The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by xm0c » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:18 pm

I've always kind of had a problem with Super, particularly with the two most recent arcs, but I've never been able to articulate why. Then while I was l was listening to the Team Four Star review of the Super manga arcs, and it hit me: Most of the Super arcs kinda feel the same in their usage of Goku and Vegeta, to me at least.

The basic formula is: Goku fights the main antagonist but loses. Vegeta fights and looks dominant (sometimes with a new power) but ultimately doesn't win. Somewhere in there other characters fight but don't even come close to beating the main antagonist. Goku comes back to try again (usually with some kind of new power), and usually doesn't get a definitive win but the Earth ends up safe.

You can say I am oversimplifying the stories of Super, but I think that sums up the vast majority of fights in Super, both manga and anime. Sometimes events are in a different order, but those 4 elements are in pretty much every arc. And it all began with Battle of Gods.

Battle of Gods: Goku loses to Beerus>The other fighters in the Dragon Team try but get beaten up by Beerus>Vegeta gets his enraged power up and looks strong for a minute but still loses to Beerus>Goku gets the Super Saiyan God transformation but still can't beat Beerus, but the Earth ends up being safe.

Resurrection F: Gohan gets beaten up by Freeza>Goku shows up with the new Super Saiyan Blue transformation but still gets hurt during the fight with Freeza>Vegeta shows off his new transformation and looks dominant but doesn't win because Freeza blows up the planet>Goku returns to the fight to kill Freeza.

Universe 6: Goku fights the Universe 6 team but loses because of the poison>Piccolo fights Frost but doesn't win>Vegeta looks dominant against Universe 6 but doesn't win against Hit>Goku returns to the fight (and in the anime uses a new transformation) but still doesn't win against Hit, but the Earth ends up being safe.

Future Trunks and Universal Survival: I'll be honest there are so many different fights in these arcs across the anime and manga, I can't really keep track of them. If anyone knows if they follow the formula, please let me know.

Broly: Vegeta fights and looks dominant against Broly, but still loses>Goku fights Broly but doesn't win>Freeza is forced to fight and gets beaten up hard by Broly>Goku and Vegeta return to the fight as Gogeta and win but they don't manage the kill Broly.

Galactic Patrol Prisoner: This one sticks out because so many of the above elements are repeated. Vegeta looks dominant against Moro but still loses>Goku tries to fight but loses>The Grand Supreme Kai tries to fight but loses>The heroes escape.
Goku fights Moro with his Ultra Instinct Sign ability but can't win>Vegeta looks dominant with his fission ability but still loses>Merus tries but disappears before he can bear Moro>Goku finally masters Ultra Instinct, but still can't win so he needs the help of the others to save the day.

Granolah the Survivor: Admittedly, this arc is still going but it definitely has a couple of the elements. Goku fights Granolah but loses>Vegeta looks dominant with his new Ultra Ego, but still loses>Gas fights Granolah.

Dragon Ball Z definitely had a problematic formula with Goku (For some reason can't fight>Fights>repeat), but with Super it sticks out so much more, because at the very least other characters are around to do something. Super is usually just Goku and Vegeta, with an occasional guest star party member. I'm not pointing this out to dissuade someone from liking Super, I'm just pointing out that it seems to have developed a formula for how the arcs play out.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:39 pm

That's pretty much the formula I keep complaining about Dragon Ball Super. And from the little I see, based solely on images people post and comments I read, Toyotaro keeps following the same structure in his sagas, one of the reasons why I don't bother following the manga more closely.

It doesn't take a lot of time to notice that "pattern", and if I am anything to go by, you don't even need to follow it closely to notice it either. The sagas so far have been presenting a clear and excessive structure that keeps repeating itself over and over. It's one of my main criticism of this modern series. I'd be willing to try to ignore if the other things happening were useful to something (besides a bunch of other factors), but as you pointed out, what good is to give other characters some spotlight if, in the end, we'd still be in square one and they won't do much? (Vegeta still can't even beat Freeza or any main antagonist, for that matter).

An example of me be willing to ignore is Xenoverse 2's Universe 6 saga. They still rely on Goku and Vegeta, yes, Vegeta still demands Piccolo to simply forfeit the battle, yes, however... Not before Piccolo being the one to ring out Botamo and putting up a good fight against Frost and Cabba. He was useful, not wasted as it is the case in the series for some reason. This execution is so much better that I'd be even willing to watch the whole thing, if they knew how to handle the characters, like some freaking video game developers do. It's like, changing status quo would mean the end of the world or something. These are very formulaic sagas that can't sustain themselves with forgettable characters and boring situations.

