MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:17 am

Well, he's just covering the differences of the anime and manga I believe, so it can't be too long for the earlier arcs I assume.

Anyway, for Gaffer Tape, I wanna this into discussion, mainly because the thread will obviously get locked soon.

1.) I always thought of you as someone who would like Tao Pai Pai, but you didn't list him.
2.) I agree that Vegeta and Yamucha were a lot more interesting as villains, shacking up with Blooma is a no-no for baddies!
3.) Thoughts on Tenshinhan? I find him the most boring big bad. Toriyama should have made Chaozu the big bad.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:22 am

Tenshinhan wasn't the big bad, Crane Hermit was. He's the one who was in charge, the one who had a history with one of the protagonists, and the one who wanted to murder people. Tenshinhan was merely a huge asshole who happened to be competing against the protagonists in an athletic competition, like every 80s sports movie villain. He had little relevance and agency on his own, and by the end he's not even really a villain, just a competitor and an obstacle.

Relating to that thread, it's a shame Gaffer doesn't like Evil Buu and Pure Buu. I highly disagree with the idea that Evil Buu has no personality; he's silly, he's cunning, he's playful, he's sadistic, he's gluttonous, he has an ego, a short temper, a lack of patience, comical quirks, etc. Sure, you could say he has a weak motivation for doing evil things (he think it's fun), but it's not like Vegeta or Freeza have deep motivations either. They're evil brats. They were born with really high power levels and like to bully people and kill for money. There's not much more to it than that. I have a feeling I'm not going to agree with his Buu dissections much.
I don't necessarily need them to be deep either. I don't need them to be brooding or tragic or even sympathetic (although all of those things are nice). But I do need them to have a personality. Otherwise, the hero might as well just fight a wall. Vegeta. Zarbon. Freeza. All of those guys are filled to the brim with personality, and that's what makes them memorable. Most people don't really talk about Tambourine or Cymbal. And honestly, I don't think the original Piccolo would be remembered that well if he wasn't directly connected to a much more interesting version of himself. The comical villains might have been ineffectual but... well, there's a reason Battle of Gods featured Pilaf and Co. so prominently after all... :wink:
To be fair, does anyone talk about Dodoria or Zarbon either, outside of of their semi-memorable gimmicks in TFS? I don't think either of them had more personality than Tambourine, and I like Tambourine better than either of them on part of having a better design and actually being effective and menacing.

I disagree. He would at least still be remember for being the first really effective threat. Tao was a step in this direction, but he was immediately reduced to a Loony Tunes character a few chapters after his big evil deed.
Yes, there is indeed that. However, it's not like he really needed the power. He was already stronger than anyone else on the planet. If he had just made sure Goku was dead, he wouldn't have had a problem. Besides, what's the point of taking over the world if you aren't going to get to enjoy it for very long? After all, he has to last at least another 42 years just for his plan to work out. So while I agree the power was definitely a motivating factor, it just seems rather silly and kind of a waste to wish for youth that's not really going to last. Well, not silly, just indicative that Toriyama hadn't considered it.
He could just want to get stronger so that no one could ever oppose him. You know, as insurance. And it's possible he can live that long; we don't know what his natural life span was. There's nothing he could do about his relatively short life span due to the Kami retcon.

Maybe he was just a narcissist who desired his former beauty.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:26 am

Point taken on the 22nd Budokai.

