Gohan Out of Character at Cell Games? Let's end this debate.

[DBZAOTA482]

Those pics of Goku as Super Saiyan prove nothing. You can find plenty of pics with him with black hair and the same looks.

Has to be an error. Base Goku's eyes usually are incompletely outlined.

That's not the issue, the issue is Gohan's reticence to fight at the start of the battle. He's constantly eager to help out but the second he's called on, "Fighting is pointless."

I'm pretty sure he said that they're fight was meaningless not that fighting in general is meaningless.

[Godo]

Just a serious question here to everyone generally:

Do you believe that Gohan (after the Cell games) still held to his Cell games personality, or that he reverted back into his former self regarding his willingness to fight and help?

Myself, I can't help to see a Gohan who previously easily got enraged who loses this by the time of the Cell Games. I also see that this keeps happening in the Buu arc, as when when he fights Buu the first time, and also during his Dabra fight (regardless of his SSJ level).

My problem with considering this an "out of character moment" is that I believe that his character simply changed from the Cell games onward, even though the reason doesn't seem that established, or to some of you not even existent (which I can buy, since it's all about your interpretation).

That's why I think that the real question isn't whether he was "out of character" or not.

[ABED]

I'm pretty sure he said that they're fight was meaningless not that fighting in general is meaningless.

Doesn't really change anything.

Has to be an error. Base Goku's eyes usually are incompletely outlined.

Not sure what this means or what your point is.

My problem with considering this an "out of character moment" is that I believe that his character simply changed from the Cell games onward, even though the reason doesn't seem that established, or to some of you not even existent (which I can buy, since it's all about your interpretation).

There's some truth to this. I could buy Gohan changing, but it needs to be shown. Many of the comments on here about the Room of Spirit and Time changing him come off as fans desperately trying to make all the pieces fit.

[thatdbzguy]

I got my manga out, and this is what Gohan says during his little OOC moment:

Gohan: "L-let's not do this.....this battle is pointless....."

Gohan: "But I don't like to fight......like Dad does. I don't want to kill anybody.....not even somebody as awful as you."

Now, please, add on to that that Gohan all of a sudden developed an irrational fear of his power, and I'd like someone to explain to me how none of that is OOC.

[Godo]

There's some truth to this. I could buy Gohan changing, but it needs to be shown. Many of the comments on here about the Room of Spirit and Time changing him come off as fans desperately trying to make all the pieces fit.

Okay, disregarding the ROSAT completely, what about Gohan (for the first time) being the main fighter, instead of just being the support?
Think of Kuririn suddenly becoming the strongest fighter. I could totally see him doing the same thing.

[penguintruth]

How am I still explaining this to you?

He doesn't like fighting.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

What is the difficult concept here? What is the mind bending riddle in this?

He's not out of character. It's the way Gohan is.

[90sDBZ]

My theory is that it's because Gohan is a hybrid. I think he'd reached an age where his human side(Chi Chi side) had become more dominant than his Saiyan side. It's the same with people in real life. When they're young they take after one parent and as they get older they start to take after the other more.

What's interesting to note is that even the videogames seem to acknowledge the change in his character at that point. In the BT series Saiyan/Frieza saga Gohan always seems happy to have won the battle in his win quotes by shouting "We won!" or "Is this because of Mr Piccolo's training?". Cell Games Base/SS1 Gohan on the other hand is clearly portrayed as different. When he wins a battle he says "I mustn't do what my dad did" or "I have to go home and study". He certainly seemed to have matured in a sense. Perhaps he'd just gained more of an idea of who he wanted to be by then.

Or it could be possible that his initial lack of control of SS1 when he first transformed scared him to the point that he feared going beyond.

[mAcChaos]

Those pics of Goku as Super Saiyan prove nothing. You can find plenty of pics with him with black hair and the same looks.

Has to be an error. Base Goku's eyes usually are incompletely outlined.

OK so those pics you posted. They aren't drawn the same way. So are you agreeing with me?

I was saying that during those days of peace his eyes were drawn like base Goku even though he was in SSJ. Normally when he's in SSJ they look like the pics you posted.

Before that every single time he was in SSJ his eyes looked angry like that. But then he mastered it so it doesn't cause him rage anymore.

[ABED]

How am I still explaining this to you?

He doesn't like fighting.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

What is the difficult concept here? What is the mind bending riddle in this?

He's not out of character. It's the way Gohan is.

How many times do I have to reiterate, the issue isn't whether Gohan enjoys fighting, it's his reluctance to fight despite knowing the kind of being Cell is and it goes against what we had seen from him up to this point, Gohan eagerly wants to help. You are getting indignant over something that no one, as far as I can tell, is arguing.

[thatdbzguy]

How am I still explaining this to you?

He doesn't like fighting.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

What is the difficult concept here? What is the mind bending riddle in this?

He's not out of character. It's the way Gohan is.

