General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[KBABZ]

I was under the impression that if Toriyama didn't write it, it's not canon. Apparently I was mistaken and many people did not know this. That would explain why Youtube was filled to the brim with conveniently 10 minute long clickbait rants complaining about the Bardock special not linking with the new movie. Because apparently none of them have read the manga.

That'd be true for a lot of other franchises, but there's a lot of reverence for a lot of the filler content, and there's been so many takes on the same core story told by the manga (the anime, video games, Heroes, etc) that it's impossible to say which one is "canon" or not, so to me at least there's not much point trying to figure out which take on a story trumps the others.

The only consistent factor between all of them is that original 516 Chapter run of the manga, from which all the others are based. Kinda like how Star Wars always has the first six films as the jumping off point for all other media, a sort of "continuity spine", I guess.

[Noah]

How do you define canon?

Well, Dragon Ball has no stated canon, unlike Star Wars that has divided on five levels: Author canon, Television canon, Continuity canon, Secondary canon, and Non canon.

Not saying this franchise needs the same division, I think only a proper timeline according to the past and current events could define what Toriyama and Toei consider to be part of the main continuity. Since that hasn't happened yet, I only consider the original 42 volumes and everything else as optional.

[Cetra]

How do you define canon?

Well, Dragon Ball has no stated canon, unlike Star Wars that has divided on five levels: Author canon, Television canon, Continuity canon, Secondary canon, and Non canon.

Not saying this franchise needs the same division, I think only a proper timeline according to the past and current events could define what Toriyama and Toei consider to be part of the main continuity. Since that hasn't happened yet, I only consider the original 42 volumes and everything else as optional.

I tend to call Dragon Ball the franchise with the "foggy canon". There is nothing really there, only some loose rules with them taking whatever they want when they need it. And they certainly do not go for "oh, but this is so logically inconsistent so it cannot be".

Fans of Detective Conan are always saying "the movies are non cannnnnon, they are non kanneeen", but Gosho Aoyama has pretty much prove them wrong by now. Just because he does not reference every single movie they are worthless in his storyline.

[Shineman]

Could it be confusing 'canon' with 'apocrypha' or 'expanded universes'? "
You have not reacted to this yet. But that is what the old films and GT basically are.

By the definition you provided, it seems to me that "Apocrypha" relates to an officially established canon, which Dragon Ball does not have. That is why I did not react.

The insinuation that no canon exists or everything canon is, in my opinion, wrong.

Alright, it's agree to disagree. This won't get us anywhere.

Pretty much; I think it would be much easier and less of a headache to have endless conversation of which is canon, which is "non-canon", which is kind of canon and what have you. Place everything under canon and separate them as continuities: the main continuity (the manga) and everyone else as their own, unless declared by the right-owners as extension of the main one. Canon should not be interchangeable with continuity, since the former refers to an collection of works (and in this context, everything created by the rights-holders) and the latter refers to an series of events in chronological order (in this context, where the series fit in the timeline and those that don't formed their own continuities from the main one). Non-canon either no longer applies or simply refers to non-official works.

I can't believe that you summarized my point of view on the matter perfectly and in such a short text! I would probably have to write a bible to explain it. Congrats!

Haha, no problem. I was thinking about this for a long, long time, but I have to give much of the credit to Kamicolo, since he's the first one to bring this kind of sentiment in his "side-story" discussion.

[ZodaEX]

How do you define canon?

Well, Dragon Ball has no stated canon, unlike Star Wars that has divided on five levels: Author canon, Television canon, Continuity canon, Secondary canon, and Non canon.

Not saying this franchise needs the same division, I think only a proper timeline according to the past and current events could define what Toriyama and Toei consider to be part of the main continuity. Since that hasn't happened yet, I only consider the original 42 volumes and everything else as optional.

I tend to call Dragon Ball the franchise with the "foggy canon". There is nothing really there, only some loose rules with them taking whatever they want when they need it. And they certainly do not go for "oh, but this is so logically inconsistent so it cannot be".

Fans of Detective Conan are always saying "the movies are non cannnnnon, they are non kanneeen", but Gosho Aoyama has pretty much prove them wrong by now. Just because he does not reference every single movie they are worthless in his storyline.

Who is this "they" you keep referring to. Toei producers? Toriyama? I get that you follow your own head cannon, but you're also being so unspecific in your terminology that you are saying a lot without actually saying much of anything.

[ABED]

How do you define canon?

Well, Dragon Ball has no stated canon, unlike Star Wars that has divided on five levels: Author canon, Television canon, Continuity canon, Secondary canon, and Non canon.

Not saying this franchise needs the same division, I think only a proper timeline according to the past and current events could define what Toriyama and Toei consider to be part of the main continuity. Since that hasn't happened yet, I only consider the original 42 volumes and everything else as optional.

