Unpopular DB opinions

[McDonaldsGuy]

Rock the Dragon was popular because Dragon Ball was popular, end of story.

The music helped in the USA. As well with the pacing (though they cut too much out in the beginning).

Somewhat, but if we didn't like DBZ, no one would've given a damn about the theme song.

What Funimation did was brilliant. Adopt it for specific audiences - in this case, young American males in the late 90s/early 00s. It's why Linkin Park DBZ videos were so popular back in the day.

It was also brilliant to start off with DBZ.

[ABED]

You mean change it for specific audience into something it's not. Then why bring it here if you don't want it? It's like when big studios hire an indy director for a big franchise but then use the green director's inexperience against them and remove what made them interesting. Why hire them if you don't want what makes them special?

Linkin Park DBZ videos were popular because they combined the action of a popular show and music from a popular band.

I can't believe this conversation keeps coming up but if DB has been popular all over the world regardless of the degree of change during adaptation, the logical inference is that the story has a universal quality to it. It's not the changes made to the source material that made DB popular, it's Toriyama's work that made it popular IN SPITE of the changes.

Why was it brilliant to start off with the story 1/3 of the way through?

[MasenkoHA]

It was also brilliant to start off with DBZ.

No it wasn’t it was the exact opposite of that. It was fucking stupid of them to skip to Dragon Ball Z. Skipping to Dragon Ball Z lead to

*A good majority of casual fans and even hardcore Z fans acting like Dragon Ball doesn’t exist and didn’t matter to the point Dragon Ball Z is used as a catch all term for the franchise as a whole


*Misguided beliefs that Dragon Ball is way different than Z because the majority of viewers saw it directly after the Cell saga (the most “serious” arc of the series) so the whiplash between Cell and Pilaf made people dismiss Dragon Ball as the goofy series and too many fans act like the Pilaf saga was how the entire Dragon Ball portion was when it had slowly switched to basically being “Dragon Ball Z” by the Piccolo saga if not the Tenshinhan saga

*Careless mistakes by the English dubbers, mainly in the Android/Cell saga where events referred to don't match up with what viewers would see in Dragon Ball


No matter what fans convinced themselves otherwise there was no good argument for skipping to Z nor did it make any sense. Why the fuck should I care about this Triclops and weird China doll kid? What the hell is up with this talking pig thing? Oh Krillin and Roshi died before the start of the series? Why are we talking about the Red Ribbon Army? Who the hell are they?

Oh sure people got into Dragon Ball Z anyways because the characters were punching and kicking and bleeding and people I think were drawn to Toriyama’s art work and the broader concepts but it’s really hard to actually care about most of these characters without Dragon Ball. No wonder the two most popular characters of the Toonami era, Vegeta and Trunks were introduced in Z or why fans were obsessed with Gohan being the main character.

[MyVisionity]

There is a system, just a very simple one - what Freeza says goes.

Yeah because he's the boss. That doesn't make him some kind of king or head of state. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, that a government and business are one in the same? That immoral or unethical businesses aren't truly businesses?

That's exactly what it makes him. How is he not a king or head of state? What makes someone a king or head of state? A business offers value for value. There are certainly unethical businessmen, but that isn't what drives Freeza. He likes physical power over people. You are the one that asserted he's not the head of state. How is his organization not like a government? I don't like the equivocation of economic power and political power. They are not the same thing.

Where is the system of government? Where is the policy? The territory? The hierarchy?

I don't think equivocation is the word you're looking for unless I'm mistaken.

If you don't think that economic power and political power are the same thing, then I guess you're saying you don't think Freeza's organization is a business. Value for value is being traded. That's how the organization operates. The planets are bought and sold among different alien species. Freeza's people broker the deals and wipe out the inhabitants.

What does having physical power over people have to do with anything? Freeza uses it to acquire his planets and keep his subordinates in check. It's ruthless business tactics.

[Planetnamek]

It was also brilliant to start off with DBZ.

No it wasn’t it was the exact opposite of that. It was fucking stupid of them to skip to Dragon Ball Z. Skipping to Dragon Ball Z lead to

*A good majority of casual fans and even hardcore Z fans acting like Dragon Ball doesn’t exist and didn’t matter to the point Dragon Ball Z is used as a catch all term for the franchise as a whole


*Misguided beliefs that Dragon Ball is way different than Z because the majority of viewers saw it directly after the Cell saga (the most “serious” arc of the series) so the whiplash between Cell and Pilaf made people dismiss Dragon Ball as the goofy series and too many fans act like the Pilaf saga was how the entire Dragon Ball portion was when it had slowly switched to basically being “Dragon Ball Z” by the Piccolo saga if not the Tenshinhan saga

*Careless mistakes by the English dubbers, mainly in the Android/Cell saga where events referred to don't match up with what viewers would see in Dragon Ball


No matter what fans convinced themselves otherwise there was no good argument for skipping to Z nor did it make any sense. Why the fuck should I care about this Triclops and weird China doll kid? What the hell is up with this talking pig thing? Oh Krillin and Roshi died before the start of the series? Why are we talking about the Red Ribbon Army? Who the hell are they?

