, means that this is his “potential”, even if limited in his android body.

- Piccolo: when he came back to action against Frost, Goku stated that he "will not beat him even after millions of years". After Goku came on Earth, he complimented also to him because he recognized his actual strength (and Goku is the kind of guy who appreciated only the ones who acquired a significant powerup with their efforts). I assume that the current Piccolo surpassed Super Perfect Cell and probably SSJ3 Goku. He surpassed C-17 who barely scratched Moro.

- C-18: not much of her improvement is known, but I doubt she had some time to train with C-17 (who's really busy in his job), or Krillin (who works everyday and he is weaker than her). Far stronger than guys like Zauyogi and maybe better than 2nd Cell, now (if we can suppose she had some time to train).

- Yamcha: one of the three strongest human in the Earth. I assume he really trained hard and he resisted better than Tien in the fight against Zauyogi. Not at the level of 2nd Cell, C-16, or Kamiccolo, but strong enough to fully compete with 1st Cell's form.

- Tienshinhan: his Shihoko did nothing against Frost, who was stronger than 2nd Cell. Considering his habit to train and his last fights, maybe he largely surpassed C-16 but not guys like the same Perfect Cell or Frost in his final form. Let's not forget that even Super Bu stated that Tien could be at that time a very good fighter.

- Krillin: the strongest earthling and the only one who managed to beat one of Moro’s minions. It was stated he trained hard in order to beat Yunba and probably he's good enough to be strong at least as one of the Trio za Danger or 2nd Cell. Moreover, thanks to his aura, Goku was able to detect Earth's position.

- Jaozi: not stronger than Nappa but around the power level of a Namekian warrior (maybe a bit less like 2.500-2.600).

- Muten Roshi: I cannot see him stronger than Saibamen. His U.I.-like technique goes beyond raw powers but I think his power now is around 1.500-1.700.

- Merus: weaker than Whis but superior than Bills, considering he was an angel. In his mortal form, we have to see yet how he became weak. I give him a score of 11 while Whis was officially stated as 15.

- Jaco: 1.700-1.800. His stamina is a bit better than Radditz/Saibamen and he often spents his time to capture fodder space criminals whose power level are not so troublesome at all. He relies to technologies, agility, and his enhanced sight, so that's why I'm confident to assign him this power level.

- Galactic troopers: around 800-1.500 exaggerating. Not stronger than Tien in DBZ with a power of 1.830.

*** Divine Realm ***
- Whis: from what we know so far, the strongest being in Universe 7. He easily stops U.I. Goku and Moro in his final form with the minimum effort. It was officially said that he was 15 on a hypothetical scale.

- Beerus: weaker than Whis and more probably also than Merus (before his resurrection), but still stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Officially confirmed that in the scale of God power, he’s a 10.

- Goku: in his U.I. form he can compete with Beerus but in his SSJ Blue form not able to face Beerus and Moro's last two forms. If previously Toriyama said that he was a 6 at the time of Battle of Gods, now he can be a 8.5 (counting that his U.I. is the lowest compared to the other deities).

- Vegeta: he has more technique than Goku, and probably his SSJ Blue form is more shaped than Goku's. From the training held with Beerus in chapter 69 can assume that his score can be barely a 8.

TOURNAMENT OF POWER'S SAGA
Here, I’d like to make a premise. Considering billions and trillions are hard and boring to calculate, I prefer to classify each fighter with grades, following more or less the strength of important enemies during DBZ Saga:

GOD (Ultra Instinct).
S+: (levels around Jiren and SSJ Vegeth).
S (between SSJ Blue and SSJ Rose).
AAA (SSJ God level-Golden Frieza).
AA (around Super Bu with Gohan Absorbed and SSJ Vegito)
A+ (around Super Bu-Mystic Gohan).
A (around SSJ3-Evil Fat Bu).
BBB (between SSJ Majin Vegeta and Kid Bu).
BB (stronger than Super Perfect Cell but not than SSJ Majin Vegeta).
B+ (between Darbura-Super Perfect Cell).
B (between SSJ full power Gohan and Goten/Trunks).
CCC (between Shin and 2nd Cell).
CC (between Kamiccolo-Kibito).
C+: (SSJ after Namek-Androids).
C: (between SSJ Goku on Namek and Frieza)
D+ (Frieza’s power until last form).
D (Beyond Super Elite): between 150.000-500.000. These numbers mean that a person could be strong as Kaiohken Base Goku (on Namek) or Full power Vegeta, I’d not beyond. Slightly weaker than base Frieza.
E (Super Elite): between 50.000-150.000. Ginew’s power Level.
F (Ginew Special Force): around 30.000-60.000. Ginew was impressed when he calculated the first power level.
G (Elite Alien): around 18.000-30.000. So more or less like Vegeta after defeated Zarbon.
H (Alien warrior): over 9.000 but weaker than Cui (18.000).
I (Nappa): stronger than namekian fighters but weaker than base Goku on Earth (8.000-9.000).
J (Namekian) the weakest fighters. They can at maximum arrive to power levels under 3.000 (like namekian warriors).
Z (Saibamen and below).