What is continuity canon?

[Noah]

What is continuity canon?

C-canon was Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games were a special case, as generally only the stories were C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not have been;they also offered non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have appeared in the movies, making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
Source

[ABED]

What is continuity canon?

C-canon was Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games were a special case, as generally only the stories were C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not have been;they also offered non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have appeared in the movies, making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
Source

Still not clear why you are calling it continuity canon and how that differs from just canon?

G canon?

[Noah]

Still not clear why you are calling it continuity canon and how that differs from just canon?

Well, it's not me calling it and yes the franchise itself. You could also click it on the source to look why it differs from normal canon.

[ABED]

Still not clear why you are calling it continuity canon and how that differs from just canon?

Well, it's not me calling it and yes the franchise itself. You could also click it on the source to look why it differs from normal canon.

The only thing that does is make me say "Oh, for the love of god". Apparently "non-canon" is a level of canon.

[KBABZ]

Apparently "non-canon" is a level of canon.

I'm guessing it's similar to how 0 is a number despite having no numerical value.

[Cetra]

I'm guessing it's similar to how 0 is a number despite having no numerical value.

Just like an empty list is mathematically a list as well as subtraction is mathematically also addition/division is mathematically also multiplication.

There are always layers of logic one does not immediately see.

Who is this "they" you keep referring to. Toei producers? Toriyama? I get that you follow your own head cannon, but you're also being so unspecific in your terminology that you are saying a lot without actually saying much of anything.

First of all, I am not following any head canon at all. I said that I vision Dragon Ball as something with a "foggy canon" simply because that is exactly what Dragon Ball is. There is nothing that really matters to them until they need it and that reflects in their decisions about not really caring about to strict consistency or bringing in stuff that one would have never imagined. Second, it is not "cannon". It is the canon (lat. "scale", "guideline") , canonicity, canonical, non-canonical, canonize, decanonize. And I provide enough context and explanation for people that actually want to understand to definitely be able to understand. I said it often enough and I will say it again - I will not post my point about topic X with exactly the same wasted time and effort over again. It is all in the forum already. And for those that do not want to search, there is still enough in my last posts to understand it. People just need to be ready to comprehend, unwillingsness to maybe even understand what the other one says, or even agree will of course not lead to properly understanding. And to actually repeat at least one thing again because if that is the only thing that makes it hard to understand for you, let me clear this so you don't get to read me just venting: I explained who is meant with "they" often. The authoritative, the decisive instances that have a say in such things, it being from an intellectual or legal perspective. That does not mean every single license holder but as said, the decisive instances.

[ABED]

Apparently "non-canon" is a level of canon.

I'm guessing it's similar to how 0 is a number despite having no numerical value.

I don't see it that way. Saying non-canon is a type of canon is more like saying abstinence is a type of sex.

Thing is, people are taking a fairly straightforward concept and are making it more complicated than it needs to be. It's the events that occur in the story. There are of course caveats, but by and large if you use that very simple definition as your north star, you'll be okay.

[Grimlock]

As for you “alternate dimension” argument, what you are saying is basically the same thing as saying “this isn’t canonical”. Stories not written by the author, which he himself says are part of “alternate dimensions” is the same as saying those events are not canonical. It’s just Toriyama’s way of saying it, the same as he said Battle of Gods was written as if it were the next chapter of his manga instead of saying “this is canonical”.
Surely the movies, GT, Heroes etcetera exist and are there to be enjoyed by fans but, ultimately, they will never affect the main continuity because Toriyama doesn’t acknowledge their in-universe existence. Broly’s “canonization” is proof of that.
I really don’t think there’s any need to discuss this furthermore.

Not the same at all. Because the alternate dimension is an in-universe concept. When I say "they exist out there", I mean in-universe. That's what Toriyama established/acknowledged in that Daizenshuu 6 interview and what Heroes/Xenoverse have been expanding upon.

The only thing Dragon Ball Super Broly proves is that a character can either not exist at all in the "main dimension", or if they do, it may be totally different from the other one that exists already. There are two Brolys out there, in-universe speaking. There's only one Cooler out there, but there can be another if they want to give him the same treatment.

Obviously it’s not literally fan fiction but most of those movies share a lot of similar tropes that we see in fan fiction, hence the comparison.

Then I was spot on when I said that both the movies post-Movie 14 are also fan fiction. As they also share a lot of similar tropes that we see in fan fiction.

[Planetnamek]

On the topic of filler i'm OK with most of it, I didn't mind the fake Namek stuff too much. Definitely loved the driving episode, I remember laughing my ass off watching that on CN. Luckily I was able to find the version of the Trunks Prelude DVD with that episode and Z Warriors Prepare on it.

[KBABZ]

Whew, a 13-month necrobump!