Oh sure people got into Dragon Ball Z anyways because the characters were punching and kicking and bleeding and people I think were drawn to Toriyama’s art work and the broader concepts but it’s really hard to actually care about most of these characters without Dragon Ball. No wonder the two most popular characters of the Toonami era, Vegeta and Trunks were introduced in Z or why fans were obsessed with Gohan being the main character.

All good points but I disagree on the argument that it's "difficult to care about the characters" without having seen DB first, I found all of the DB characters pretty gripping from the first time I saw DBZ.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of whether or not Freeza’s business qualifies as a form of government, a major reason I’m iffy on that idea is because, if that is the case, then why does the Galactic Patrol officially recognize Freeza and his soldiers as criminals? That only really works if we assume that the Galactic Patrol is some sort of resistance group, but that clearly isn’t the case. The Galactic Patrol are intergalactic peacekeepers (though they’re obviously not very good at it), not a bunch of rebels fighting against an oppressive regime.

[ABED]

Yeah because he's the boss. That doesn't make him some kind of king or head of state. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, that a government and business are one in the same? That immoral or unethical businesses aren't truly businesses?

That's exactly what it makes him. How is he not a king or head of state? What makes someone a king or head of state? A business offers value for value. There are certainly unethical businessmen, but that isn't what drives Freeza. He likes physical power over people. You are the one that asserted he's not the head of state. How is his organization not like a government? I don't like the equivocation of economic power and political power. They are not the same thing.

Where is the system of government? Where is the policy? The territory? The hierarchy?

I don't think equivocation is the word you're looking for unless I'm mistaken.

If you don't think that economic power and political power are the same thing, then I guess you're saying you don't think Freeza's organization is a business. Value for value is being traded. That's how the organization operates. The planets are bought and sold among different alien species. Freeza's people broker the deals and wipe out the inhabitants.

What does having physical power over people have to do with anything? Freeza uses it to acquire his planets and keep his subordinates in check. It's ruthless business tactics.

Hierarchy is Freeza at the top, then his lieutenants, and then his pawns. It's a system based around strength. The territory is wherever he goes. Policy - whatever he says because who can stop him. System of government - absolute monarchy. It's simple but in a world where beings have the ability to destroy planets with a flick of their wrist, it would be a very simple power structure.

It is equivocation. Value for value isn't being traded. Stealing land and people and genocide aren't a business, it's maurading. By the way, even if I would classify the planet trade as a business, it's a state owned business. And it's not truely value for value because the people who are butchered aren't given anything. Their lives are ruined and property is stolen.

Governments are nothing but physical power. Last I check using force and fear to keep subordinates in check is also something governments do.

And clearly political power and economic power aren't the same thing. One is force, the other is accrued by offering better goods or service than another.

[MyVisionity]

Value for value isn't being traded. Stealing land and people and genocide aren't a business, it's maurading.

The people who buy the land from Freeza pay him, and they are given the land. How do the methods change this?

The hierarchy you describe can be said about any sort of business. That's just a typical organizational hierarchy. It doesn't make it a government.

Governments use force and fear, but so can businesses. Certainly a criminal organization like Freeza's.

[ABED]

Value for value isn't being traded. Stealing land and people and genocide aren't a business, it's maurading.

The people who buy the land from Freeza pay him, and they are given the land. How do the methods change this?

The hierarchy you describe can be said about any sort of business. That's just a typical organizational hierarchy. It doesn't make it a government.

Governments use force and fear, but so can businesses. Certainly a criminal organization like Freeza's.

Freeza's mostly concerned with power, not money. Businesses are about making money. He likes the wealth he takes, but he likes dominating people. It's not about money for him. He's a sadist, no matter how civilized he thinks he is.

And the methods do matter because in this case, the "business" isn't trading with every party to the transaction. That's not a business, that's thugery.

In business, bosses are accountable to someone, be it shareholders or customers ultimately. In an absolute monarchy, heads of state aren't accountable. Would you really consider Zarbon and Dodoria his employees? Do they get wages or just a share of the loot? I get that there is some overlap between governments and businesses. Hierarchy is a natural way of organizing a group. However since Freeza's organization's primary MO is murder and genocide, and Freeza's subordinates act like soldiers more than employees, it's way more apt to consider his organization a primitive form of government but a government none the less.

[Peach]

I think most of Dragon Ball Super is garbage. I prefer GT to it.

Part of me wishes we only got those three movies and the Tournaments were manga or game exclusive.

[Scsigs]

Rock the Dragon was popular because Dragon Ball was popular, end of story.

The music helped in the USA. As well with the pacing (though they cut too much out in the beginning).

I've heard people argue this, yet there's absolutely no correlation between the popularity of the show & its rescore for the US. Particularly because other countries kept the OG score & were fine, as well as later dubs keeping the original scores & doing fine, nor is the rescore essential for viewing the dub for Z unless you're a nostalgia fan.

[Danfun64]

Scsigs, I pretty much agree with everything you said except for that last statement.