As for Buu, I think Super Buu was kind of necessary. Gotenks and his battle is so silly, that I think Toriyama needed to make Buu more serious to balance things out. That's one of my favourite fights, too.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Saiga » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:11 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Clinical death is not the same thing as actual death. A person can be conscious and be clinically dead. That's just playing semantics not to mention it seems to be missing the point. I mean, good grief. Don't make me break out the Monty Python dead parrot skit here. I find it highly unlikely Piccolo was trying to ascertain if Goku was clinically dead as opposed to actually dead. A dead Goku most likely would not have been able to thwart Piccolo's plans over a day later. :)
Eh, it's not really semantics because there should be absolutely no difference in this case. Clinical death without someone present to save him should be death 100% of the time. Goku's recovery was miraculous and from Piccolo's perspective blowing up Goku would be no more assurance.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Fizzer » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:28 am

Kid Buu wrote: Can't go wrong with Toshio Furukawa though!
He does nail the role (huehuehuehue). He's also great as Blue, a different kind of villain entirely.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:32 am

I've only seen select episodes of the first TV series in Japanese, as I only recently acquired the DVDs, so I haven't heard much of his General Blue. I'd probably enjoy his General Blue more than his Piccolo, since I like that character much more. Sonny Strait made for a decent General Blue in the English version, too.

But more importantly, Toshio Furukawa is Ataru Moroboshi, the infamous protagonist of Urusei Yatsura.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:45 am

Just want to start by saying you guys are awesome, and I'm so glad the discussion is active and passionate right now. If I've come off in any of my posts recently as stubborn and unwilling to entertain anyone's opinion but my own, I apologize. It's not my intention. Well, I am stubborn, and, since I have given a lot of thought to the things I've said, I'm somewhat unlikely to be swayed right now. But I always enjoy the debate, and I always appreciate people challenging me with well-thought-out opinions. So thanks for being awesome, and I am so grateful and appreciative to have people give a crap about this stuff I put on YouTube. :)
dae428 wrote:Anyways I'm really enjoying the Dragon Ball Dissections so far MistareFusion! Keep up the good work! Given that you didn't rate the Piccolo Daimou arc the lowest ranking, it makes me really curious as to what arc that special designation will go... Also, since you're reviewing the anime as well as the manga for your dissections, are you planning on reviewing the anime arcs in multiple parts like your manga reviews or are you going to go over them quickly in a one video per arc style?
Thank you. So glad you're enjoying them. The TV videos will be supplements to their manga counterparts. So, no, they won't really be anything like the real analysis videos I've done so far. I'm not going to repeat anything or re-analyze anything. It's solely to talk about changes, additions, subtractions, and how those alterations affect the storyline. And, yes, I intend for them to be one video per arc. But they will have no affect whatsoever on the critiques and scoring of the core Dragon Ball Dissection series.
Kid Buu wrote:Anyway, for Gaffer Tape, I wanna this into discussion, mainly because the thread will obviously get locked soon.
I don't think it's going to be locked. Only the first post is old. Nothing ever came of it originally, and it seems like they're letting it slide. But I'm still more than happy to discuss villains.
1.) I always thought of you as someone who would like Tao Pai Pai, but you didn't list him.
2.) I agree that Vegeta and Yamucha were a lot more interesting as villains, shacking up with Blooma is a no-no for baddies!
3.) Thoughts on Tenshinhan? I find him the most boring big bad. Toriyama should have made Chaozu the big bad.
1. I do *like* Tao Pai Pai, but he's neither one of my favorites or least favorites. He's okay. I like his pillar-riding and tongue-killing.

