Episode of Bardock: Giant On-Going Manga + Anime Discussion

[penguintruth]

I really dislike the whole idea of "Bardock couldn't become a Super Saiyan because he didn't have enough battle power". Where was it ever stated that a Saiyan needs to be at X amount of battle power in order to transform? As far as I understand, the only requirement is trauma, and Bardock has plenty to spare.

Some random regular-strength Saiyan should in no way be capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. The only reason Bardock isn't random is because he's Goku's father. In all other aspects, he's a nobody. Freeza didn't even bother addressing him when he destroyed Planet Vegeta. He's a flea.

[batistabus]

In all other aspects, he's a nobody. Freeza didn't even bother addressing him when he destroyed Planet Vegeta. He's a flea.

That's why I like him so much. It's also why I dislike the idea of this special so much.

[JulieYBM]

Bardock's battle power was ten thousand. As strong, if not stronger, than the King. This supposedly came out of nowhere, too, so for Bardock to suddenly have the potential to become a Super Saiyan doesn't seem that far-fetched, espicially after surviving the physical and mental trauma of being caught in an exploding planet.

[penguintruth]

Bardock's battle power was ten thousand. As strong, if not stronger, than the King.

Where are you even getting this? King Vegeta was likely far more strong than Bardock. You think that King Vegeta became king through popularity?

The problem I have with Bardock becoming Super Saiyan is the same reason a lot of people have a low opinion of the Buu arc. Suddenly EVERYONE is a Super Saiyan. So now becoming a Super Saiyan is like a family tradition. It makes Goku seem less special.

It's like in Superman comics when there are all these other Kryptonians as strong as Superman. Too many Superfolks spoil the broth. I prefer my Superman the Last Son of Krypton, not the One of Several Last Sons of Krypton. And I'd prefer it if at least Goku's father wasn't a Super Saiyan, too.

[dbgtFO]

Bardock's battle power was ten thousand. As strong, if not stronger, than the King.

Where are you even getting this? King Vegeta was likely far more strong than Bardock. You think that King Vegeta became king through popularity?

Corroborating evidence is his Daizenshuu 7 profile, which says he was the strongest Saiyan at the time:

Though he was the strongest Saiyan at the time, Freeza easily killed him without transforming.

[penguintruth]

That's total bullshit. If Bardock was stronger than King Vegeta, he would have overthrown him. You think the Saiyans would have followed a weaker Saiyan than low-class Bardock? They're Saiyans, for Kami's sake!

[Adamant]

Can anyone translate the cast list?

Bardock: Masako Nozawa
Freeza/Chilled: Ryusei Nakao

Ipana: Masashi Ebara
Beri: Houko Kuwashima
Zarbon: Hiroaki Miura
Dodoria: Takashi Nagasako
Tobi: Keiji Hirai
Cavira: Kazuyuki Ishikawa
Chilled's Subordinates: Nobunaga Shimazaki, Hiromu Miyazaki
Villagers: Tomoyo Sasaki, Haruka Terui, Sayaka Hirao

Narration: Jouji Yanami

[Craddle]

If you donwload the silverlight as the page says, you will watch the movie:
http://shop.animejan.jp/anime/_item/item117398_0000.htm

Looks like the cat is out of the bag. Also, Mike is aware of this post so, I assume it's okay.

[JulieYBM]

That's total bullshit. If Bardock was stronger than King Vegeta, he would have overthrown him. You think the Saiyans would have followed a weaker Saiyan than low-class Bardock? They're Saiyans, for Kami's sake!

Bardock's battle power is revealed early on in the TV special after being injured on Kanasa. It's been a while since I've seen the special, but I don't think he's even aware of how strong he is until he battles Dodoria's grunts. Afterwards he's too upset to give anything any logical thought, let alone challenge the king.

Of course, even if Bardock had tried to take the throne he wouldn't have had the time to, considering how quickly Freeza decided to blow the planet to Kingdom Come.

[penguintruth]

It's still a reach to believe he can become a Super Saiyan.

I also dislike that he continues to live. It was better with him dying as it came to him that his son would carry on his wishes.