I can only wonder how long it will take for more people to realize that and, above all else, get tired of it. And let those in charge know we are tired of the same thing happening again and again.
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:27 pm

I don't exactly disagree with the topic premise, in a general way, but I also don't entirely agree.

There are some beats here and there that show up across arcs in a general sense. Some of it isn't even the way Goku and Vegeta specifically are used; it's just basic arc construction, showcasing the opposition (after all, what's the point of overcoming an easy foe who has no presence in the arc?), or pushing a twist to escalate the combat further. And most fights are, in the most general sense, 'win or lose', so picking out a 'formula' from something that general in a fighting manga does seem to oversimplify things - or, at least, it doesn't put its finger on where a real 'formula' or touchstone for the series might be.

The way I see it, the only thing that features pervasively enough across arcs to warrant the term 'formula' (in the manga, anyway) is the story pushing the line that Goku and Vegeta are stronger together than they are apart, despite their natural inclination to resist that conclusion and act accordingly.

The story pushing this line is the thing that really stands behind some repeated beats like the pair taking on the main foe singly and inadvertently building the power of a 'strong-but-not-that-strong' foe into something truly formidable for further confrontation later down the line in the arc, which in turn leads to early defeats. If you're constructing an arc about combat against a formidable opponent that also pushes a line that Goku and Vegeta should work together more often, then it's unlikely you'll be getting a decisive early victory from the heroes, or much in that vein from the supporting cast, and you'll see repeated attempts come up short before the victory/resolution comes about (punishing them for not having worked together early on, but giving them more chances later).

If you want to push that particular message and stay true to Goku and Vegeta's characters as they have been established to date and build an arc that tells a full story with the combat that ensues, then Dragon Ball's schtick can only be diversified so far to contain that. The main way you see the diversity is in the specific ways the throughline manifests itself across the arcs (and also the different twists given to things that might be seen as repetitious when described in the most general sense). Personally, I find the different ways that it's presented across arcs to be one of the more enjoyable facets of Dragon Ball Super, but if you're not so into the throughline, I can see how the appeal of the things that go with it might pall.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:56 pm

Goku and Vegeta failed multiple times against Zamasu, Trunks stepped in to save the day, and caused armageddon for his entire timeline. But hey, at least Goku's timeline was safe!

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by BWri » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:49 pm

xm0c wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:18 pm The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super
You've nicely epitomized why Super ultimately doesn't work for me. It's too neat for my liking. I've always liked that Goku and co. aren't perfect and that they barely scrape by even after many mistakes and humiliating defeats.

What I don't like now is how the stakes are super high and yet, despite that and the many many many errors and foolish judgements on the part of the "heroes" how it always ends up nice and neat by the end of the arc to return things to the same status quo as before.

It would actually be infinitely more interesting in almost all those situations if they were faced with the consequences of their failures (such as having to live in U6 for a stretch after losing to Hit thanks to Vegeta's indulgences and Goku's forfeiture), but the narrative always course corrects around them so that the world goes back to the status quo.

I think the multiple layers of Deus Ex Machina have ultimately hurt the franchise. On top of the 2 sets of Dragon Balls from the original manga, we now have another on Cereal along with the Super Dragon Balls, then on top of that Angels, Gods, and Zeno. All the major gods have been actively used now to shield the protagonists from the repercussions of their failures which has resulted in scenarios that just aren't as interesting as the original run of the anime and manga.
Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:39 pm An example of me be willing to ignore is Xenoverse 2's Universe 6 saga. They still rely on Goku and Vegeta, yes, Vegeta still demands Piccolo to simply forfeit the battle, yes, however... Not before Piccolo being the one to ring out Botamo and putting up a good fight against Frost and Cabba. He was useful, not wasted as it is the case in the series for some reason. This execution is so much better that I'd be even willing to watch the whole thing, if they knew how to handle the characters, like some freaking video game developers do. It's like, changing status quo would mean the end of the world or something. These are very formulaic sagas that can't sustain themselves with forgettable characters and boring situations.
Yeah, this simple change kicked so much ass and made for a more dynamic scenario. We already know Goku and Vegeta are the top dogs, so pretending that they're bothered by these fights despite there being no tension never made sense to me. It's why I like the Moro arc, despite its many problems and the anime's version of the Tournament of Power.

I can only wonder how long it will take for more people to realize that and, above all else, get tired of it. And let those in charge know we are tired of the same thing happening again and again.
I think each arc awakens more people to this but I also think a lot of people don't mind the formula.
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:12 pm

If a lot of people don't mind the formula, then it is what it is, it's going to be this way which is a huge unfortunate for the series itself and for those who'd want something new out of it (at least we have the games, though).
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Shinsa » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:10 pm

Can't agree more with you!

