Kai Episode 47 (7 March 2010)

[SSVegetto]

That, and many people think it is supposed to be some "epic moment of badassery" when it definitely is not...
You can think it is whatever you want to. If you think someone being infuriated by the loss of their best friend being murdered right in front of them is the epitome of badass, then go right ahead. What I am saying however, is that when it comes to music scoring, a scene like that doesn't need some super exciting rock track. That would be like playing Yeah! Break! Care! Break! when Piccolo sacrifices himself for Gohan. You can like it all you want, but that doesn't make it fitting or appropriate given the circumstances. You can like anything you want or think anything would be appropriate, but I'm speaking strictly in terms of professionalism.

You could have said it like that. But instead you still said it like this

That, and many people think it is supposed to be some "epic moment of badassery" when it definitely is not...

Also, you are digging yourself into a hole by claiming that your opinion is a fact by stating that it's not suppose to be bad ass because Gohan got killed. How about someone that looks at that scene as badass as a whole, because they thought it was badass to see Goku turn into a Super Saiyan?

Even if they did think that seen was really bad ass just because Gohan died. That still is a valid opinion. And you saying it is fact that moment is not suppose to be bad ass. Is making your opinion into a fact. When it's not. It's your opinion.

Just because they thought the scene was bad ass doesn't imply that they took pleasure in seeing Gohan dying. But anyways, again, that's not the point. Badass is just a view point or an opinion, which can't be stated as a fact. Which you are still clearly clinging on to.

[Metalwario64]

You really like to make something out of nothing don't you?

I'm done here... I feel like I'm arguing politics again, but this session (thread) is closed. I had it.

[penguintruth]

Wait, what are we arguing about now?

[SSVegetto]

You really like to make something out of nothing don't you?

I'm done here... I feel like I'm arguing politics again, but this session (thread) is closed. I had it.

So, unfortunately, I'm suppose to let you have the last reply and have your say. Because you say I'm done here. Oh excuse me, I wont reply anymore. *Me rolls eyes.

It's not really something out of nothing. I mean if it was. All you would say is that yeah, that's not really fact. It's just an opinion and I shouldn't have said it that way.

[Metalwario64]

Wait, what are we arguing about now?

I'm not arguing about anything at this point, because it would be such a shame to get an episode discussion thread unnecessarily locked.

[SSVegetto]

Wait, what are we arguing about now?

I'm not arguing about anything at this point, because it would be such a shame to get an episode discussion thread unnecessarily locked.

Fine, fair enough, I don't want to argue about it anymore either.

[Gaffer Tape]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but does anyone else think that the music playing after Piccolo gets shot sounds quite a bit like the Corleone Waltz from The Godfather films?

[Shiyonasan]

I actually liked pretty much how Kai handled the scene. *Thumbs up!*

I'm pretty much the same way. It wasn't too overly spectacular, but I don't think it needed to be. If I remember correctly, Z was the same way.

Also, I don't know if any of you guys saw this, but here's what the scene would've been like with Chou ☆ Super Dragon Soul:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLVTIn8M ... re=related

[Kaboom]

I liked how they implemented the silence for the first half of it. The track they ended up using did fit pretty well, too. I would have preferred something a little more unique and "epic," so to speak, but this worked okay, too.

[kenisu3000]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but does anyone else think that the music playing after Piccolo gets shot sounds quite a bit like the Corleone Waltz from The Godfather films?

Oh yes. People have been saying that since the piece ("A Disastrous Spectacle") was first used back in episode 13.

[Gaffer Tape]

Ah, I see. That explains it. That was around the time I stopped following Kai. Glad I'm not going crazy at least.

[Flamzeron]

I'm surprised they haven't switched the OP and ED songs yet. It seemed to me, for the ED at least, that they would switch the songs after Goku went SS1. I guess not.