[Zestanor]

The anime could have taken one of two routes in adapting the manga. On one hand they could loosely adapted the source material, polished it up a bit, shaken some stuff around. The other option, which Toei chose for this anime, was to adapt every single panel from the manga and evert single line of dialogue verbatim, and just add color, movement, and sound. I suppose there is a little bit of the first thing in DB, where the anime breaks from the manga and introduces arc villains Pilaf, Silver, and Tenshinhan in anime-only scenes. But on the whole, the anime is a meticulously exact adaptation of the manga.

Because of that, phrases like “canon to the manga” and “canon to the anime” are trivial. The anime, if it contradicts the manga somewhere, did not have that as the intention. The anime is not supposed to be in a different continuity than the manga. This is why a good case can be made that even within the show, anything not adapted from the manga is spurious. It’s not like Game of Thrones, so I’ve heard, which is not intended to be an exact adaptation of the books. Or the Sailor Moon anime, which is purposely different from its manga. In those cases, you can speak of separate canons for the original and the derivative.

I think the anime filler is canon when you’re watching it, but then it’s in canon-Limbo when it’s over, except in the rare case it gets referenced later. You can believe it happened in the manga universe, but the case that it must have happened is weak.

[Scsigs]

The anime could have taken one of two routes in adapting the manga. On one hand they could loosely adapted the source material, polished it up a bit, shaken some stuff around. The other option, which Toei chose for this anime, was to adapt every single panel from the manga and every single line of dialogue verbatim, and just add color, movement, and sound. I suppose there is a little bit of the first thing in DB, where the anime breaks from the manga and introduces arc villains Pilaf, Silver, and Tenshinhan in anime-only scenes. But on the whole, the anime is a meticulously exact adaptation of the manga.

Because of that, phrases like “canon to the manga” and “canon to the anime” are trivial. The anime, if it contradicts the manga somewhere, did not have that as the intention. The anime is not supposed to be in a different continuity than the manga. This is why a good case can be made that even within the show, anything not adapted from the manga is spurious. It’s not like Game of Thrones, so I’ve heard, which is not intended to be an exact adaptation of the books. Or the Sailor Moon anime, which is purposely different from its manga. In those cases, you can speak of separate canons for the original and the derivative.

I think the anime filler is canon when you’re watching it, but then it’s in canon-Limbo when it’s over, except in the rare case it gets referenced later. You can believe it happened in the manga universe, but the case that it must have happened is weak.

The anime is an adaptation of the manga. It existed to bolster it & the merchandise sales, as all animes based on mangas exist to do. As such, it adapted the manga's events, but took liberties every now & then with some of the adapted scenes that changed. Kai couldn't avoid the changed scenes even with most of the filler removed. Filler is just a byproduct of the anime staff needing to not overtake the manga. You can have an anime show adapting a manga not have filler, but you'll need to wait till the author is very close to the end of their story. Sometimes there's both, like with Fullmetal Alchemist. Sometimes, very rarely, there are recuts. So, yes, the anime IS supposed to be different from the manga in some ways. Hence the adaptation part of it. They also changed some character personalities &/or other things in small ways that changed how some scenes were taken by the audience.

The anime & manga are in 2 different timelines, just as the movies & most of the specials are, as is GT, which follows more in the footsteps of the anime than the manga by either referencing or outright saying. Super, though has its own filler & continuity problems, follows more in-line with the manga's version of events but references some anime-only material either early on or in its own filler. It also uses the remastered Kai footage to depict evens of the manga in flashbacks early on, but reanimated other scenes at other times. And Kai was supposed to be truer to the manga by cutting out the majority of the filler, so it's in a weird in-between, especially with how The Final Chapters is concerned.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

In terms of the anime's filler, with the original series i particularly like the bits where Goku trains solo prior to the 22nd Budokai as it does feel connected with the actual manga material and expands upon what happens between the end of the Red Ribbon/Baba arc and the former. As for Z on the other hand, the two main parts i really personally enjoy are the scenes showing Gohan's growth during his training in the wilderness and also the Afterlife Tournament/Anoyo-ichi Budokai as those are the ones i feel do fit in the manga's story and doesn't feel too at odds with everything around them while providing expansion. While much of the filler (Princess Snake, orphans, Garlic Jr.etc) never really interested me that much which is why i'm glad they were among the material completely removed from Kai it did kind of pain me to see those particular ones go.

[KBABZ]

First, a reminder that as far as Toei are concerned, there is no "canon", they're completely unconcerned about the subject.

I feel like the anime can be seen as an expanded version of the manga, but it only works in one direction: the filler scenes should not be applied back to the manga, in my opinion. I've said before that I feel that there are three main "families" as far as what counts. There's the manga+Jaco+DB Minus, then there's anime (which includes GT), and then there's Kai+Super.