Modern Dragonball has been very safe and not doing anything bold but rehash or make up new silly under baked concepts. In my opinion DB doesn't need a multiverse, new transformations or God ki but it needs to build out its characters and world. What happens after to the world EoZ? If GT is officially written out then what happens to Goten/Trucks/Pan, Do Saiyans age out and how would Goku cope with that, Does Vegeta finally decide to be King and try to restore Saiyan culture? Who are the next generation of fighters that Goku and gang must pass onto?
The series has a lot of great unexplained or fleshed out ideas that could have been explored more given more depth or mystery.

Dragonball is a 30 plus old series and I feel the reason why it hasn't evolved is because the series hasn't matured (i dont mean mature as in it being violent, overly serious and moody) or adapted to modern story telling improving Toriyama's own story telling flaws.

I could be wrong, I'm older and don't really follow much anime now a days as I barely have any time....however DB is one that is important to me and I don't see it get the recognition or popularity from people my own age or younger like it was in the 90s. People usually give me the critique of "oh its Dragonball what do you expect...?" or "I don't expect good story telling from DB and just expect fights."

I guess if that's what people like then good on them but I'd like something more from the series.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:36 am

I used to say the Goku and Vegeta show issue which I still honestly believe, but I feel I could live with that if they just stopped being together. What made it so cool in the Boo saga was they were NEVER together. This was a first and it was fun an interesting. It was legit a good time as this hadn't been played out yet. Now after all this time it is extremely tiring. At this point I care less that they get all the screen time, but more it's always them together. Focus on Goku and/or Vegeta whatever, just have them do other things. Have an A and B plot that can eventually converge. Or have them pair up with different old or new characters. Something that is not the tired Goku Vegeta dynamic. I'd even take Goku and Goten/Vegeta and Trunks or maybe they switch it up and trade sons who are with them for a plotline. That is how desperate I am to not have this same damn pair glued together. At least that gives something that's not tired and done to death. The moro arc at least for a while had the biggest breath of fresh air when they both did two different training things with 2 different people.
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:51 am

Dragon Ball's worst enemy is Dragon Ball itself. One of things I really appreciate about One PIece (currently reading the manga for the first after having lost interest in the anime, and its like reading an entirely new story), is how damn flexible that series can be. Oda has pretty much guarantee that he can pretty much do whatever he wants with the story, and it'll work within the rules he's established.

Dragon Ball, or more importantly Super, is so damn rigid in comparison. It's the Goku and Vegeta show through and through. And because of that, every fight largely feels the same. It becomes less about story structure, and more about fan service, about having cool moments so people can enjoy their favorite characters. And that in itself isn't a bad thing, but for a groundbreaking show like DBZ, its an issue. I agree with others have said: DBZ is not the show that people tend to parody on the internet. It is a character-driven soap opera with fights in the middle. That's why something like the Namek saga, which is arguably the heights of Toriyama's abilities as a story teller, is so damn effective. There's nothing really here in Super (both the anime and unfortunately the manga) because they rely too much on Z as a foundation to really strike out on their own.

I get the impression that because Dragon Ball is such an institution that there's an unwillingness to really change up the storytelling.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by nato25 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:00 pm

Will be nice to see how super hero shakes this up.

One of the most memorable moments from the manga for me was vegeta splitting off on his own to Yardrat, just for the change of pace it brought. Even if down the line the formula was followed.

The problem is how powerful they've made Goku and Vegeta. They can't introduce any one less powerful than them because then it's like why can't Vegeta or Goku just step in. And as the main characters it's much harder to explain them away unlike Beerus.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:44 pm

nato25 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:00 pm Will be nice to see how super hero shakes this up.
It won't. Considering everything points to this being a more comedic adventure than usual, as well as the fact that its in a vaguish point during EoZ, we're probably not going to see much of anything that'll change the canon.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by xm0c » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:16 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:44 pm
nato25 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:00 pm Will be nice to see how super hero shakes this up.
It won't. Considering everything points to this being a more comedic adventure than usual, as well as the fact that its in a vaguish point during EoZ, we're probably not going to see much of anything that'll change the canon.
At the very least, the trailers make it look like Goku and Vegeta won't be playing a major role. That fact alone automatically shakes it up.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by nato25 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:45 pm

Yep and with a movie that seems to be going for a lighter tone, this is the best chance we have to escape it haha.