*** SUPREME BEINGS ***

- Twin Zeno: like a "Dungeon Master", basically. They are not suitable to fight with invincibility and infinite cosmic powers. He cannot be evaluated.

- Zeno's assistants: at the times of DBZ, a guy like Shin was expected to be far beyond everyone. But when he saw PuiPui for the first time, he was so worried that he thought that Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta had to join their forces to beat him. I cannot image how they are strong, honestly.

- Angels: stronger than Gods of Destruction. I seriously doubt that Beerus can beat one of them.

- Daishinkan (Grand Priest): the strongest being of all Universes. Far beyond everybody and everyone.

- Gods of Destruction: between 8.5 and 9.5 like Beerus on hypothetical scale. Beerus is officially the strongest among them.

- Kaioshin of all Universes: probably strong as South Kaioshin, who was stated to be stronger than Piccolo during the Tenkaichi during Bu's saga.

*** UNIVERSE 2 ***

CC - Ribrianne: surely good enough to put out a discrete fight against C-18, but not stronger than her.

C - Rozie and Kakunsa: not strong as Ribrianne but both of them can be considered among the strongest mortals in their universes.

D+ - Harmira: strong as Shosa of Universe 4 but not a top-rank fighter.

E - Zirloin: no much data about Thanos’ imitation.

E – Prum: weak enough to be eliminated by C-18 attacks with no efforts.

H – Rabanra: a low-rank fighter.

J – Zarbuto: he matched Methiop from Universe 10, who was eliminated easily by Gohan without any efforts.

J – Bikal: no data from manga and most probably a little shrimp, considering the lack of panels.

J - Jimizu: probably the weakest of the whole group and one of the first ones to be eliminated.

*** UNIVERSE 3 ***
S - Agnilasa: one of the strongest being in the Tournamemt of power and mortal of Universe 3. Eliminated by SSJ Kale's kick.

CCC - Borareta, Pancev, Koitsukai: strong enough to compete with the Trio za Danger (very strong fighters), and make Goku compliment to Gohan to have faced the robots together. It means that they were dangerous enough to be stronger than the standard fighters of the arena.

CCC - Biarra: good enough to put a fight with Auta-Magetta, who put previously a good fight against Vegeta.

CCC – Majin-Kayo: beaten by Jiren first and later by Kale.
However he was still conscious after beaten by the first, which is really impressive and at least more than a SSJ 2 Level.

CC – Narirama: not stronger than the robot trio.

C+ - Catopesra: strong enough to compete with Nink, but blocked from a single grip from base Vegeta.

C - Za Priccio: strong enough to compete to base Cabbla, but not against his SSJ form.

C - Nigrissi: smart, agile, but not so stronger compared to his companions.

Z – Paparoni: probably the weakest guy in the Tournament of Power. I cannot classify him as a fighter, either. Due to his role, however I’m admitting that he was pretty useful in the Team.

*** UNIVERSE 4 ***
B - Damon: this little bug is in my honest opinion one of the strongest and smartest contestants during the TOP: he knocked Piccolo and gains attention even from Jiren, Dyspo, Goku and C-17. I will not be surprised if he's strong as a Mini-Cell. He's surely the best fighter of this universe.

B - Gamisalas: not stronger than Damon but smart and good enough to have a great role eliminating C-18 and other fighters. One-shotted by Piccolo once discovered his weakness.

CCC - Majora: no much data, but he seemed to be a good fighter.

C+ - Nink: maybe strong for his universe but not good enough for base Vegeta.

D+ - Shosa: able to fight against Harmira. Blasted by Kale after some time.

D - Ganos: I don't consider fillers, so I cannot evaluate him precisely. His transformation was absent in the manga.

E - Monna: not a good fighter for sure but not among the worst ones.

G – Dercori: strong as base Kale (without any will to fight). For the standards of the TOP, she was not at the least in the end of the worst fighters for sure. She fought also against Sorrel, who was fighting against Piccolo with another two comrades (the golem and the batman).

Z – Cawai: not any data to understand her true strength, but name and appearance suggested that she was a Cameo and a presence to complete her team.

Z - Xiangca: the weakest fighter with Paparoni in all of the TOP's saga.

*** UNIVERSE 6 ***
AAA - Kafla: at the Level of Gohan during the Tournament of Power.

AA – Hit: excellent fighter, but as per storytelling script, he is now weaker than SSJ Blue but still stronger than Gohan (during TOP), C-17, and many other fighters.

A - Auta-Magetta: mega-strenght/stamina, with enough power to compete against SSJ Blue, but the speed of a snail. Earthlings were able to avoid its punch, even if it was a decoy to separate them.

BBB - Kale: in her base form, she's really weak. In her "Broly's form", she was the strongest fighter after Goku and Jiren.

B+ - Caulifla: with her max. power she was able to put a discrete against Golden Frieza and caught the attention from Goku and other strong fighters. Still stronger than Cabba.

B+ - Frost: not better than Hit but good enough to put out the weaker and average fighters in the arena. However, he’s a B-series fighter and without any shadow of doubt not strong as Frieza.

B - Cabba: weaker than SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Kale. For standards, he's a good fighter.

CCC - Botamo: even with his power, he can be easily beaten by strong fighters who put intelligence before raw power. Probably a bit weaker than 2nd Cell form.