3. I hate to give a cop-out answer, but I just recently thought of something to talk about Tenshinhan-related that I'm saying for the Saiyan arc. Please make sure I don't forget. :lol: I haven't quite decided if I find him straight up boring, but he and Piccolo both seem to be taken in the same direction: evil, cackling, hammy, and sadistic bad guys, followed by an immediate shift to stoic, solitary, and caring deeply for exactly one person.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Tenshinhan wasn't the big bad, Crane Hermit was. He's the one who was in charge, the one who had a history with one of the protagonists, and the one who wanted to murder people. Tenshinhan was merely a huge asshole who happened to be competing against the protagonists in an athletic competition, like every 80s sports movie villain. He had little relevance and agency on his own, and by the end he's not even really a villain, just a competitor and an obstacle.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. But I guess that begs the question: in The Karate Kid, who's the primary antagonist? Billy Zabka or whatever the fuck his name is or the Cobra Kai sensei? I guess you'd say the latter, and I don't really disagree. In fact, just like in Dragon Ball, the student eventually comes down with a bad case of the conscience. But you could still argue that Tenshinhan is still the primary antagonist. The fact that he's no longer villainous by the end doesn't really change that, and I don't think every main villain has to leave the picture by being killed. It's nice that there's some development. But even when he's no longer villainous, he's still the antagonist. And since the Crane Sennin is gone, he's really the only antagonist left.
Relating to that thread, it's a shame Gaffer doesn't like Evil Buu and Pure Buu. I highly disagree with the idea that Evil Buu has no personality; he's silly, he's cunning, he's playful, he's sadistic, he's gluttonous, he has an ego, a short temper, a lack of patience, comical quirks, etc.
I dunno. Offhand, the only two things I can think of that I found interesting and memorable was when he smashed the hourglass and (my personal favorite) that panel where he's eating a parfait and reading manga while waiting for Gotenks to finish his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Beyond that, he just seems like a generic thug. His powers are relatively unique (well, the ones that aren't just a rehash of Cell's powers), but I still think he's pretty lacking in the personality department.
I have a feeling I'm not going to agree with his Buu dissections much.
There are a lot of things I love in the Boo arc: Great Saiyaman, Videl, all of the 25th Budoukai stuff, nearly everything with Fat Boo, Mr. Satan, Gotenks, Piccolo's role. That's probably tipping my hand a bit too much, but, if you like any of those elements, then you'll probably agree with me a lot.
To be fair, does anyone talk about Dodoria or Zarbon either, outside of of their semi-memorable gimmicks in TFS? I don't think either of them had more personality than Tambourine, and I like Tambourine better than either of them on part of having a better design and actually being effective and menacing.
Well, I didn't mention Dodoria (although his vicious slaughter of the Namekian people is quite memorable), but I certainly recall people talking about Zarbon long before TFS. I really can't agree that Tambourine has as much personality as Zarbon. I mean, aside from the fact that he's evil and likes to kill (which can be attributed to nearly every villain), name one thing you can glean from Tambourine's personality. Name one thing aside from design and function that makes him any different from Cymbal. Or Drum. Or Piano. Or Piccolo for that matter. Zarbon at least is shown to be fussy and vain. I'm not saying Zarbon is the most well-developed or original character in the history of literature either, but at least there's something.

Likewise, Tambourine never really has any role in the story beyond just doing his job. He kills people. Then he dies. He never has any meaningful interactions with anyone besides killing them. Zarbon gets to be Vegeta's first real threat in his arc. While it's not gone into detail, he and Vegeta have a personal history, which makes their fights more meaningful. He gets to shift from Freeza's right-hand man to whipping boy pretty quickly (due in large part to his character foibles). The fact that he defeated Vegeta but didn't confirm his death is made into a big deal. Was it petty vanity to not make sure he finished the job? Or was it a blessing in disguise so that they can now question him? Or was it even worse because now Vegeta can infiltrate their base? When Freeza sends Zarbon out to find Vegeta again, there's more at stake for him than just the mission. His life is on the line. His reputation is shot. At one point, he even considers just running away. And when Vegeta's about to kill him, he tries to switch loyalties. Again, it's not amazingly deep or creative, but he's involved. He's active. He has personal goals and priorities. He thinks. He feels. He has character traits, and those character traits affect the story. Even 16 years ago, I found myself sympathizing with him. Tambourine, by contrast, is not a character at all. He's just a weapon, just a walking plot device.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I find Zarbon's design more interesting too.
He could just want to get stronger so that no one could ever oppose him. You know, as insurance. And it's possible he can live that long; we don't know what his natural life span was. There's nothing he could do about his relatively short life span due to the Kami retcon.