Goku and Vegeta training with broly in a short scene early on is all I need of them in this one honestly.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Mac » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:07 pm

Agreed, the endless Goku/Vegeta in every single arc was worn out it's welcome for me. There's a large cast that we basically never see anymore because of they hog the spotlight.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:28 am

Mac wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:07 pm Agreed, the endless Goku/Vegeta in every single arc was worn out it's welcome for me. There's a large cast that we basically never see anymore because of they hog the spotlight.
Part of that problem is the power creep. The saiyans are so fucking over powered that it isn't reasonable for someone like Krillin or Tien to suddenly be able to match Goku and Vegeta. And I don' t want to only see these characters appear whenever there's a bunch of nameless mooks to be dispatched.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Shinsa » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:33 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:28 am
Mac wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:07 pm Agreed, the endless Goku/Vegeta in every single arc was worn out it's welcome for me. There's a large cast that we basically never see anymore because of they hog the spotlight.
Part of that problem is the power creep. The saiyans are so fucking over powered that it isn't reasonable for someone like Krillin or Tien to suddenly be able to match Goku and Vegeta. And I don' t want to only see these characters appear whenever there's a bunch of nameless mooks to be dispatched.
That's why I think new characters are needed and a new protagonist (either it being an already established character or new). A passing of the torch if the writers can't think or do anything to make Goku and Vegeta interesting. But as I stated above I do think there are many interesting and new stages of life Goku/Vegeta can be in.... the creators are just to scared or not willing to do anything risky with its writing specially after GT. Why do the hard thing to develop character when you can just re-colour hair blue and recycle old tropes....?

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:15 pm

I don't think that's the real issue with Super because it's just a slight variation of Z's own formula. Goku gets taken out of the game > Other Z Fighters do their thing but don't really get close to winning > Goku comes back and finishes the game, but with a cost. The very bit of Vegeta getting his spot and being terribly humiliated even got incorporated after he joined the main cast in the Freeza Saga.

The real issue is that the end of the saga often carried real consequences to the world around. By the end of each Saga in Z, the status quo had changed so much the main characters are now irrecognizable. With Super it took them several sagas for them to do that, and it's always only in the form of transformations: SSJG, SSJB and then UI. You can see the sagas without new forms are the most irrelevants, and unlike in Z the characters introduced in most sagas are shelved.
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:38 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:15 pm I don't think that's the real issue with Super because it's just a slight variation of Z's own formula. Goku gets taken out of the game > Other Z Fighters do their thing but don't really get close to winning > Goku comes back and finishes the game, but with a cost. The very bit of Vegeta getting his spot and being terribly humiliated even got incorporated after he joined the main cast in the Freeza Saga.

The real issue is that the end of the saga often carried real consequences to the world around. By the end of each Saga in Z, the status quo had changed so much the main characters are now irrecognizable. With Super it took them several sagas for them to do that, and it's always only in the form of transformations: SSJG, SSJB and then UI. You can see the sagas without new forms are the most irrelevants, and unlike in Z the characters introduced in most sagas are shelved.
But heres' the thing...the reason why early DBZ works, even though it follows a similar pattern, is that it significantly changes the status quo and forces other characters to step up. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs are the best DBZ arcs because of this. Without Goku, it means less powerful characters like Krillin and Gohan have to think outside the box to try to take on more powerful opponents. The Freeza saga in particular changes up the status quo by making things a "cat and mouse" chase in which much weaker characters need to outmaneuver significantly stronger characters.

None of that is apparent in Super. It's just Goku and Vegeta fight strong bad guy...maybe Gohan and Piccolo gets to fight nameless bad guys--and that's about it.

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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:40 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:38 pm But heres' the thing...the reason why early DBZ works, even though it follows a similar pattern, is that it significantly changes the status quo and forces other characters to step up. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs are the best DBZ arcs because of this. Without Goku, it means less powerful characters like Krillin and Gohan have to think outside the box to try to take on more powerful opponents. The Freeza saga in particular changes up the status quo by making things a "cat and mouse" chase in which much weaker characters need to outmaneuver significantly stronger characters.

None of that is apparent in Super. It's just Goku and Vegeta fight strong bad guy...maybe Gohan and Piccolo gets to fight nameless bad guys--and that's about it.
My thoughts exactly. Each saga had a different approach while Goku was gone: The Saiyan Saga focuses on Gohan and Piccolo's character developments, Freeza had the cat and mouse game and the Cell Saga would shift the focus between different characters. The Boo Saga is a bit of a mess, but even if he's around Goku avoids fighting most of the time.

Another thing that helped with Z was Gohan's growth. Not just character growth, but him literally growing up: It helped give a sensation of time passing and solidifying the constant status quo changes in each saga. Meanwhile, Super... forgot Marron shouldn't be a toddler anymore.
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Re: The Goku and Vegeta Formula in Super

Post by Geraldo » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:48 am

When Super was first announced in April of 2015, I was led astray that it will be giving the Non-Saiyans some time to shine as opposed to DBZ's biggest flaw. I was surely wrong.
I want to drop out of the franchise because of this "Goku and Vegeta show" format. It's boring af.

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