CC - Saonel and Pirina: both weaker than Piccolo. They fought against Napapa who was beaten by U7's Namekian without too much effort.

ZZ – Dr. Rota: really?

*** Universe 7 ***
AAA - Frieza: I will evaluate only him, because the other ones are in the first part of this long post. Well, we know how his power works and surely he's strong as SSJ Blue form. It cannot be a surprise if he trained hard after TOP.

*** Universe 8 ***

B+ - Bergamo: supposed to be the strongest fighter, he lost against Piccolo. So more probably, judging from his behaviour, he can be slightly weaker than him.

B - Basil and Lavender: weaker than Bergamo, but strong enough to keep up Gohan and Piccolo for some moment of the Tournament. Messed up by a simple strategy set up from Frieza.

CCC - Hyssop: I dare to say that after the Trio za Danger, he's the 4th strongest member of Team Universe 9. He gave some really difficult moment to contestants during the Tournament, including Frost who was not a low-rank fighter.

CCC - Comfrey: not a weak fighter. His raw strength was good enough to make Frost nervous and be defeated by a strong attack from him.

D - Chappil: weaker than Hyssop and Comfrey, but slightly stronger than low-rank fighters.

D – Roselle: able to hold Picolo and give some hard time (counting also the teamwork with his mates), but let’s say that he had not anything special.

E - Sorrel: the maximum extent was to handle a few punch from Frost, but she's not a good example of strong fighter.

G - Hop: a bit weaker than Sorrel and Roselle, but a low-grade fighter.

I - Oregano: weak enough and one of the first members from Universe 9 to be defeated.

*** Universe 10 ***
CCC - Obuni: from what Toyotaro and Toriyama made appear, he seemed to be the best member of his team. He tried to face Piccolo, Gohan and C-17 who are really strong figures.

CCC - Murichim: able to fight well during the Tournament of power, strong more or less as Obuni.

CC - Napapa: able to fight against Saonel and Pirina, but not against Piccolo. However, his power level and skills are not comparable to fodder fighters.

D+ - Dyrasem: embarrassing.

D - Rubalt: a weak fighter but not the worst example of his team.

E - Zircor: weaker than fighters like Hyssop, and from the manga panels, his performance was surely bad.

E - Methiop: weak, and K.O.ed from an annoyed Gohan.

G - Murisam: weak, and K.O.ed from an annoyed C-17.

Z - Dium: Do we have to consider this parrot?

Z - Rylibeu: probably the weakest member of the Tournament of Power with Dr. Rota and Dium.

*** Universe 11 ***
G.O.D - Jiren: words cannot express his power. Even if Vegeta learnt a lot from Pibara techniques or if Goku became stronger during Moro’s Saga, without Ultra Instinct, he’s still stronger than them. I score him 9.5, near to Beerus.

S - Toppo: stronger as SSJ Blue and a bit more with his full power.

A - Dyspo: not able to fight against a SSJ Blue form but enough to give troubles to SSJ 2 Goku. More probably, he could handle also a SSJ3 level and a bit more, considering that he resisted from several attacks from Blue form.

C - Kahseral: a bit stronger than the companions mentioned below, but nothing special. He was beaten by Roshi without too efforts.

C - Tupper: Handle to wound Caulifla in her Broly form with a punch. Skills, teamwork or not, he surely has a lot of raw strength and resilience.

C - Kettle: Handle to wound Caulifla as Tupper.

D - K'nsi, Wevon, Zoire, Cocotte: probably they are similar in terms of power, but nothing special, as said by Beerus.

*** Black's Saga ***

- Fused Zamasu: weaker than Vegeth but far beyond stronger than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he could beat Jiren or Moro.

- Goku Black: in his Rose form, he outmatched Goku and Vegeta’s SSJ Blue form (at least for what their power was at this point). When in SSJ form, he was one step forward compared to Goku and Vegeta.

- Zamasu: stronger and more skillful than Kibito (who never trained and be stronger than Darbura/Perfect Cell). He was able to fight SSJ2 Goku’s form for a bit, and probably he could be strong at maximum like SSJ Goku during Cell Games.

- Future Zamasu: immortal and somehow stronger than Zamasu. Considering he intercepted some of Trunks and Goku’s attacks, I dare to say that maybe he can be strong as guys like Darbura.

- Future Trunks: after the potential unlock and training in Kai’s realms, his power can be considered at par of SSJ3 Goku (of this saga and not before), so it means that his power is considerable high. Without any doubt, he could not surpass Mystic Gohan but he does not mean he achieved a considerable strength.

- Shin: stronger than Piccolo (during Majin Bu’s saga), even if surely his role and fame were mainly the cause to make the Namekian scared. However I’m on the idea that he can barely confronts with guys like 2nd Cell or even C-18, Krillin and guys with some similar power level.

- Kibito: maybe strong as SSJ young Gohan after trained in the Hyperbolic Chamber.

[Nazi Cola]

Why would Ultra Instinct Goku be near Beerus? Goku can now actively use Ultra Instinct whenever he wants, but he still wanted no part of Beerus after Vegeta was stomped.

