Interesting or funny pictures thread

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:02 pm

Yeah, if they were SS, that would be valid. It was even acknowledged by Toriyama, that they have pretty much the same face as SS. But Tenshinhan and Yamcha have more squinted eyes, like oval eyes.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by flashback0180 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:31 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:51 am Image
Only logical explanation is that their growth as been stunted. Due to the harsh training in the gravity room and time chamber.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:37 pm

I don't think there's any logical explanation. And if anything, the Time Chamber should've accelerated their growth, not being stunted.

Also, that doesn't explain why Marron still looks like a baby, despite being nine years old (by the time Universe Survival saga occurs).
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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:21 am

One logical explanation is that the amount of time that has actually passed in the series is different than you believe it is. You may notice the only meaningful change in that image to actually happen in the series is Pan being born.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:23 am

Shaddy wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:21 am One logical explanation is that the amount of time that has actually passed in the series is different than you believe it is. You may notice the only meaningful change in that image to actually happen in the series is Pan being born.
I thought the ToP officially took place in 780 which was the same year that Future Gohan was killed. I can buy Goten looking young if he's undergoing the same growth as Goku but Trunks is now as old or older than his future counterpart seen in the TV special.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:53 pm

Maybe, maybe not. The year counter in the Broly film says it takes place in Age 775.

Assuming the year in a constantly-inconsistent timeline is something it might not be, specifically to complain that the timeline doesn't match up, is the domain of fools.

It's the same deal as powerscaling. If they say Krillin is stronger than Tien, then it doesn't matter whether you try to logic it out that he shouldn't be, Krillin is going to be stronger than Tien either way.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:05 am

Shaddy wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:53 pm Maybe, maybe not. The year counter in the Broly film says it takes place in Age 775.

Assuming the year in a constantly-inconsistent timeline is something it might not be, specifically to complain that the timeline doesn't match up, is the domain of fools.

It's the same deal as powerscaling. If they say Krillin is stronger than Tien, then it doesn't matter whether you try to logic it out that he shouldn't be, Krillin is going to be stronger than Tien either way.
I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest. You said that the amount of time passed in the series might be different than what we believe so I pointed that we do have an idea. I think it's easier to assume they overlooked aging Goten and Trunks since they weren't relevant to the story than assuming every year given in any official timeline is wrong. There are enough sources that the story is closer to EoZ than it is to the Buu saga.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:16 am

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:52 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:05 am I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest. You said that the amount of time passed in the series might be different than what we believe so I pointed that we do have an idea. I think it's easier to assume they overlooked aging Goten and Trunks since they weren't relevant to the story than assuming every year given in any official timeline is wrong. There are enough sources that the story is closer to EoZ than it is to the Buu saga.
What do you do when two sources give contradictory answers, then? Even if you say it's closer to one thing or another, it should stand out that you're judging by relative events and not a specific timeline, because as we've established, the year is textually inaccurate (or at least, Toriyama thinks it's something different than you do). I picked the Broly film because it's the first piece of DB material I could even remember any year being stated. It's just obviously not a big deal to them.

Conversely, having two characters look incorrect for years and years now would be obvious to anyone on the staff if they had any rigidity to the year, and I guarantee that'd be a bigger priority if they actually thought it was the same year this contingent of fans seems to. But you can only come to that conclusion by making your own personal judgements about which sources are accurate, and if you have to make those judgements, believing Goten and Trunks are too young is a voluntary decision.

It's not like this is anything new. Back in early Dragon Ball, a full year absolutely didn't pass between certain uses of the Dragon Balls. It's interesting how nobody gaslights themselves into believing everyone is a full year older because of that, despite it being way more textual than what is usually material outside the series itself.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:18 pm

Shaddy wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:52 pmWhat do you do when two sources give contradictory answers, then? Even if you say it's closer to one thing or another, it should stand out that you're judging by relative events and not a specific timeline, because as we've established, the year is textually inaccurate (or at least, Toriyama thinks it's something different than you do). I picked the Broly film because it's the first piece of DB material I could even remember any year being stated. It's just obviously not a big deal to them.
You're making it sound like headcanon or baseless speculation when it's only going by official information that's been presented to us. It's a long running series so no one expected all the various sources to line up perfectly. There were some discrepancies before DBS but still not too far from each other or new information provided.