The original dub, as bad as it is, is a finished product. The version of the dub shown on the Orange Bricks and onwards is based on an older base that isn't 100% in line with the original dub, meaning missing voice filters, (often problematic) alternate takes, and in the case of Faulconer specifically the occasional alternate placement. Plus there's the matter of the jarring partial redub.

Even if the dub was 100% in sync with the original except for using Kikuchi instead of Team Faulconer's stuff, there's still the matter of Kikuchi not fitting the dub well at all. The dub was meant to go with the cheap, in-your-face Team Faulconer score instead of the subtler (and often silent) Kikuchi arrangements.

Of course, if watching the DBZ series with an English dub is what you're after, Funimation Kai is still the best option as of this writing. When Ocean Kai comes out and we can grade it, we may never know.....

[Block88]

Nu broly is vastly overrated

[Block88]

I think most of Dragon Ball Super is garbage. I prefer GT to it.

Part of me wishes we only got those three movies and the Tournaments were manga or game exclusive.

That’s not an unpopular opinion

[Peach]

I think most of Dragon Ball Super is garbage. I prefer GT to it.

Part of me wishes we only got those three movies and the Tournaments were manga or game exclusive.

That’s not an unpopular opinion

It's not? Super seems praised on here and on YouTube.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

The Earthlings (all of them, going all the way back to General Blue) have more interesting movesets than any of the Saiyans and other aliens the series has introduced over the years.

[MasenkoHA]

Scsigs, I pretty much agree with everything you said except for that last statement.

I’m gonna hard disagree with you and agree with Scsigs here.

The original dub, as bad as it is, is a finished product.

Is it though? The mid-arc switch from the Ocean Group cast to the Texas cast is awkward as hell. And while the Faulconer music is some what in that wheelhouse of Wasserman it’s still pretty jarring.

There’s the option to watch the in-house uncut redub of episodes 1-67 and then the original in-house dub after but that would be even worse.

The version of the dub shown on the Orange Bricks and onwards is based on an older base that isn't 100% in line with the original dub, meaning missing voice filters, (often problematic) alternate takes, and in the case of Faulconer specifically the occasional alternate placement.

Not sure if any of that matters. It kind if sucks to lose the voice filter on Super Buu so now he sounds exactly like Raditz but oh well.

Plus there's the matter of the jarring partial redub.

It is jarring but it’s also about as jarring as going from Ocean to funi

Even if the dub was 100% in sync with the original except for using Kikuchi instead of Team Faulconer's stuff, there's still the matter of Kikuchi not fitting the dub well at all. The dub was meant to go with the cheap, in-your-face Team Faulconer score instead of the subtler (and often silent) Kikuchi arrangements.

And this is my biggest disagree. Other than the bad acting standing out a tad more the Kikuchi fits fine just as it did with the Dragon Ball dub. I can actually watch the Z dub with Kikuchi and just sort of grimace at the bad acting and dialog with Faulconer my toleration doesn’t go very far. Hell, if you’re going to watch the dub and you’re going to watch Dragon Ball first (as you should) watching Z dub with Kikuchi just makes the most sense instead of Kikuchi>Wasserman or Johnson>Faulconer.

Now, if you’re wanting your nostalgic experience then go with the old original Vancouver/Texas dub of Z.

Of course, if watching the DBZ series with an English dub is what you're after, Funimation Kai is still the best option as of this writing. When Ocean Kai comes out and we can grade it, we may never know.....

Regardless Kai inherits the problems of being Kai. If you want to see the whole package including the filler you won’t get that with Kai and then there’s the whole music fiasco. If you like Kai (i.e don’t want any filler and you don’t mind the music thing) then yes that is the best English option.

[Scsigs]

Nu broly is vastly overrated

Considering he's a rebooted version of the original, boring Broly, who was pretty base breaking to the fandom, & given better/actual & obvious motives, a better backstory, & is a part of one of the best movies in DB, as well as having a very good & important fight, I'd say he has the appropriate amount of hype around him.

[Kataphrut]

Nu broly is vastly overrated

Considering he's a rebooted version of the original, boring Broly, who was pretty base breaking to the fandom, & given better/actual & obvious motives, a better backstory, & is a part of one of the best movies in DB, as well as having a very good & important fight, I'd say he has the appropriate amount of hype around him.

What motives are those again?

Yeah, it's a good movie, but Broly himself is basically a MacGuffin for other characters to use. Paragus and Freeza want him as a tool for revenge, Goku wants yet another rival, Cheelai wants him to be free. He doesn't seem to want anything, he just does what he's told.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

What motives are those again?

Yeah, it's a good movie, but Broly himself is basically a MacGuffin for other characters to use. Paragus and Freeza want him as a tool for revenge, Goku wants yet another rival, Cheelai wants him to be free. He doesn't seem to want anything, he just does what he's told.

That's the only bit of the movie that really bothered me. The movie sets up a story of self-affirmation that never happens. We never see whether Paragus was right or whether Cheelai was right. We just see Broly going with whatever is in front of him and being violent about it (which, to me, points to Paragus having the better handle on who Broly was but whatever). The movie really needed a moment like Gohan vs Cell where the character takes a definitive stance on who he is and what he wants.