[Nistarkail]

In a scale of gods between 0 and infinite, even a 0.5 is personally considered a really massive distance. If we take Beerus and Whis, 10 and 15 is a huge difference in terms of power.

But I'm sure that U.I. Goku now can steal some of Beerus time.

[SupremeKai25]

- Fused Zamasu: weaker than Vegeth but far beyond stronger than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he could beat Jiren or Moro

At the very least he forced Vegito to go SSB (if Vegito was so much stronger, he could've ended it quickly in Base or even SS form), also I think he'd stand a chance against Jiren or Moro thanks to his multiplication technique:


Any fighter would have problems with an army of Mastered SSB+ fighters who are immortals and can perfectly regenerate. I don't think Jiren or Moro would win that easily.

Possible counterargument: "Goku could fight evenly with Fused Zamasu", honestly the story doesn't support this, since it's stated that Goku even in Completed SSB stands no chance against Fused Zamasu in a prolonged fight, hence why he used his strongest technique (Hakai) to try and end the fight quickly, which he failed to do. So Fused Zamasu >>>> Completed SSB, that's for sure.

[Hugo Boss]

This thread is the same as an existing one for DBS strength discussion.

Re: Goku only lost to Zamasu because he cheated. If we should consider their cheating abilities we might as well think that Goku using Zeno button count.

Besides I doubt that Zamasu can multiply deliberately. Anyway, Moro would outstrip the energy of this army with no problem.

[Koitsukai]

I think this is a good scale, although you seem to use anime Black Rose, because in the manga Black couldn't even deal with the God-Blue switch, much less with the full power of SSB that required Black to fuse with Zamasu.


Vegito went blue because he had to counter immortality, not because Zamasu's power was a threat. In base he was already burning him up.

And the story literally supports Perfect Blue = Zamasu. That is actually there lol. Kid Buu might defeat SS3 Goku in the long run, but that doesn't mean that in terms of power Kid Buu >>> SS3.

[SupremeKai25]

Re: Goku only lost to Zamasu because he cheated. If we should consider their cheating abilities we might as well think that Goku using Zeno button count.

Zamasu would have survived either way, in the next chapter Beerus even says that Hakai cannot kill an Immortal, and immortality is part of Fused Zamasu's abilities.

And following that logic Goku got a hit on Zamasu with the Hakai only because Zamasu was already fatigued from fighting Vegito + was damaged psychologically.

Besides I doubt that Zamasu can multiply deliberately. Anyway, Moro would outstrip the energy of this army with no problem.

Vegeta tried to blow up 2 Fused Zamases only to end up with 10 from where those 2 stood originally, then it's revealed that there are even more Fused Zamases swarming the city. So just from the bits of 2 Fused Zamases emerged an entire army. He can multiply exponentially, giving rise to an army just from the bits of 2 clones. Good luck dealing with that. No one could, that's why Zeno was required to stop Fused Zamasu, since Zeno was the only one who could erase the entire army leaving no trace whatsoever, and even then he had to destroy the entire Earth. Moro possesses no such technique.

Fused Zamasu can regenerate and multiply himself exponentially to virtually no end, that's why his potential and power are theoretically infinite. That's why Zeno was required.

Vegito went blue because he had to counter immortality, not because Zamasu's power was a threat. In base he was already burning him up.

Why Blue instead of Super Saiyan 2 or SSG if the gap between the two is that big? Seems like overkill, which is something that Vegito doesn't do. Yet here Vegito went to his strongest form, even though (as you said) Base with no senzu bean was enough to annihilate half of Fused Zamasu.

And the story literally supports Perfect Blue = Zamasu. That is actually there lol. Kid Buu might defeat SS3 Goku in the long run, but that doesn't mean that in terms of power Kid Buu >>> SS3.

Scaling isn't just about raw power levels but also about hax. It's completely valid to say Fused Zamasu > Completed SSB Goku thanks to his Immortality. Immortality is a part of his skill set after all.

[Koitsukai]

Vegito went blue because he had to counter immortality, not because Zamasu's power was a threat. In base he was already burning him up.

Why Blue instead of Super Saiyan 2 or SSG if the gap between the two is that big? Seems like overkill, which is something that Vegito doesn't do. Yet here Vegito went to his strongest form, even though (as you said) Base with no senzu bean was enough to annihilate half of Fused Zamasu.

And the story literally supports Perfect Blue = Zamasu. That is actually there lol. Kid Buu might defeat SS3 Goku in the long run, but that doesn't mean that in terms of power Kid Buu >>> SS3.

Scaling isn't just about raw power levels but also about hax. It's completely valid to say Fused Zamasu > Completed SSB Goku thanks to his Immortality. Immortality is a part of his skill set after all.

1) because if you are going to deal with something that cannot be killed, you might want to give it a shot in your strongest form?? sounds like the most sound approach, why would you half-ass it???? Specially when you have a time constraint. Overkill was what Vegito needed to deal with an immortal.

2) This thread literally has POWER LEVELS written on it. The OP is scaling the powers these people have, and Zamasu's power wasn't strong enough on its own to defeat Perfect Blue without relying on immortality. Therefore they belong in the same tier, and the story literally supports this by having probably the most even bout in DBS, and Vegeta commenting on it as well.
What you are talking about is something completely different, a thread about who can defeat who, where Hit, Moro and even UI could be placed way above their actual power level, for instance.