I wonder how DBKai will go without the Garlic Jr. arc. I'm glad that we will probably get to see Trunks pretty soon, but it's going to feel weird skipping over said arc, even though it's filler.

[DemonRin]

I think if we see a new Opening/Ending, it'll be at the start of the Cell and/or Boo arc.

Also, just saw, thought the SS transformation sequence was well done!

[Amigo Ten]

Just going off of what's happened so far, I'm guessing we'll get a partially new OP with the various androids for most of Cell arc, and then towards the end we'll get a Cell Games one with Gohan and Cell.

Also, I'm liking Freeza more. For me, he only really started to stand out as a character around this time. Before he's just the usual arrogant guy and stuff. But when he realises some might really pose a threat is when I like him, because he's genuinely angry and shocked that someone might even come close to matching him. I know pretty much every villain is like this, but I only really feel it with Freeza. It's like it's a threat to his very identity. That losing or not being the strongest by a mile would somehow mean he wasn't himself anymore. I love that about him.

[VegettoEX]

I haven't read anyone else's comments, so forgive me if I repeat things or cover items that have already been covered and no-one else wants to hear about. I wanted to jump into this completely fresh. I was going to include some screen shots and audio clips to complement what I have to say, but it's more effort than I'm willing to give this garbage. (EDIT: I've tossed in a couple things since first posting)

This was the first episode I've watched since 17, actually. I have spot-checked a few things here and there (like the Ginyu-Tokusentai arrival and its insert song), but... that's about it.

LIKED:

• Musical Cues: For many of the scenes, the music was implemented very similarly to how it was originally done in "Z", which really clinches the mood. For example, the ominous music stops the instant Piccolo gets hit with Freeza's beam and falls to the ground -- both in "Z" and "Kai". Whether they paid attention to the original scene or simply interpreted the underlying footage the same way as before is irrelevant; they pulled it off really well.
• Ryusei Nakao... for the most part: Overall, he was pretty great. Him struggling to hold back the Genki-Dama with his crazy noises was spot-on to the original version and extremely convincing. Unfortunately... read below.
• No Ginyu Fighting (Kaio's Planet): Hurray! What a mood-killer in the original...
• No Vocal Insert Song: "The scene" didn't need it (any vocal song, not one in particular), and anyone that thinks it did does not understand the mood and tone. Whether you liked the specific BGM they used or not is another discussion to be had, but it was the right direction to go in.

DISLIKED:

• Actual Music Choices: Yamamoto's score is killing me. Ignoring what the original score was like for "this episode" (well, "these episodes"), I feel like he's relying on one little motif for the majority of the score, and it's just intolerable at this point. Everything sounds the same; it's so cliché to say something like that, but it's true. There is such little diversity in what I heard this episode. Granted, a lot of the episode was SILENT... which was great, both because I think his score is painfully mediocre, and because the mood demanded it.
• Voice Acting: Gohan's "P-P... Piccolo-san!" (after the Freeza beam) was unjustifiably flat, and Nozawa consistently disappointed me with her Gohan this episode. Freeza's quote after shooting Piccolo was nowhere near the tone it should have been; the point is that he's absolutely lost his temper, and he just haughtily delivers it over here in "Kai" like it's 20 episodes prior (I've spoken about this line many times on the podcast, and how the original "Z" delivery is one of the best showcases of his talent); even ignoring the original "Z" performance, the "Kai" performance just misses the mark entirely (--> LISTEN FOR YOURSELF [MP3] <--). Furthermore, the quickly-paced editing is necessitating some of the line deliveries getting faster and faster, which gives the actors less time to really sell it to me.
• Redrawn Scenes: When you redraw scenes that are poorly-drawn/animated in the first place, it only makes it worse. The hand-drawn craft from 20 years prior (combined with a little bit of film softness) at least somewhat covers up the flaws; a modern, flat tracing over-top that looks absolutely ridiculous.
  