The original manga stated that EoZ was ten years after the Buu saga and Pan was four years old so she was born in the second half of that timeskip. I'm pretty sure that's consistent with most sources that have RoF and the storylines beyond that also in the second half. Super Hero is close to EoZ and Pan is now three years indicating the movie takes place at 2-3 years after Broly and the ToP.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:18 pm You're making it sound like headcanon or baseless speculation when it's only going by official information that's been presented to us.
No I'm not. The official information is inconsistent. What metric is there then, for deciding which official source is right and which is wrong?
Skar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:18 pm The original manga stated that EoZ was ten years after the Buu saga and Pan was four years old so she was born in the second half of that timeskip. I'm pretty sure that's consistent with most sources that have RoF and the storylines beyond that also in the second half. Super Hero is close to EoZ and Pan is now three years indicating the movie takes place at 2-3 years after Broly and the ToP.
And Krillin shouldn't be stronger than Tien, yet here we are. I'm not questioning the logic you use to come to a conclusion, I'm saying the conclusion is in direct conflict with what is actually on screen. If the Broly movie says it takes place in age 775, it takes place in age 775, regardless of how much sense you think it makes.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:08 pm

Shaddy wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:05 pmNo I'm not. The official information is inconsistent. What metric is there then, for deciding which official source is right and which is wrong?
To be fair, you're making it sound more inconsistent than it really is. Almost every official source provides the same information about how far the story currently is from EoZ. Terez explains here that the age counter only faded out at 775 but wasn't intended to be the present day.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Terez27/stat ... 10657?s=19

If you want to assume Broly does take place in Age 775 and every other source is wrong, the events in the story alone like Pan and Bra being born give us an idea how many years have passed since the Buu saga.
And Krillin shouldn't be stronger than Tien, yet here we are. I'm not questioning the logic you use to come to a conclusion, I'm saying the conclusion is in direct conflict with what is actually on screen. If the Broly movie says it takes place in age 775, it takes place in age 775, regardless of how much sense you think it makes.
I don't see why Krillin can't be stronger than Tien. Yamcha said Krillin was the strongest human in the Buu saga and I recall Toriyama also confirming it outside the story. That's kinda the opposite of what we're discussing because fans speculating that Tien might still be stronger is going against official information. I've heard the argument that Krillin could have a PL but Tien has a chance of defeating him with the Kikoho since it's a concentrated attack. It's not too different than Piccolo being technically weaker than Raditz but having an technique that could overpower him.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 pm

But see what you're doing? You're deciding that my example is wrong because it doesn't line up with your impression, even though that impression is only generated by the supposed inaccuracy. That's exactly the thing you were saying I was doing. So what's the inherent internal logic that makes you right and not me? Because I guarantee the creative staff conveniently ignoring some character's ages and not others is less-likely than them having different ideas of the timeline than whatever magazine is trying to explain what year everything happens in.

My logic is that it has to actually be something that exists in the text, something we can presume Toriyama had a hand in, which the supplementary material usually doesn't, which is why they've been getting random facts wrong for thirty years. I am not arguing that some parts of Dragon Ball as a property do not believe it is the year you believe it is, only that it is likely not a case where everyone has agreed time has passed but somehow disagree that two specific characters have aged in a specific way. It's simply asinine and frankly insulting to the creative team to assume otherwise.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 am

Shaddy wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 pm But see what you're doing? You're deciding that my example is wrong because it doesn't line up with your impression, even though that impression is only generated by the supposed inaccuracy. That's exactly the thing you were saying I was doing. So what's the inherent internal logic that makes you right and not me? Because I guarantee the creative staff conveniently ignoring some character's ages and not others is less-likely than them having different ideas of the timeline than whatever magazine is trying to explain what year everything happens in.
I don't follow what you mean here. You brought up that Krillin couldn't be stronger than Tien so I questioned why he couldn't be. In both examples, I'm only believing what was officially stated. I always assumed Tien and Krillin were relatively close throughout DBZ then Toriyama decided to clarify who he thought was stronger in the Buu saga. If other fans want to disagree, it's up to them but I didn't have a problem with it.

The reason anyone questions why Goten and Trunks haven't aged in the first place is because every source and the story itself show how many years have passed. Maybe the creators had a different idea in mind but fans can only speculate based on what information the creators actually do provide. Only going by what's been presented in the story, Toriyama wrote EoZ taking place ten years after the Buu saga and that Pan was four years old. Pan is about a year old in Broly and Bra has been born meaning it's only a few years away from EoZ which is consistent with Pan being three years old in Super Hero. Is this interpretation wrong?