[SupremeKai25]

1) because if you are going to deal with something that cannot be killed, you might want to give it a shot in your strongest form?? sounds like the most sound approach, why would you half-ass it???? Specially when you have a time constraint. Overkill was what Vegito needed to deal with an immortal.

That doesn't make sense. If you know your enemy is immortal, you don't unleash your full power, because it's meaningless. You're not going to kill anyone. It would make more sense to conserve your energy so that you last longer than 10 minutes and can at least protect the weaklings for longer. How does overkill deal with an immortal?

That's the thought process of someone who is smart, so we have two options before us now:

1) Vegito is dumb, which I won't exclude;
2) Vegito thought he needed Blue to overpower Fused Zamasu.

and Zamasu's power wasn't strong enough on its own to defeat Perfect Blue without relying on immortality.

If we want to get technical we don't know how Fused Zamasu would fare against Goku if he wasn't exhausted from getting pummelled by Vegito before-hand and wasn't losing his composure.

Also well OP also thinks Fused Zamasu >>>> SSB Goku and Vegeta, which I agree with.

[Koitsukai]

1) because if you are going to deal with something that cannot be killed, you might want to give it a shot in your strongest form?? sounds like the most sound approach, why would you half-ass it???? Specially when you have a time constraint. Overkill was what Vegito needed to deal with an immortal.

That doesn't make sense. If you know your enemy is immortal, you don't unleash your full power, because it's meaningless. You're not going to kill anyone. It would make more sense to conserve your energy so that you last longer than 10 minutes and can at least protect the weaklings for longer. How does overkill deal with an immortal?

That's the thought process of someone who is smart, so we have two options before us now:

1) Vegito is dumb, which I won't exclude;
2) Vegito thought he needed Blue to overpower Fused Zamasu.

and Zamasu's power wasn't strong enough on its own to defeat Perfect Blue without relying on immortality.

If we want to get technical we don't know how Fused Zamasu would fare against Goku if he wasn't exhausted from getting pummelled by Vegito before-hand and wasn't losing his composure.

Also well OP also thinks Fused Zamasu >>>> SSB Goku and Vegeta, which I agree with.

1) What do you mean it doesn't make sense? you need to break the most unbreakable thing... why wouldn't you unleash your full power???? if it's meaningless then you might as well not try it at all. You are proposing a different approach, one that discards confrontation, protecting weaklings and running away.
It's not my interpretation, it's not the OP's, it's what it's drawn in the manga by the authors. Base Vegito was strong enough to deal serious damage, and went blue to finish him off. What the hell are we discussing? the actual facts presented by the story??? we later see Goku being more than enough to overpower or be a decent match for Zamasu... what more do you need? are you saying Vegito would also need to go blue to face Perfect Blue Goku who is without a doubt as strong as Merged Zamasu??

2) Zamasu can recover himself unless he keeps getting pummeled (like what happened with Goku that wasn't letting him recover). There was no exhaustion in Zamasu to justify the result of the fight vs Goku, it wasn't immediately after fighting Vegito like in the anime when Trunks jumped in. That's your headcanon. A lot happened between Vegito's defusing and Goku's evolution.
The story is pretty clear regarding how Goku, Zamasu and Vegito rank in power with each other, it had a one-sided fight(Vegito-Zamasu) and an incredibly even fight(Goku-Zamasu). I can't believe we are discussing the actual facts.

[SupremeKai25]

1) What do you mean it doesn't make sense? you need to break the most unbreakable thing... why wouldn't you unleash your full power???? if it's meaningless then you might as well not try it at all. You are proposing a different approach, one that discards confrontation, protecting weaklings and running away.
It's not my interpretation, it's not the OP's, it's what it's drawn in the manga by the authors. Base Vegito was strong enough to deal serious damage, and went blue to finish him off. What the hell are we discussing? the actual facts presented by the story??? we later see Goku being more than enough to overpower or be a decent match for Zamasu... what more do you need? are you saying Vegito would also need to go blue to face Perfect Blue Goku who is without a doubt as strong as Merged Zamasu??

If the thing you're up against can't break... what's the point of unleashing your full power? I have no problem admitting that Vegito didn't need SSB to fight Fused Zamasu, but in that case you have to concede that Vegito was dumb for just unleashing his powers on someone who is immortal, thus shortening his fusion time significantly and leaving the weaklings defenceless. You can't have the cake and eat it too. As I said:

1) Vegito is dumb, which I won't exclude;
2) Vegito thought he needed Blue to overpower Fused Zamasu.

2) Zamasu can recover himself unless he keeps getting pummeled (like what happened with Goku that wasn't letting him recover). There was no exhaustion in Zamasu to justify the result of the fight vs Goku, it wasn't immediately after fighting Vegito like in the anime when Trunks jumped in. That's your headcanon. A lot happened between Vegito's defusing and Goku's evolution.
The story is pretty clear regarding how Goku, Zamasu and Vegito rank in power with each other, it had a one-sided fight(Vegito-Zamasu) and an incredibly even fight(Goku-Zamasu). I can't believe we are discussing the actual facts.