• Animation Transitions: The finale to the episode with the NEW gold-glowing face shot / cut away to Freeza / cut back to OLD yellow-glowing face shot is a perfect reminder of just how inconsistent and jarring the entire production of "Kai" is. It's impossible to not notice this stuff, and it takes you out of the mood to an insane degree. It was also disgustingly obvious how they were redrawing and/or significantly cleaning-up scenes of Gohan and Kuririn (near the beginning of the episode)... until the "camera" backs up to also show crashing waves and rocks... where they don't do a darn thing with the footage. It's glaringly terrible.
• Underwhelming: Perhaps it's just a matter of seeing the footage so many times, but Goku's actual SSJ transformation is just worse and worse every time I see it. Cutting even just a few frames here and there over in "Kai" makes it lose even more of what it's already lacking. I feel nothing from this scene. Absolutely nothing. At least the original "Z" version with the great BGM from DBZ movie 1 helps sell it.

In a nutshell, this episode confirmed everything I've been thinking about "Kai" -- it's something I have zero interest in. Trust me when I say it's a blow to my heart to say that about something DragonBall-related.

Wake me up when the next domestic Dragon Box is out.

[Craddle]

[*]Animation Transitions: The finale to the episode with the NEW gold-glowing face shot / cut away to Freeza / cut back to OLD yellow-glowing face shot is a perfect reminder of just how inconsistent and jarring the entire production of "Kai" is.

This bothered me the most about the episode. It wouldn't have been AS bad if they were consistent, by giving us the gold version all the way through. Didn't the editors see this and stop to think what the audience would think when they saw it this way?

I will have to agree with you on your thoughts on Kai in general as well. I can however force myself to watch it once either raw or subbed and that's it. Unlike the original series, I can watch hundreds of times and still enjoy it. I'm still looking forward to see how FUNimation handles the new dub. I'm still going to buy the Blu-Ray release to add it to my collection but, the love for this is just not there for me.

Wake me up when the next domestic Dragon Box is out.

I LOL'd hard after reading your post then reading this sentence.

[fps_anth]

What Mike said.

I didn't think the music used for the SSJ transformation scene was that bad (no insert song was neccesary). It was clearly inferior to it's Z iteration, but the horrible animation was what killed the episode for me. I mean, are these guys that lazy that they can't even make those few scenes at least on par with the video from 20 years ago? Jesus.

[sangofe]

I just watched the SSJ scene and I have to agree the music really didn't make the cut compared to DBZ, however, I liked that Goku's scream was more high pitched than what it was in Zeta, it just sounded more like himself.

[Tsukento]

But that's the point. Goku's scream is supposed to sound like a roar as he changes (and it did in both). The Super Saiyan state during the Freeza saga is a complete shift in personality for Goku.

I was disappointed in the Super Saiyan transformation scene for the music department, but not because of Super Dragon Soul. Simply because there's very little variety and there's no real ominous music in Kai that we haven't God knows how many times before that's still not completely fitting of the scene.

Also still bugged by how Freeza laughs, yet the animation where after lifting Kuririn in the air looks more like he's talking.

[kenisu3000]

Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to watch the rest of Kai (I've got a BGM documentation to do, after all!), but that doesn't change the fact that every time I watch it, I keep getting "illegitimate child" vibes from it.
Another thing I missed sorely was that incredible shot where the water splashes Kuririn's and Gohan's faces and the colors fade in to make it look like a painting. I mean, the "painting" effect happens a lot throughout the series, but this is my favorite, favorite one.
I realize they couldn't exactly have kept it, since through all the cutting, this scene didn't occur at the end of the episode, but I still missed it!

Also still bugged by how Freeza laughs, yet the animation where after lifting Kuririn in the air looks more like he's talking.

This shot has always intrigued me, and I have to wonder if they originally animated it with the idea that he was going to say the line from the manga: "I may take on damage, but you'll never be rid of me!" but when it came time for the voice recording, they decided a laugh would be better suited to the situation.