Maybe he was just a narcissist who desired his former beauty.
Maybe. But there's really nothing in his character to suggest that. And I'm honestly not sure why people are taking this point to task so much. It's not like I didn't very explicitly say during this arc that Piccolo wants to regain his power. I never said otherwise. Just because I didn't mention it in my latest video (because it really didn't relate to the point I was trying to make) doesn't mean I've forgotten about it. It's funny, though. I actually planned at one point during this arc to make a point that, while Piccolo is, if you think about it, the first villain to get a transformation, it's funny that he really didn't need one at all because he was already completely unopposed. I ultimately decided to cut that out because I didn't think it was important enough to mention, but maybe I was wrong since everyone seems to keep coming back to this. :lol:
Saiga wrote:Eh, it's not really semantics because there should be absolutely no difference in this case. Clinical death without someone present to save him should be death 100% of the time. Goku's recovery was miraculous and from Piccolo's perspective blowing up Goku would be no more assurance.
Well, don't want to beat a dead horse because I feel I covered this in-depth in Part 3, but that's really exactly my point. Again, I wish people would stop assuming I'm saying that Piccolo is lazy because he didn't stand around for 2 hours or bring in a doctor or hook him up to a heart monitor or bring him to the morgue. I've said it at least four times in this thread so far: I'm not passing judgment on Piccolo for that. I'm simply saying that Goku was still alive at the end, so Piccolo failed to correctly ascertain what he wanted to know. That's not a judgment. That's simply a statement of fact.

You're right. Given the circumstances we're told, Goku should have died. His recovery was miraculous. And that's what's stupid about it. Goku suffered clinical death, had a drink of water, and was more or less okay for no reason at all other than because the story needed Goku to get away from Piccolo. If Toriyama hadn't made it so explicit, it wouldn't have been so bad, but I guess he felt he needed to "top" this plot element since he'd already used it before, so he doesn't just *look* dead, his heart has stopped beating too. That really doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. It would honestly be more logical to assume that Goku's heart didn't actually stop beating and that Piccolo doesn't know how to properly check for a heartbeat, which makes him look stupid. So either way you want to interpret it, this scene is terrible.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by matt0044 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:44 pm

I think the Anime improved exposition by including flashbacks like with Trunks explaining why he came back in time or how Grandpa Gohan found and raise Goku. While the Manga mostly told, the Anime showed to sort help. Even if there could be some contradictions…

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:46 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Just want to start by saying you guys are awesome, and I'm so glad the discussion is active and passionate right now. If I've come off in any of my posts recently as stubborn and unwilling to entertain anyone's opinion but my own, I apologize. It's not my intention. Well, I am stubborn, and, since I have given a lot of thought to the things I've said, I'm somewhat unlikely to be swayed right now. But I always enjoy the debate, and I always appreciate people challenging me with well-thought-out opinions. So thanks for being awesome, and I am so grateful and appreciative to have people give a crap about this stuff I put on YouTube. :)
Here I thought we were grating you instead.

By the way, I really like Zarbon too. He's like Vega from Street Fighter....or Balrog in Japan.
I hate to give a cop-out answer, but I just recently thought of something to talk about Tenshinhan-related that I'm saying for the Saiyan arc. Please make sure I don't forget. :lol: I haven't quite decided if I find him straight up boring, but he and Piccolo both seem to be taken in the same direction: evil, cackling, hammy, and sadistic bad guys, followed by an immediate shift to stoic, solitary, and caring deeply for exactly one person.
I've noticed the similarities too, as I've harped on it a few times in this thread. That being said, I just don't like Piccolo. I know there are lots of Piccolo fans, but I feel like that although he was often forced into the spotlight, after the Nappa battle he never really did that much for the story. The only time I find him interesting is in regards to his relationships with other characters, like Goten and Trunks in the Buu Arc. By himself, he's just very meh to me.

That being said, since someone asked me to compare him to General Blue, I will say Piccolo would be a better villain if he had some of Blue's traits. :lol:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:52 pm

It's better than a master assassin with over 5+ years not checking if Goku dead. I fail to see the similarities between the two. Only simlarties is that Goku lost.