[BobZ]

I cried. The special was effing awesome. The animation was a bit rushed at times, but overall it was top-notch.

The only thing I disliked was the ending. Where was Bardock going, what happened to him afterwards? That was left unexplained, but I guess it was left for us, the viewers to decide on our own.

Do a mini special like this every year or two and I'm one happy Dragon Ball fan.

[JulieYBM]

It's still a reach to believe he can become a Super Saiyan.

It's only really a reach if we consider battle powers in terms of numbers. Vegeta takes shot to the gut from Kuririn and goes from 250,000 to somewhere over one million. Bardock survives a planet blowing up and can suddenly find himself with enough strength to become a Super Saiyan, that strength left undefined.

[Rukura]

Was I the only one thrown off by Bardock's palm bleeding...despite his nails not even touching his palm?

I thought it was cool...probably just because it's new Dragon Ball animation, with the same awesome voices and a decent score (and because Bardock is awesome). It would be awesome for this to get a release, but I'm still disappointed with the lack of new closing song.

Hopefully this also gets a review on the next podcast that includes Jeff?

It's still a reach to believe he can become a Super Saiyan.

After years of seeing kids going Super Saiyan (Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Goku Jr, Vegeta Jr, everyone but their grandma on Heroes commercials)....meh, doesn't really seem too out there to me.

[penguintruth]

It's still a reach to believe he can become a Super Saiyan.

It's only really a reach if we consider battle powers in terms of numbers. Vegeta takes shot to the gut from Kuririn and goes from 250,000 to somewhere over one million. Bardock survives a planet blowing up and can suddenly find himself with enough strength to become a Super Saiyan, that strength left undefined.

That's another thing, surviving the planet's explosion, or being brought back in time by Freeza's Death Ball, that's complete bullshit, too. Even Goku wouldn't survive the destruction of a planet. We're supposed to believe Bardock is stronger than Goku, too?

[Cold Skin]

I think the scenario is compatible with the original plot.

The fact that Burdock traveled through time is likely because of the conjunction of Freeza's incredibly powerful blast and the fact that Burdock had a vision at the same time (though it isn't shown in this special, as they probably thought that it would confuse the audience unaware of this power, but also not to remind people that there's no vision in this special - which is either an incoherence or means that the transfer of his time control from "little hole to catch a glimpse of the future" to "huge tunnel to be thrown into the past" has canceled this ability - either way they don't want to attract attention on his vision power).

The fact that Burdock became a Super Saiyan has nothing to do with strength, but with feelings. A regular Saiyan is not big on feelings, because of their wild lifestyle which doesn't give any occasion to have the frustration necessary to transform in their whole lives, but this one had what it took to reconnect with his intense feelings as the images he has in mind before transforming show (no Saiyan has ever faced a threat that made him lost his team, his people, his planet, and then seems to proceed to make other people and planets endure the same fate, as if the first time was not enough of a tragedy as it was).

The fact that Burdock became THE original Super Saiyan finally explains the legend: if there was a legend of the Super Saiyan, it meant that there had been one a thousand years ago. And knowing how Saiyans are, an invincible Saiyan would have conquered the universe by then. Within a thousand years of a Saiyan race, other Super Saiyans would have arose, so the legend wouldn't say it's one in a thousand years, and once again they would have been an undefeatable threat. So it actually makes sense that it was Burdock (or any of our modern but few "I actually have something else in my mind than a will to conquer or destroy" Saiyans travelling back then - imagine the end of Goku's story being that he travelled through time and actually became the first known Super Saiyan, actually creating the legend his younger self would fulfil a thousand years later!! )

