Episode of Bardock: Giant On-Going Manga + Anime Discussion

[Titan]

What does the characters looking the way they do have to do with animation? I think you mean artwork.

Yes,i meant the character designs.

[Attitudefan]

There were quite a few changes in the artistic style of AT, so you should be comparing EOB's style to either one of these:

• style during Freeza's flashback of Bardock in the manga/anime;
• style present in the movie special about Bardock;
• end of the manga's style;
• newest/current drawing style of Toriyama.

Since the creator of EOB obviously didn't choose the style of the earlier arcs of DB, we're left with the 2 last options.

I know, but I couldn't help myself!

Anyways yeah, it's still not close enough to what he does today anyways. But if you are going to do a special of Bardock, do the style that was used at the time when Bardock was introduced/Freeza arc styles.


This should be fair now to compare to the image I used on the last page!
I got it from this old thread! http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=11312

[sangofe]

Don't forget Toriyama's new sketch included in the Special Selection DVD.

That is a very interesting drawing of Bardock.

[Attitudefan]

Don't forget Toriyama's new sketch included in the Special Selection DVD.

That is a very interesting drawing of Bardock.

It is, but I think it is not too great in terms of style :/

[VEGETA_DTX]

@Attitudefan, I'm so glad you agre! The nose's proportion shape and bad placement is indeed one of the worst things about this "new-age" style.

Now I want to address something that I was talking about before many times(perhaps I'll do a review about too). It is something that always shocks me, why so many fans never talk about it, it seems like they never noticed it, and its so hard to believe that they didn't after watching DBZ many times.

So many DBZ fans often say things such: "Goku was more this and that in this and that Saga, and Vegeta was more like this in this saga..."
Sure, there are some certain characteristics for some particular sagas, but I believe that the art style in Dragon Ball Z is varying much more on the per-episode basis than on per-saga basis...
Lets analyze it:

First 50ish episodes of DBZ were consistent on per-episode basis although the art style gradually started improving within that span. Then suddenly from, lets say, fiftieth episode the art style started using 4 major art styles that were cycling through the entire series including GT(although I take GT like it never happened not that I really dislike it that much, but for me it never existed ). I believe that is a consequence of the fact that TOEI has hired 4 or more artists/animators and each of them was responsible for a certain group of episodes that went on a certain pattern. Sometimes that pattern is used even in per-scene basis, but more rarely.
However this pattern is not noticeable in the DBZ movies and specials.

So in other words:

Episode A is drawn amazingly! When I say "Dragon Ball Z art style" I think of THAT particular art style. Most of the time its just bliss:




Episode B(the very next one) is drawn so poorly IMO, that it is even worse than this new Episode Of Bardock art style at least in most scenes(again no disrespect meant to any animator! I just express my personal taste).
The main characteristics of this certain art style are flatness, poor shading and a too much 2D feel, shapes are bad, way too asymmetrical, very small amount of detail...etc.




Episode C is generally better than the previously mentioned one but its still much worse than the main Dragon Ball Z art style mentioned in "Episode A" example.
The main characteristics of this certain art style are narrow chin and jaw hence smaller faces big foreheads. Also heads, fists and feet look more "trianglish".
This art style varies himself a lot, in terms of quality it can go down as bad as the Epidose B art style, but it can sometimes get as good as Episode A art style, it depends on the scene. However you can always clearly distinct it.



Episode D is the second best DBZ art style in my opinion. It looks similar to the art style in Episode A, but it does have clear differences, and it also can vary from a solidly bad to almost exact same as Episode A art style.
The main characteristics of this certain art style are chin is moved more up, hence jaw is more packed and kind of bulldog-like, longer necks and narrower place where neck and head merge.




And then that pattern cycles through the entire series in a certain way. Somewhere I have even wrote the exact way it goes, I believe I might have noticed even the 5th art style that went through the series but unfortunately I can't find that post of mine and I don't have much time now to write it from scratch but as soon as I get some time I hope I'll write it.

[Velasa]

Pardon my being late to the party, but I wanted to put my two cents in.

While I'm glad they made this and I'd like to see more... can't say I actually cared for it. I'm not a fan of the new kai-ey smooth clean art style, and the concept of the thing itself was silly. Bardock being the magical SSJ who saves friendly purple aliens? Just... oi. No. They tried to keep an edge to him by continuing to show his teammates and his world as his primary drive, but it just felt all very random and OOC. Did the manga explain what was going on any better?

At random I must say, Chilled's Richard Simmons getup kinda creeped me out a little. Anyone else thought the same thing? (I only read the last few pages of the thread here).

But in the end, new Dragonball animation is always good as it strikes up interest and can bring us more. Hell, this is the third animated bit that's sprung up since 08! Even if it's gooshy looking and random... God, I like movie 7 well enough and that's brainless and not terribly well animated. maybe it'll grow on me.