Not to offend anyone. But when I see Zarbon mentioned its not for personality but questioning his...sexuality. Some dubs even made him a female.

I'm stubborn too so I don't really mind if others are. Just make talking about something more fun. Unless we start dropping F-Bombs.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:56 pm

TheGmGoken wrote: Not to offend anyone. But when I see Zarbon mentioned its not for personality but questioning his...sexuality. Some dubs even made him a female..
The first time I read a DBZ fan-fiction, it was a Freeza/Zarbon pairing, and thus I never read a fan-fiction again. :crazy:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:00 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Not to offend anyone. But when I see Zarbon mentioned its not for personality but questioning his...sexuality.
Well, considering that Zarbon's sexuality is never stated or even hinted at in the story itself, what do you think fans are basing those assumptions on? His personality.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:25 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Not to offend anyone. But when I see Zarbon mentioned its not for personality but questioning his...sexuality.
Well, considering that Zarbon's sexuality is never stated or even hinted at in the story itself, what do you think fans are basing those assumptions on? His personality.
His outfit. I hear that more than anything

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:39 pm

I think Zarbon is one of the better henchmen Toriyama made but Cui and Dodoria were just as bland as Piccolo's men. Also, more people have seen DBZ than DB, so that might be why Piccolo's men are less talked about.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:39 pm

That's an interesting way of looking at it. But I guess that begs the question: in The Karate Kid, who's the primary antagonist? Billy Zabka or whatever the fuck his name is or the Cobra Kai sensei? I guess you'd say the latter, and I don't really disagree. In fact, just like in Dragon Ball, the student eventually comes down with a bad case of the conscience. But you could still argue that Tenshinhan is still the primary antagonist. The fact that he's no longer villainous by the end doesn't really change that, and I don't think every main villain has to leave the picture by being killed. It's nice that there's some development. But even when he's no longer villainous, he's still the antagonist. And since the Crane Sennin is gone, he's really the only antagonist left.
I think there's a slight but significant difference between that case and the Ten/Crane Hermit case: Zabka bullied Daniel outside of the tournament, making him Daniel's personal antagonist, while Ten is only a competitor, and has no connection to Goku or anyone else (unlike Crane Hermit, who has a connection to Roshi). I like to think of Crane Hermit as the main villain of the arc, since he was the reason Ten and Chiaotzu were amoral and dishonorable, and his defeat at Roshi's hands (both physically and mentally, due to Roshi's chats with Tenshinhan) marked the end of any real villainy in the arc. Ten fighting at the end after Crane Hermit has been defeated is similar to how, in many movies, shows, and video games, the bad guy's main henchman is still fighting the the protagonist after the conflict has been resolved.
There are a lot of things I love in the Boo arc: Great Saiyaman, Videl, all of the 25th Budoukai stuff, nearly everything with Fat Boo, Mr. Satan, Gotenks, Piccolo's role. That's probably tipping my hand a bit too much, but, if you like any of those elements, then you'll probably agree with me a lot.
I like about half of those things.
Well, I didn't mention Dodoria (although his vicious slaughter of the Namekian people is quite memorable), but I certainly recall people talking about Zarbon long before TFS
I mentioned Dodoria because you brought up Cymbal; both are fat brutish henchmen with little personality who exist primarily to get curbstomped by one of the main characters to give them some cred.
I really can't agree that Tambourine has as much personality as Zarbon. I mean, aside from the fact that he's evil and likes to kill (which can be attributed to nearly every villain), name one thing you can glean from Tambourine's personality. Name one thing aside from design and function that makes him any different from Cymbal. Or Drum. Or Piano. Or Piccolo for that matter. Zarbon at least is shown to be fussy and vain. I'm not saying Zarbon is the most well-developed or original character in the history of literature either, but at least there's something.
My point was more that neither of them have much personality. Tambourine is primarily defined by his role and function in the story. true, but I like the role he plays and how effective he is while he's around, while Zarbon just comes as off as plot irrelevant fodder. I disagree that his vanity counts as him having way more personality than Tambourine, since he only mentions it once off-hand.
Likewise, Tambourine never really has any role in the story beyond just doing his job. He kills people. Then he dies. He never has any meaningful interactions with anyone besides killing them. Zarbon gets to be Vegeta's first real threat in his arc. While it's not gone into detail, he and Vegeta have a personal history, which makes their fights more meaningful.
I don't think their fight was meaningful at all. The only references to their history are, I think, one off hand line from each of them (Vegeta says Zarbon was vain, Zarbon says Vegeta was weak), and we never see them interact when they're not fighting.