The story shows Fused Zamasu losing his composure and cool after he got pummelled by Vegito, it is shown again and again that if a fighter is losing their composure and sanity then they are weaker/cannot concentrate well/cannot focus well, that's the point. Also have you forgotten how Fused Zamasu can multiply himself into an army of clones who retain the same power level as him? He was going to finish off Goku and Vegeta if Zeno didn't intervene. He's >>> SSB Goku and Vegeta, as OP said.

[Koitsukai]

1) What do you mean it doesn't make sense? you need to break the most unbreakable thing... why wouldn't you unleash your full power???? if it's meaningless then you might as well not try it at all. You are proposing a different approach, one that discards confrontation, protecting weaklings and running away.
It's not my interpretation, it's not the OP's, it's what it's drawn in the manga by the authors. Base Vegito was strong enough to deal serious damage, and went blue to finish him off. What the hell are we discussing? the actual facts presented by the story??? we later see Goku being more than enough to overpower or be a decent match for Zamasu... what more do you need? are you saying Vegito would also need to go blue to face Perfect Blue Goku who is without a doubt as strong as Merged Zamasu??

If the thing you're up against can't break... what's the point of unleashing your full power? I have no problem admitting that Vegito didn't need SSB to fight Fused Zamasu, but in that case you have to concede that Vegito was dumb for just unleashing his powers on someone who is immortal, thus shortening his fusion time significantly and leaving the weaklings defenceless. You can't have the cake and eat it too. As I said:

1) Vegito is dumb, which I won't exclude;
2) Vegito thought he needed Blue to overpower Fused Zamasu.

2) Zamasu can recover himself unless he keeps getting pummeled (like what happened with Goku that wasn't letting him recover). There was no exhaustion in Zamasu to justify the result of the fight vs Goku, it wasn't immediately after fighting Vegito like in the anime when Trunks jumped in. That's your headcanon. A lot happened between Vegito's defusing and Goku's evolution.
The story is pretty clear regarding how Goku, Zamasu and Vegito rank in power with each other, it had a one-sided fight(Vegito-Zamasu) and an incredibly even fight(Goku-Zamasu). I can't believe we are discussing the actual facts.

The story shows Fused Zamasu losing his composure and cool after he got pummelled by Vegito, it is shown again and again that if a fighter is losing their composure and sanity then they are weaker/cannot concentrate well/cannot focus well, that's the point. Also have you forgotten how Fused Zamasu can multiply himself into an army of clones who retain the same power level as him? He was going to finish off Goku and Vegeta if Zeno didn't intervene. He's >>> SSB Goku and Vegeta, as OP said.

1) the point is trying your full power to see if you can actually break it?? what's the point in fusing if you are not going to try your best while at it? he could defeat him in base, but he couldn't kill him in base, so better try it at full power. He had no idea the fusion would be shortened if he used his full power, he thought he had a full hour, so if anybody is dumb then it's Gowasu you should've thought of that before. But again, how could he know they would have so much power that the Potara would fail???
In any case, Vegito or Gowasu being dumb has nothing to do with Vegito being worlds above Zamasu in terms of power.

2) You need to re-read that chapter, then. They defuse and there are like 20 pages in the next chapter for Zamasu to easily recover his physical and mental health. He is taking his time killing the guys, what do you mean he is still exhausted?????? lol even Goku gets healed during that time, but you are saying immortal, self-recuperating Zamasu was still injured from a previous fight???
Actually, the one who made Zamasu lose his composure was Goku, not Vegito. That is even stated by Geets.

You are shifting the conversation, what's the army have to do with how strong the people in question are?? Zamasu is as strong as Perfect Blue Goku. He could not subdue him in a one-on-one fight.

[SupremeKai25]

1) the point is trying your full power to see if you can actually break it??

Immortal means Immortal, Goku and Vegeta thus Vegito knew that nothing can harm or put Zamasu down for good, only the sealing technique was effective against him, and yet they still thought it was necessary to go Blue to "try and kill him"... an immortal fighter. When they could have just used God which, on top of the massive power boost it grants, is also much more cheap in terms of ki required than Blue.

And you're still misinterpreting my argument, I'm not saying Fused Zamasu > Blue Vegito, I'm saying that Vegito looked at Fused Zamasu and thought "Yep, I need Blue to fight this guy", it's that simple. That's a fact and that's the story.

2) You need to re-read that chapter, then. They defuse and there are like 20 pages in the next chapter for Zamasu to easily recover his physical and mental health. He is taking his time killing the guys, what do you mean he is still exhausted?????? lol even Goku gets healed during that time, but you are saying immortal, self-recuperating Zamasu was still injured from a previous fight???
Actually, the one who made Zamasu lose his composure was Goku, not Vegito. That is even stated by Geets.

Reread my post instead of spamming question marks. There are 20 pages of Fused Zamasu getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that Goku and Vegeta won't surrender and acknowledge him as God, there are 20 pages in which Zamasu is getting increasingly irritated and annoyed, especially after his fight with Vegito, which are in stark contrast with how calm and relaxed and composed he was before the Vegito fight. It is a logical fact both in Dragon Ball and irl that if you are stressed and frustrated you lose focus and concentration, which will inevitably impact your power/performance too, so just because Goku fought evenly with a very stressed Zamasu doesn't mean anything.