So the explanation we've been waiting for since our childhood for where the legend comes from? Saiyans don't go back that far in the timeline, not so long ago (before they invaded the Tsufuls with King Vegeta), they were likely close to prehistoric men with superpowers, not the ideal way to connect with your feelings. Anyway, the only reason why there was a Saiyan a thousand years ago was because he had travelled through time. And the only reason why he didn't conquer the universe was because he had seen his own people being destroyed and faced a tyrant that was doing just this to many people over the galaxy. So he would just live on with his life, not conquering anything and not uselessly threatening the rest of the universe. But his showdown with Chill still was enough to pass down the word that a people named "Saiyans" (which he learned thanks to a short conversation with Burdock) was an absolute danger, perhaps the only one for Freezer's family. Since their hadn't been one in many centuries, the legend became more specific, saying it happens every thousand years (or maybe the Saiyans made it up when hearing about that legend to give themselves hope that one of them could suddenly become the ultimate warrior at a specific yet unknown date). Since Vegeta and Ginyu know about it, it can safely be assumed that they heard it because of their work relationship with Freezer, you know, those rumors you hear on your daily routine, word spreads around so easily in a company (even an intergalactic one)...

[penguintruth]

I also dislike that Bardock is responsible for his own planet's destruction, since his being a Super Saiyan is what was passed down to Freeza who decided to destroy Planet Vegeta which sent Bardock back in the past to become the Super Saiyan which was what was passed down to Freeza who decided.... and so on. I liked the legend of the Super Saiyan better when it was just a legend nobody quite knew the specifics of.

Freeza destroys Planet Vegeta because he worries a Super Saiyan will appear. The Super Saiyan he's worried about (without knowing) is Bardock, who he sends back in time to become the Super Saiyan Freeza fears. Come on, that's lame. In trying to save his planet, Bardock becomes the reason for its destruction. I wonder if he realizes this.

[Cold Skin]

In trying to save his planet, Bardock becomes the reason for its destruction.

I never even thought of that. I actually like it, it's kind of poetic tragedy, but all for the better I guess: the ruthless Saiyans were destroyed while the good Saiyans were spared and free to live in a new world (though Burdock was kind of exiled). Burdock might have done more good by failing to save his planet and even more by provoking its destruction. Somehow, it's almost like fate decided to get rid of that pesky race while it spared Saiyans that would become a positive force for the universe later... though it also spared two nasty Saiyans in the process, but they were a necessary evil for the good guys to go down the path we've all seen before our eager eyes...

Anyway, what I like about this special is that it's unusually poetic... Burdock was not evil enough to die, but still exiled and lived a discrete life in another time, while still having played an important role in the future story because of what he did back then. He has become the origin of a central element, while remaining in the shadows. The man himself won't be remembered, but he left an unmeasurable trace in the Dragon Ball story that will be known and central to many battles in the future. With this special, he is to Dragon Ball what Zack is to Final Fantasy VII: no character in the present timeline will know how much what he did was involved in their quest, but it definately was.

And I think that solitary "I've done my work, setting the basics of what would construct the plot in the future" shot at the end, when he walks away towards the sunset, is pretty beautiful as a symbol of his role. Okay, okay, I'm getting carried away... All of this to say there's something unusually poetic in the concept of this special, or that's how I feel anyway.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Its Dragon Ball timetravel... Bardock being sent into the past and becoming the legendary Super Saiyan of the timeline he is now in, doesn't necessarily mean he was the legendary Super Saiyan for the timeline he disappeared from.

[Chuquita]

I really enjoyed that fluid animation during the Bardock vs Chilled battle--that was a treat.

Plot-wise? I still mostly feel apathy towards it; didn't really interest me much aside from just getting to see a bit more of Bardock. If they were to create a series following his adventures through outer space from planet to planet as he tries to find a way back to the present day like a reverse Samurai Jack in Space, I'd watch it.

[Cold Skin]

Its Dragon Ball timetravel... Bardock being sent into the past and becoming the legendary Super Saiyan of the timeline he is now in, doesn't necessarily mean he was the legendary Super Saiyan for the timeline he disappeared from.

Ha! I forgot about that too! That complicates it all!

But then, maybe he landed on what was actually our timeline, which would explain why the scene with Freezer was different at the beginning. He became the Super Saiyan of the legend in our timeline, and the final moments of Burdock in our timeline was slightly changed, because like Trunks, just the presence of an additionnal being is enough to cause minor changes that define the new timeline being created.