I'd actually say Tambourine plays that role better than Zarbon. He's Goku's first real threat in the arc, laying a horrific beat down on him before proceeding to kill most of the world's martial artists, and his fight with Goku possesses some meaning to it because Tambourine is the one who killed Krillin. It's not much, but it's something. It's also really the first time a villain made Goku go berserk.
He gets to shift from Freeza's right-hand man to whipping boy pretty quickly (due in large part to his character foibles). The fact that he defeated Vegeta but didn't confirm his death is made into a big deal. Was it petty vanity to not make sure he finished the job? Or was it a blessing in disguise so that they can now question him? Or was it even worse because now Vegeta can infiltrate their base? When Freeza sends Zarbon out to find Vegeta again, there's more at stake for him than just the mission. His life is on the line. His reputation is shot. At one point, he even considers just running away. And when Vegeta's about to kill him, he tries to switch loyalties. Again, it's not amazingly deep or creative, but he's involved. He's active. He has personal goals and priorities. He thinks. He feels. He has character traits, and those character traits affect the story. Even 16 years ago, I found myself sympathizing with him. Tambourine, by contrast, is not a character at all. He's just a weapon, just a walking plot device.
I guess I can see where you're coming from. But I never sympathized with Zarbon, he was just exhibiting a couple of stock villainous henchman traits (fear of failing his master and last second pathetic pleading for life... doesn't Tambourine do the latter as well?). Since his character is nigh non-existent, I'm forced to instead focus on his actions.
I dunno. Offhand, the only two things I can think of that I found interesting and memorable was when he smashed the hourglass and (my personal favorite) that panel where he's eating a parfait and reading manga while waiting for Gotenks to finish his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Beyond that, he just seems like a generic thug. His powers are relatively unique (well, the ones that aren't just a rehash of Cell's powers), but I still think he's pretty lacking in the personality department.
I disagree on him being a generic thug. He seemed more like a subversion of a generic thug like so many other Dragon Ball villains before him, mostly on part of his comedic traits and his ability to actually use his brain.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Saiga » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:13 am

You're right. Given the circumstances we're told, Goku should have died. His recovery was miraculous. And that's what's stupid about it. Goku suffered clinical death, had a drink of water, and was more or less okay for no reason at all other than because the story needed Goku to get away from Piccolo. If Toriyama hadn't made it so explicit, it wouldn't have been so bad, but I guess he felt he needed to "top" this plot element since he'd already used it before, so he doesn't just *look* dead, his heart has stopped beating too. That really doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. It would honestly be more logical to assume that Goku's heart didn't actually stop beating and that Piccolo doesn't know how to properly check for a heartbeat, which makes him look stupid. So either way you want to interpret it, this scene is terrible.
I'm really not following you on how that's stupid. It's miraculous sure, but I don't see how that's a bad thing by itself (unless it were completely unintentional). I also don't think it's about topping the RRA plot element but just being less repetitive - that very day in universe, Goku's already had his bacon saved because his attacker didn't even check on him. Doing that twice would be overkill.