You are shifting the conversation, what's the army have to do with how strong the people in question are?? Zamasu is as strong as Perfect Blue Goku. He could not subdue him in a one-on-one fight

You know that one of Fused Zamasu's abilities is the capability to replicate himself to an exponential amount? Which forced Goku and Vegeta to use the Zeno button to put him down?

So you already said that Immortality doesn't count when talking about Fused Zamasu's power, now his strongest ability the cloning ability doesn't count either, what's more? Do you want to place even more restrictions on him lol?

Also I'm not shifting anything, I've been mentioning Fused Zamasu's ability to replicate since the beginning.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Nice scale. I wouldn't put ToP Hit below Blue Goku and Vegeta. He looked to be about as strong as them once he got serious.

[Jack Bz]

You know that one of Fused Zamasu's abilities is the capability to replicate himself to an exponential amount? Which forced Goku and Vegeta to use the Zeno button to put him down?

So you already said that Immortality doesn't count when talking about Fused Zamasu's power, now his strongest ability the cloning ability doesn't count either, what's more? Do you want to place even more restrictions on him lol?

This is meant to be a discussion about strength, not simply who would win. I'm sure fused Zamasu could beat 100 Brolys simply by attrition because he's immortal and can clone himself if split in two, but he's definitely weaker than Broly regardless. You simply can't beat Zamasu without a sealing or OP erasure technique, but that's not relevant to strength discussions.

[Koitsukai]

1) the point is trying your full power to see if you can actually break it??

Immortal means Immortal, Goku and Vegeta thus Vegito knew that nothing can harm or put Zamasu down for good, only the sealing technique was effective against him, and yet they still thought it was necessary to go Blue to "try and kill him"... an immortal fighter. When they could have just used God which, on top of the massive power boost it grants, is also much more cheap in terms of ki required than Blue.

And you're still misinterpreting my argument, I'm not saying Fused Zamasu > Blue Vegito, I'm saying that Vegito looked at Fused Zamasu and thought "Yep, I need Blue to fight this guy", it's that simple. That's a fact and that's the story.

2) You need to re-read that chapter, then. They defuse and there are like 20 pages in the next chapter for Zamasu to easily recover his physical and mental health. He is taking his time killing the guys, what do you mean he is still exhausted?????? lol even Goku gets healed during that time, but you are saying immortal, self-recuperating Zamasu was still injured from a previous fight???
Actually, the one who made Zamasu lose his composure was Goku, not Vegito. That is even stated by Geets.

Reread my post instead of spamming question marks. There are 20 pages of Fused Zamasu getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that Goku and Vegeta won't surrender and acknowledge him as God, there are 20 pages in which Zamasu is getting increasingly irritated and annoyed, especially after his fight with Vegito, which are in stark contrast with how calm and relaxed and composed he was before the Vegito fight. It is a logical fact both in Dragon Ball and irl that if you are stressed and frustrated you lose focus and concentration, which will inevitably impact your power/performance too, so just because Goku fought evenly with a very stressed Zamasu doesn't mean anything.

You are shifting the conversation, what's the army have to do with how strong the people in question are?? Zamasu is as strong as Perfect Blue Goku. He could not subdue him in a one-on-one fight

You know that one of Fused Zamasu's abilities is the capability to replicate himself to an exponential amount? Which forced Goku and Vegeta to use the Zeno button to put him down?

So you already said that Immortality doesn't count when talking about Fused Zamasu's power, now his strongest ability the cloning ability doesn't count either, what's more? Do you want to place even more restrictions on him lol?

Also I'm not shifting anything, I've been mentioning Fused Zamasu's ability to replicate since the beginning.

1) He literally says he has no intention of extending the fight any longer, that's why he is going blue, because he wants to finish it as soon as possible. He destroyed Zamasu in base before eating a senzu, and he needs blue because Zamasu is immortal, not because he is strong enough that SSG wouldn't have cut it. Blue is stronger than God, therefore a blue KHH would be more devastating. Why are you putting (your) words in his mouth replacing what he actually said?

2) Zamasu is literally torturing and playing with them after they defuse, he stands on top of Vegeta and starts breaking his teeth. Are you actually saying that Zamasu is exhausted and weaker due to torturing Vegeta?? because they rather get pummeled than call him a god? that's what made him weaker?
Before, you said it was due to Vegito's beating, and now it's because they won't acknowledge him as a god and that frustated him?
This argument of yours fits like a glove for the Goku vs Zamasu fight, where he clearly was frustated and exhausted and his body couldn't regenerate fast enough.

3) If it were an ability, he would've used it against Vegito, his clones are a result of his body getting cut in half, not a technique. That is the immortality kicking in, you "kill" him and that's what you get. And it's not that immortality doesn't count, it's that it has nothing to do with strength, if it did, he would've beaten Blue Goku.

Similar to Piccolo vs 17. They were even but 17 would've won due to infinite stamina... but in power there were the same, and everybody agrees they were equally strong even though 17 was going to win eventually. Even 17 said so.
We are not talking about who would beat who or who has the best technique, we are talking about who's stronge, and Zamasu's power rivals Blue Goku's.