That doesn't explain his sudden reluctance of fighting Cell despite jumping right in to battle with other villains before, or his sudden irrational fear of his power.

[penguintruth]

I've already addressed it.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

This is not what reluctance looks like.

[Kaboom]

Let's keep it shonen, folks.

I still like my simple explanation from earlier. Gohan doesn't mind fighting for fun or sport (like participating in the Budokai), and he doesn't mind fighting when it's necessary to save the Earth or his friends or whatever (like...well, a lot of times). But it's this combination of the two, where Cell's taken the fate of humanity and made a sick sadistic game out of it, that rubs Gohan the wrong way. He doesn't want to play along with how Cell's doing things.

[Flame Dragon]

Let's keep it shonen, folks.

I still like my simple explanation from earlier. Gohan doesn't mind fighting for fun or sport (like participating in the Budokai), and he doesn't mind fighting when it's necessary to save the Earth or his friends or whatever (like...well, a lot of times). But it's this combination of the two, where Cell's taken the fate of humanity and made a sick sadistic game out of it, that rubs Gohan the wrong way. He doesn't want to play along with how Cell's doing things.

This. This.

[mAcChaos]

How am I still explaining this to you?

He doesn't like fighting.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

What is the difficult concept here? What is the mind bending riddle in this?

He's not out of character. It's the way Gohan is.

his sudden irrational fear of his power.

It's not irrational. Just because nothing bad happened before doesn't mean he thinks nothing can go wrong.

It's like saying, "Nothing happened all the other times you went drunk driving. Why are you afraid of it?"

[ABED]

Kaboom, that's still a stretch, regardless of the form of the fight, Cell's still a universal threat so too damn bad for him thinking the fight is pointless.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kaboom, that's still a stretch, regardless of the form of the fight, Cell's still a universal threat so too damn bad for him thinking the fight is pointless.

Cell wasn't a universal thread until he came back as Super Perfect Cell (which, incidentally, is when he set himself up as a universal threat). Sure, he could have survived the Earth exploding after blowing it up like he planned, but what would happen next? He'd spend years, if not longer, trying to find another inhabited planet. He doesn't have a giant fleet of ships, or the resources of an interplanetary militant organization like Freeza does for getting around the universe quickly.

[rereboy]

I've already addressed it.

If you can't divorce the abstract of wanting to help from not actually desiring the violence of the fight itself, the problem is yours.

This is not what reluctance looks like.

That's the only time Gohan actually tries to attack Cell before going SSj2 in the manga. The only time. Everything else was just dodging or just standing there. That panel only proves that Gohan could have put up a much better fight agaisnt Cell even without SSJ2 than he actually did, if he had actually tried.

And you are right when you say that wanting to help is different from not liking to fight. But that's precisely the thing that makes Gohan appear out of character. Before the Cell games, despite not liking to fight, Gohan never hesitated or failed to act in order to help his family and friends, and in the Cell games he does these things. Its a development in his behavior that its most definitely a change from his previous self and one that appears out of nowhere. Of course you may think that its a natural development of his behavior in that situation and as such you don't believe that any more exposition or leading up to it was required, but I don't share that opinion. Without a little more exposition and a little more leading up to it, it just doesn't feel natural, it instead stands out as inconsistent and feels like just a reason to add drama to the situation.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I can't help but noticing that this thread which promised to "end the debate" has gone on for 7 pages worth of debate...

[ABED]

Kaboom, that's still a stretch, regardless of the form of the fight, Cell's still a universal threat so too damn bad for him thinking the fight is pointless.

Cell wasn't a universal thread until he came back as Super Perfect Cell (which, incidentally, is when he set himself up as a universal threat). Sure, he could have survived the Earth exploding after blowing it up like he planned, but what would happen next? He'd spend years, if not longer, trying to find another inhabited planet. He doesn't have a giant fleet of ships, or the resources of an interplanetary militant organization like Freeza does for getting around the universe quickly.

What does that have to do with anything? Cell has enormous power and if no one can stop him, he can destroy planet after planet. The fact that it won't be quickly is irrelevant. Even going with your POV, he's still a threat to the Earth.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kaboom, that's still a stretch, regardless of the form of the fight, Cell's still a universal threat so too damn bad for him thinking the fight is pointless.

Cell wasn't a universal thread until he came back as Super Perfect Cell (which, incidentally, is when he set himself up as a universal threat). Sure, he could have survived the Earth exploding after blowing it up like he planned, but what would happen next? He'd spend years, if not longer, trying to find another inhabited planet. He doesn't have a giant fleet of ships, or the resources of an interplanetary militant organization like Freeza does for getting around the universe quickly.

What does that have to do with anything? Cell has enormous power and if no one can stop him, he can destroy planet after planet. The fact that it won't be quickly is irrelevant. Even going with your POV, he's still a threat to the Earth.

Yeah, but without someway to get to other planets, he's not a universal threat, which is what I was responding to in your post. He's obviously a threat to Earth.