And I don't find it more logical to assume Piccolo's an idiot, either. Coming back from a stopped heart really isn't that big a deal in Dragon Ball - it's one of the least outlandish things Goku has done. So I don't see any need to rectify that with an explanation that's just worse. There are only so many ways to handle a hero's loss to the villain and I think this as a one off is a good way to avoid most of the problems that usually show up - and by that I mean, writing the hero losing is hard. Because most times, it should mean the end of the story. There are only so many justifications that can let the heroes slip away, and it gets harder the more often you write it. I think that this was a fine way to do it.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:08 am

Remember that moment in the Freeza arc where Kuririn blows a hole through Vegeta's torso? And then we see him stumbling around on the brink of death? I admit, since I rarely ever see anyone with holes in their bodies, that I never even realized until a few years ago (probably due to a post by Rocketman) that that gaping hole would have taken out most of his spinal column, and that he really shouldn't be capable of walking at all because of that. I mean, realistically speaking, someone with a hole that size in their bodies shouldn't be walking at all no matter where it is. However, it ultimately... mostly... works because, one, they don't make it a point to call attention to a specific debilitating injury, so, like I said, it didn't even occur to me. And two, even more importantly, while the reaction to the injury isn't entirely medically accurate to be sure, it's still apparent (and made a major plot point) that he *will die* without immediate treatment, so him very briefly stumbling around isn't that huge of a deal. And, thankfully, he does almost immediately receive a treatment that in-universe is established to work, even if it's completely unrealistic from a real-world perspective. The event we're debating is the equivalent of if Vegeta stood up, acted a little groggy, and said, "Oh, wow. I don't have a spinal cord anymore... Should probably get that taken care of at some point. But I'm still going to defeat you!" There is absolutely no way you could make that line not sound ridiculous. And that's basically what this scene is doing: "Oh, wow. My heart stopped beating for, like, three minutes. That kinda hurt..."

Also, I didn't say making Piccolo incapable of reading a heartbeat was a *better* solution. I said it was more logical that he wouldn't be able to than that Goku could just walk off cardiac arrest. My point is, they're both stupid as far as I'm concerned. And, like I said in Part 3 to begin with, Goku surviving for no established reason just isn't narratively satisfying. It's a cop-out. It's kinda like watching one of the old-timey serials where the chapter ends on the cliffhanger that the villain has shot the hero. How's he going to get out of this one? Was he wearing a bullet-proof vest? Did the plucky sidekick take the hit for him? Did he use his new gadget to expertly dodge? Did he use that Martian Kung-Fu he'd been learning to catch the bullet? Come back next week! You come back next week. It turns out the villain just missed. Not because the hero did anything special... or anything at all. He was just a deer in the headlights the whole time. But the villain is a crappy shot. That's not satisfying, and neither is this.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:37 pm

So, why is it that you like Ma Junior more than Piccolo Daimao?

Also, I watched a lot of Music Videos on YouTube made by the Japanese, and I noticed that the majority from the footage comes from the Daimao Arc to the Namek Arc. This leads me to believe that in Japan a lot of people also believe that the series only started getting good once Piccolo shows up.

Oh, and they seem to like Bardock a lot too. Will you be covering DB Minus?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:44 pm

Kid Buu wrote:So, why is it that you like Ma Junior more than Piccolo Daimao?

Also, I watched a lot of Music Videos on YouTube made by the Japanese, and I noticed that the majority from the footage comes from the Daimao Arc to the Namek Arc. This leads me to believe that in Japan a lot of people also believe that the series only started getting good once Piccolo shows up.

Oh, and they seem to like Bardock a lot too. Will you be covering DB Minus?
That's also true about most amv makers. I myself only edited Dragonball from 22nd Budokai to Piccolo Jr. Along side Path to Power. But using music videos aren't a fair way to judge. Since Amvs tend to go with more action and emotions. Hence another reason why Piccolo Daimao arc to Cell arc is used the most. Lastly the impact of the attacks didn't look as brutal until 22 Budokai.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/8/14!

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:49 am

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:lol:
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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