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:23 am

Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 am I don't follow what you mean here. You brought up that Krillin couldn't be stronger than Tien so I questioned why he couldn't be. In both examples, I'm only believing what was officially stated. I always assumed Tien and Krillin were relatively close throughout DBZ then Toriyama decided to clarify who he thought was stronger in the Buu saga. If other fans want to disagree, it's up to them but I didn't have a problem with it.
Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was your selection of source. You and I are both choosing to believe separate accounts of what year we're in, and I assume you have some criteria as to how you chose yours. Now I don't specifically need Broly's interpretation to be the end-all-be-all, but I think it, as text written directly by Toriyama, is more reliable than more supplementary sources that I tend to associate with inaccuracy, as I don't suspect that the creative teams would very specifically forget to redesign two characters (even when Trunks himself was redesigned in the Broly film) for their age, whilst simultaneously keeping rigorous track of fictional years that aren't even consistent in-universe. I find it far more likely that they don't often have specific years in mind for things and simply allow the magazines or whoever to fill in the blanks.

In your case, I just don't understand what your criteria is to make one source more viable than another.
Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 am The reason anyone questions why Goten and Trunks haven't aged in the first place is because every source and the story itself show how many years have passed. Maybe the creators had a different idea in mind but fans can only speculate based on what information the creators actually do provide. Only going by what's been presented in the story, Toriyama wrote EoZ taking place ten years after the Buu saga and that Pan was four years old. Pan is about a year old in Broly and Bra has been born meaning it's only a few years away from EoZ which is consistent with Pan being three years old in Super Hero. Is this interpretation wrong?
Why not? We have been debating for years the viability of going to End of Z from the point we have now reached in Super. There are a ton of contradictions that clearly signify a big difference between where we would be if we tried to shoehorn EoZ into Super. If you're not willing to let the amount of time passed slide, why do you let slide the part where Goku supposedly hasn't seen these people in years? Or maybe how Goku sees Uub in the Super manga way ahead of all this?

The point has never been that my specific interpretation is the unrivaled correct one, just that it's foolish to complain about a perceived anachronism when its place in the text is dubious at-best and the proof it is anachronism requires overlooking several other inconsistencies, and the alternative, that these problems only exist through a specific framing that is not strictly supported by the text.

The reason I brought up power scaling is not because I actually care whether Krillin or Tenshinhan is stronger, because frankly I like Krillin better and I'm perfectly happy with him being the one who participates more, but because most power scaling "debates" rely on a framing where the show has broken a rule it never set by having one character dominate over the other, based on a mostly-fudged interpretation of the prior text, mixed with a lot of extrapolation from non-textual material. Similarly, the perceived inconsistency in Goten and Trunks's ages is based in a lot of reports of chronology in the series that the series itself just does not care about and feels like it never really has. And I think that's silly.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:24 am

Shaddy wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:23 amWhy not? We have been debating for years the viability of going to End of Z from the point we have now reached in Super. There are a ton of contradictions that clearly signify a big difference between where we would be if we tried to shoehorn EoZ into Super. If you're not willing to let the amount of time passed slide, why do you let slide the part where Goku supposedly hasn't seen these people in years? Or maybe how Goku sees Uub in the Super manga way ahead of all this?
I don't think anyone has claimed DBS lines up perfectly with EoZ. If there are some inconsistencies in a long running series, I'm not going to jump to the extreme of questioning very piece of information presented and assuming it's all going to be contradicted. You're arguing that the creators don't care about a timeline at all so you shouldn't have an issue with someone's interpretation that they have some idea but only didn't care to age two relatively minor characters. If they look older in Super Hero, I don't see what's wrong with assuming that they wanted to wait until they were close to EoZ to use those existing older designs.