I'm ok with debating different interpretations of certain events but I'm baffled when people deny what actually happened.

[Thani]

To be fair, Black couldn't deal with the God-Blue fusion mostly because Vegeta trashed him enough that understanding how to deal with it wouldn't matter anymore - as in, Black was beaten so much before understanding it that his power probably dropped too much for him to counter it anymore. We know it was never shown, but Rosé was merely Black's SSGSS, so it had to have the same weakness. Black's power dropped because of the form's huge "mana burn".

Let's also not forget that Manga!Zamasu was weaker than Future Trunks (who never got a power up in the manga). Such a fusee would not give much in terms of raw power - the same thing was implied with manga!Kefla as well. Kefla was all of Kale's powers plus Caulifla's fighting skills. In that sense, you can argue that M. Zamasu was all of Black's powers with F. Zamasu's immortality, with the bonus of, being the same person, he could move better.

Plus, it's been said many times that Completed Blue is, essentially, Super Saiyan Blue's full power being used 100% of the time, without dropping. Black, in his Rosé form, was already stronger than Vegeta in Blue. There's no reason why his own "Completed Super Saiyan Rosé" wouldn't be at least equal to their own, since it's all SSGSS. Hence, as God Zamas, who never dropped in power because of his immortality, could use the full power of Rosé with reckless abandon.

Otherwise a potara fusion involving Black shouldn't be matched by Goku going Completed Blue. Black alone should be able to match Goku with his own Completed Rosé, had he unlocked it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

As Trunks said, Goku and Zamasu were matched. Zamasu had the advantage of immortality (which recovered him from his wounds and restored his energy, he was not weaker after facing Vegetto, we saw him in perfect condition trashing Goku and Vegeta for almost the entire CH 24) while Goku's body was being damaged by the use of CSSB. It is quite clear that in terms of power they were the same.

As for Vegetto, he said that he would erase Zamasu without leaving any trace and that there would be no time for him to regenerate, so it seems to me that he didn't necessarily use SSB because he needed it to overpower / be stronger than Zamasu, but in an attempt to defeat him as quickly as possible. I don't think that base Vegetto would defeat Zamasu, but it is possible that SSG would be enough.

And about God-Blue, Black was indeed stronger than incomplete SSB Goku / Vegeta. We saw this when even after Vegeta had eaten a senzu and recovered his energy, he was still being defeated by SSJ Black (not even SSJ Rosé). The point is that God-Blue's gimmick not only maximized Vegeta's power, but he was also stronger after training on RoSaT. That's why SSG Vegeta was able to keep up with Black's movements (this strategy didn't work against Merged Zamasu because SSG Vegeta couldn't even keep up with his speed)

[Nistarkail]

Well, I took some time to read everything but even if the main object of discussion is basically SSJ Blue VS Zamasu, it seems that some points are really interesting.

2) This thread literally has POWER LEVELS written on it. The OP is scaling the powers these people have, and Zamasu's power wasn't strong enough on its own to defeat Perfect Blue without relying on immortality. Therefore they belong in the same tier, and the story literally supports this by having probably the most even bout in DBS, and Vegeta commenting on it as well.
What you are talking about is something completely different, a thread about who can defeat who, where Hit, Moro and even UI could be placed way above their actual power level, for instance.

The main topic is in fact related to estimation in terms of quantity. The fact that DBS is going sometimes against its most important factor is another thing to deal (for instance Muten VS Jiren or Kaserhal) and not the main point of this thread.

At the very least he forced Vegito to go SSB (if Vegito was so much stronger, he could've ended it quickly in Base or even SS form), also I think he'd stand a chance against Jiren or Moro thanks to his multiplication technique

The author choice was to impress the reader making appear a so strong character only in one special occasion, and even if Zamasu uses this dangerous technique, SSJ Blue Vegeth is however far superior.

Surely fused Zamasu can give a lot of hard time to Moro or Jiren but both of them rely on skills where Goku has to use a technique owned by the angels, a.k.a. the Ultra-Instinct. It's a plot choice but at the same time the confirm the gap among these three guys.

Nice scale. I wouldn't put ToP Hit below Blue Goku and Vegeta. He looked to be about as strong as them once he got serious.

Maybe if we can take Goku or Vegeta during the T.O.P. (at least a bit), but now no. I think that Hit can be spare some good time but not too much. He relies mainly on his space-time combos but his stamina drops considerably down.

[Thani]

And about God-Blue, Black was indeed stronger than incomplete SSB Goku / Vegeta. We saw this when even after Vegeta had eaten a senzu and recovered his energy, he was still being defeated by SSJ Black (not even SSJ Rosé). The point is that God-Blue's gimmick not only maximized Vegeta's power, but he was also stronger after training on RoSaT. That's why SSG Vegeta was able to keep up with Black's movements (this strategy didn't work against Merged Zamasu because SSG Vegeta couldn't even keep up with his speed)

It's worth mentioning that even after Black went Rosé, Vegeta still managed to keep up for a while. Being fair, Goku stated that Vegeta was doing the change multiple times, so it's also possible that whenever he needed to maximize SSB to counter Black, he did the change for a split second - be it for dodging, striking or blocking.