[AgitoZ]

Did the manga explain what was going on any better?

Explain what exactly any better?

At random I must say, Chilled's Richard Simmons getup kinda creeped me out a little. Anyone else thought the same thing? (I only read the last few pages of the thread here).

Nope.

In fact, I'd say Chilled looks down right adorable in his orange spandex/fur along with his little potbelly.

[Velasa]

Mainly how getting shot blew Bardock into the past, how far back he'd gone, ect...

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Mainly how getting shot blew Bardock into the past, how far back he'd gone, ect...

Giant planet destroying ki sphere+unmentioned psychic visions+planet actually exploding=time-space disturbance? Its a shonen manga/anime created to promote new form given to a character in a card game to really young boys, a logical explanation probably wasn't too high on their list of priorities.

BTW, it was a 1,000 years. Confirmed on the game website, but there is also the whole every 1,000 years legend and the guidebooks saying that the last (or first and only depending on the book) Super Saiyan was 1,000 years before Goku.

[Velasa]

Thanks for the time- I was bloody curious how far back in time the Icejin (since they still haven't given us a race name...) here is, because I'm a sucker for histories and it gives a basis for how long the Cold empire may have been around. This fellow's just a pirate and transformations blew his mind, so we know a little more ^_~ The fact that they were using the same model spaceship was.. odd, but that had a plot purpose I guess.

I knew there wouldn't be a detailed explanation on the whole time travel thing, but I didn't know if they tossed something out there as an off line.

[DNA]

Either I'm wrong or they don't even specify from which point do we consider a thousand years back? Goku's transformation or Planet Vegeta's destruction?

[ItsAllGood]

Did anyone else notice how mentally 'stable' Bardock was after his transformation? I'm sure that I've seen it mentioned that after the initial transformation, a SSJ is essentially incandescent rage incarnate, with very little control over their mind.

Perhaps the fact that Bardock had consistently transformed into his Oozaru form time and again has enabled him to control his initial transformation much more readily that Goku, and especially Gohan.

(As an aside - Note the inclusion of sparks surrounding his body just prior to his transformation? Cue the "Was Bardock a SSJ or SSJ2?" threads! )

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Guys, the new style being different from Toriyama's doesn't mean that it's awful... The art style in Dragon Ball franchise in general has changed millions of times from 1984 to 2011, can't you just accept something new? As for the round faces, Toriyama had drawn round faces in recent art, like the Kanzenban covers...

[NitroEX]

Episode B(the very next one) is drawn so poorly IMO, that it is even worse than this new Episode Of Bardock art style at least in most scenes(again no disrespect meant to any animator! I just express my personal taste).
The main characteristics of this certain art style are flatness, poor shading and a too much 2D feel, shapes are bad, way too asymmetrical, very small amount of detail...etc.

I HATED that art style so much. Whoever animated those episodes seriously could not draw Dragonball to save their life. The worst offence was during an episodes when Trunks powered up to Ascended Saiyan against Cell. The way they drew Trunks made his muscles look like balloons!

[JulieYBM]

I HATED that art style so much. Whoever animated those episodes seriously could not draw Dragonball to save their life. The worst offence was during an episodes when Trunks powered up to Ascended Saiyan against Cell. The way they drew Trunks made his muscles look like balloons!

That's an episode animated by Last House. Only two key animators were credited by name starting in the 140s for their episodes, one of them also being the animation supervisor. Before the Trunks episodes, when Uchiyama Masayuki was only supervising the animation, instead of key animating himself, their art was a lot better.

[VEGETA_DTX]

@DBZGTKOSDH,

can't you just accept something new?

Yes, but under the whole new separate title.
And that's what I believe things should always be about everything in this world.

If someone wants to make "something new, something different!" - great! I fully support you! but please "create a new folder for the new work" (figuratively speaking).
What is the point of the title, franchise and fandom in general if its not faithful to its original point, style and philosophy and if it changes dramatically through time? Then we might as well put everything "into one single folder" and make a mess out of everything ever created in this world...We would have no hierarchy, no history, nothing, hence no future as well.
In such type of fandom you wouldn't have anything to hold onto and say "I am fan of it because of THAT and THAT".

My English skills are still pretty bad but I hope you understand what I want to say.

If we would follow the philosophy of that certain type of a change, then we would all sooner or later end up being fans of pink flowers that shoot toothpaste at each other(random example) that HAPPENS TO BE called "Dragon Ball", because many years have passed and over the years Dragon Ball turned into such a franchise.
I'm sorry...open mindness is great, but only if filtered by principles.

P.S.
That being said I do not believe Episode Of Bardock is that much drastically changed, and it definitely deserves to be called Dragon Ball, but I still can't say I like its art style.