Some anime have the characters the same age regardless of how many years pass and holidays or birthdays they celebrate. Those clearly don't care about a timeline and the author or studio probably never attempted to make an official one. DB isn't one of those series because time moves forward and the story gives you an idea of how much time is passing and how old some characters have become. Even if some details were forgotten or overlooked, Toriyama clearly has some version of EoZ in mind for DBS to lead into since he still considers it the ending. Again you still ignore all the timelines since Pan's age is enough to give us a general idea how far along the story is within that timeskip.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Shaddy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:30 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:24 am I don't think anyone has claimed DBS lines up perfectly with EoZ. If there are some inconsistencies in a long running series, I'm not going to jump to the extreme of questioning very piece of information presented and assuming it's all going to be contradicted.
But this isn't about "every piece of information", it is about the very specific information about how much time has passed since Buu, and that is something that has already been contradicted.
Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:24 amYou're arguing that the creators don't care about a timeline at all so you shouldn't have an issue with someone's interpretation that they have some idea but only didn't care to age two relatively minor characters. If they look older in Super Hero, I don't see what's wrong with assuming that they wanted to wait until they were close to EoZ to use those existing older designs.
I'm not arguing that they don't care at all, otherwise I would agree they just aren't aging the kids. What I'm arguing is that the idea that they should have aged the kids by now is, at-best, based on them thinking a different amount of time has passed even if it hasn't, and at worst, a claim based on dubious supplemental material, which is the thing they don't care about.
Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:24 am Even if some details were forgotten or overlooked, Toriyama clearly has some version of EoZ in mind for DBS to lead into since he still considers it the ending.
Some version, maybe, but not the version where Goku and co. haven't met up together in ten years or whatever it said. Since that very relevant detail has been omitted, it's not really that far a leap to say other things have shifted. I just think it's kind of weird to cast the creative team of DB as too stupid to age the kids up based on a timeline that there isn't a good reason to assume they are beholden to.
Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:24 amAgain you still ignore all the timelines since Pan's age is enough to give us a general idea how far along the story is within that timeskip.
Enough to say how much time has passed since Pan was born, yes, but to figure out how close we are to a moving goalpost, no.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 amIs this interpretation wrong?
No. You are wise to stick to what official material tells you, while being open-minded and knowing that they will make mistakes along the way. For that, make sure to keep visiting Kanzenshuu forum (as well as following the right people on Twitter), there are people who understand quite well this subject and they will provide you great and detailed explanation (and solution, where applicable) about the years of Dragon Ball. If you have any question, don't hesitate to ask them, most will be glad to enlighten you.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:31 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pm
Skar wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 amIs this interpretation wrong?
No. You are wise to stick to what official material tells you, while being open-minded and knowing that they will make mistakes along the way. For that, make sure to keep visiting Kanzenshuu forum (as well as following the right people on Twitter), there are people who understand quite well this subject and they will provide you great and detailed explanation (and solution, where applicable) about the years of Dragon Ball. If you have any question, don't hesitate to ask them, most will be glad to enlighten you.

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Re: Interesting or funny pictures thread

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:55 pm

Shaddy wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:30 pmSome version, maybe, but not the version where Goku and co. haven't met up together in ten years or whatever it said. Since that very relevant detail has been omitted, it's not really that far a leap to say other things have shifted.
Bulma said she hasn't seen Goku in five years which is now off by a year or two. Forgetting a line of dialogue doesn't mean Toriyama intends to retcon almost everything else. I don't know if you're only playing devil's advocate and really believe Broly is only one year after the Buu saga but do you expect Toriyama to change how old characters are by EoZ? Aside from Pan's age, we also have Uub in his DBS appearances that show a few years have passed since the Buu saga.
I just think it's kind of weird to cast the creative team of DB as too stupid to age the kids up based on a timeline that there isn't a good reason to assume they are beholden to.
No one is claiming the creative team or Toriyama since he's likely the only one deciding on main character designs is stupid. That might be a reason for the disagreement because you're assuming that they didn't care to age them is meant to be an insult. I think it's more insulting to them to assume they've been giving a timeline in various sources and there's such a lack of communication that only the movie itself intended something else. This isn't based on decades old guidebooks but instead information that they've been releasing alongside these movies.
Enough to say how much time has passed since Pan was born, yes, but to figure out how close we are to a moving goalpost, no.
I don't understand how it's a moving goalpost. It's more arcs taking place each Age than expected but we're still given an idea how far we are from EoZ based on Pan's age. How many years do you think are between Super Hero and EoZ?
Grimlock wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pmNo. You are wise to stick to what official material tells you, while being open-minded and knowing that they will make mistakes along the way. For that, make sure to keep visiting Kanzenshuu forum (as well as following the right people on Twitter), there are people who understand quite well this subject and they will provide you great and detailed explanation (and solution, where applicable) about the years of Dragon Ball. If you have any question, don't hesitate to ask them, most will be glad to enlighten you.
Thanks and that's the reason I joined this forum back in 2013 :D. Well not for questions about the timeline since Herms already had a detailed timeline guide but because it's the best place to discuss and obtain information about the series overall.

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