@NitroEX, I absolutely agree. Like I said, I don't want to be rude and disrespect anyone, but I really think their drawing is really reeeeeeally bad, at least for my taste.

@JulieYBM, I remember reading about it in more depth somewhere else, could you please provide me with some more information on that cause, I am extremely interested in the history behind this art style pattern. I've been analyzing this cause so much in the past where I had so much more time to do so.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What is the point of the title, franchise and fandom in general if its not faithful to its original point, style and philosophy and if it changes dramatically through time? Then we might as well put everything "into one single folder" and make a mess out of everything ever created in this world...We would have no hierarchy, no history, nothing, hence no future as well.

Toriyama has evolved & changed Dragon Ball's original point, style. Originaly, it was a comedy-adventure-fantasy style series, with Goku & friends looking for Dragon Balls. Eventualy, it become more serious and became took an action-fighting-kill-the-evil-multitransforming-guy style. Originaly, the art style was more rounded. Eventualy, the characters became more sqared. See?

[OutlawTorn]

I agree that the animation in "Yo Son Goku And His Friends Return!!" is awful.
I mean, the characters look like girls not warriors,because they are so slim.

Don't you mean the "style" in the special is awful? The animation is, well... the movement so unless the special was simply a series of still shots, I couldn't really say the animation itself was awful.

[SylentEcho]

I can't believe they compressed 3 mangas worth of content into a 20 minute episode. I thought it would be at least a 45 minute special.

It was so rushed and they also made it a little kiddish. Why would they do that? I mean it makes sense that they may be trying to reach out to a younger audience because the old fans are loyal, but what sense does it make? The kids can't read Dragon Ball anyway because of the nudity and the sexual references.

I'm sure if they made this one like their earlier movies, it would have been so much better. People would actually be talking about it a whole lot more.

[VEGETA_DTX]

What is the point of the title, franchise and fandom in general if its not faithful to its original point, style and philosophy and if it changes dramatically through time? Then we might as well put everything "into one single folder" and make a mess out of everything ever created in this world...We would have no hierarchy, no history, nothing, hence no future as well.

Toriyama has evolved & changed Dragon Ball's original point, style. Originaly, it was a comedy-adventure-fantasy style series, with Goku & friends looking for Dragon Balls. Eventualy, it become more serious and became took an action-fighting-kill-the-evil-multitransforming-guy style. Originaly, the art style was more rounded. Eventualy, the characters became more sqared. See?

I believe in following:

1.The original creator is the boss, its his franchise and ONLY HE can know exactly what he has in mind and how he wants to develop and improve his franchise. That's the bottom line as for that.

2.Of course that doesn't mean we all should blindly support anything that even original creator releases. If I don't like something I'll say it regardless of who was the author.

And 3rd but the most important point - Akira Toryiama in no way ever changed Dragon Ball's original point and style.
Dragon Ball was ALWAYS about fighting the evil and beating it, about persistence, never say die attitude, honesty, innocence, comedy(How's DBZ not a comedy as well?), proving that bad people can become good and that everyone should get a chance(in DB/Z when villain is beaten he often becomes good), and overall messages of DB/Z are the most moral and spiritual messages you could ever get, the absolute opposite of today's materialistic philosophies that we see in many western culture films and series...but ok that is some other topic.

ALL OF THAT was present in DB manga, DB anime, DBZ anime, movies, specials, even in GT(for me GT never happened but I do admit it follows the point of DB world) and pretty much everything where Akira Toriyama was involved.
So I don't see how did mr.Toriyama ever change the point and style of the DB?
Like I said even the Episode Of Bardock, which was not created by Akira Toriyama is FOR ME definitely belonging to the DB world, because its faithful to the DB...story wise, point wise and art style wise partially. So whether I like it or not, its up to me, but is it a DB? - yes it is!

Here's the example of what is certainly not Dragon Ball, what should never use the title of Dragon Ball, nor even be referred to the DB in any way(yet unfortunately it is) - Fox's Dragon Ball evolution movie. Just look at the whole style, message, point, everything! It's not that its completely different its almost completely OPPOSITE.

As for Drawing style it was more rounded and different once they were young and kids and it became more masculine and edgy once they grew up...I don't know if you like that change and if that makes sense to you, but I do like it and it does make sense to me. Regardless of it Goku was still a strong, energetic, enthusiastic, spiky hair guy, and same for all other characters...the point is still the same.
We all accept some certain changes in a certain way, some like this, some like that, but as long as the whole point, story and overall style is there it's all perfectly understandable.
Once Goku becomes a high school kid who reminds of EVERYTHING but of Goku in any possible way that's where the point of the title and the whole fandom is completely lost.