Adult Goku - Is He Even A Hero?

[Nikkolas]

Seems doubtful he ever actually loved his wife since he only agreed to marry her to honor his word, even though when he made the promise he had no idea what the hell was talking about.

He let the guy who murdered all his friends go based solely on the supremely selfish wish to fight him again someday. The dub tried to remedy this and make Goku appear less terrible but the original seems plain to me that he only had Kuririn spare Vegeta due to his unquenchable bloodlust. Also note Vegeta tried to murder everyone else on Earth as well so attempted genocide is another thing Goku shrugged off just because he wants to fight Vegeta again.

And I won't even get into Gohan and the Cell Games because, while this whole topic has probably been done to death, the Cell Games debacle is an even deader horse. I'll just point to Goku letting Dr. Gero go and continue building the Androids for 3 years as another example of how awful he is as a "hero."

I think my favorite is in the Buu Saga. THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE says flat-out that this matter is more important than Goku's or Vegeta's egos. What does Goku do? Indulge his ego, fight Vegeta and thus revive Buu who goes on to kill the human race. All Goku's fault.

What exactly makes Goku heroic or "pure of heart?" He seems downright detestable to me.

[Eire]

The series already established that "pure heart" can also mean "full of pure rage". So I would be cautious while using this term.

It's without doubt that Goku has lots of annoying traits- he puts his love of the fight above everything else, don't think about everyday necessities like money, abandons his family several times so he just can train. Basically a big baby. I would argue that he did love his family, but again it's a love of a child, who always knows that his mamma is always here to give him dinner and change diaper and never thinks that he should give anything from his own. You may blame him or his uprising- after all he never had anyone who could imprint a social patterns in his mind.

But to be fair in case of danger he fights for their life without hesitation. And I think it qualifies him as a hero. I've met a lots of professionals- medics, firefighters, rangers- who saved countless lifes, but were downright annoying in everyday life. Do they do it for love or selfish joy? Who cares, if it works?
I think that Toriyama may exacerbated as always, but in Goku he neatly described that type that drives people mad for 95% of the time, but you may think that this 5% makes up for everything... until he does it again.

[Rocketman]

Goku is a hero, but in the Ancient Greek sense of the word - a man with supreme martial ability who shows courage in the face of adversity. You'll notice there's no "of great moral character" there.

[ABED]

I think my favorite is in the Buu Saga. THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE says flat-out that this matter is more important than Goku's or Vegeta's egos. What does Goku do? Indulge his ego, fight Vegeta and thus revive Buu who goes on to kill the human race. All Goku's fault.

Even assuming it's not a massive retcon, it's not ALL Goku's fault. Vegeta deserves the bulk of the blame. What is with people putting the bulk of the blame at the hero's feet? Zod is intent on mass genocide, but let's blame Superman for collateral damage.

And I won't even get into Gohan and the Cell Games because, while this whole topic has probably been done to death, the Cell Games debacle is an even deader horse. I'll just point to Goku letting Dr. Gero go and continue building the Androids for 3 years as another example of how awful he is as a "hero."

You're right, this is a matter that's been put to bed - Gohan was the only one who could stop Cell.

Bloodlust implies Goku wants to kill Vegeta, he wants a challenge. I don't think the dub's attempt to claim Goku wanted to show mercy was better than Goku's "selfish" desire for a fight.

don't think about everyday necessities like money

It's not a necessity for him. He has all he needs without needing to trade.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think he's a hero, absolutely. Nobody said heroes had to be perfect.

I think some fans don't like to call Goku a "hero" out of fear that he'll be associated with the kind of "hero" that the "Season 3" English dub portrayed him to be...a Superman clone. No, he's not a Superman clone. He can be selfish--actually, he can be very selfish--and his lust for battle, which I attribute to his Saiyan heritage, has made a lot of situations more complicated than they may have otherwise needed to be. Having said that, he also has a strong sense of justice, and a strong desire to protect his family and friends (if there's any doubt about that, I would point to the X20 Kaioken scene as one of my instances of proof). So he's a flawed hero, but yes, I think he's a hero.

[ABED]

I think he's a hero, absolutely. Nobody said heroes had to be perfect. <br abp="685"><br abp="686">I think some fans don't like to call Goku a "hero" out of fear that he'll be associated with the kind of "hero" that the "Season 3" English dub portrayed him to be...a Superman clone. No, he's not a Superman clone. He can be selfish--actually, he can be very selfish--and his lust for battle, which I attribute to his Saiyan heritage, has made a lot of situations more complicated than they may have otherwise needed to be. Having said that, he also has a strong sense of justice, and a strong desire to protect his family and friends (if there's any doubt about that, I would point to the X20 Kaioken scene as one of my instances of proof). So he's a flawed hero, but yes, I think he's a hero.

I agree, though I don't think it's selfish to put the people you value in danger. That said, Goku's more dangerously naïve, than malicious or immoral.

[Nikkolas]

You're right, this is a matter that's been put to bed - Gohan was the only one who could stop Cell.

...the argument was never about if Gohan was the only person who could beat Cell. It's more along of Goku's huge retarded plan ie. not telling anyone he even had a plan, including the person vital to the plan's success.

Bloodlust implies Goku wants to kill Vegeta, he wants a challenge. I don't think the dub's attempt to claim Goku wanted to show mercy was better than Goku's "selfish" desire for a fight.

Goku had a knock-down all-out struggle to the death with Vegeta. If he wants to have more of those, I consider that bloodlust.

And please don't put selfish in quotes like it's debatable. It's not. Vegeta attempted to kill every last human on Earth due to a temper tantrum. Goku still said he could leave because he doesn't care about those billions of lives Vegeta was close to ending, or the fact they were all still in constant danger so long as Vegeta lived.

Goku put his thrist for violence above the welfare of the entire planet. That is the epitome of selfishness.

As for why people attack Goku/Superman and not Vegeta/Zod, probably because people have higher moral standards for their protagonists than their antagonists. Vegeta up to this point has been self-centered, short-sighted and basically a horrible excuse for a person. So when he continues to be self-centered and short-sighted in regards to Buu, nobody really blinks or notices.

Goku, being our supposed hero, is expected to conform to a higher level of decency. I suppose you could argue it's our fault for expecting something so noble from Goku, in which case you'd probably be right.

[UpFromTheSkies]

You're not taking into consideration Goku's absolute confidence in his ability to defeat any enemy he faces, and to overcome any situation no matter what, as well as his confidence in Gohan's ability during the Cell games. For Goku, there is no danger or risk involved, and everything is going to be just fine at the end of the day. However if something does go wrong, as it did during the Cell games, like a true hero he doesn't even think twice about giving his life to save his friends.

[Low Tone G]

You're not taking into consideration Goku's absolute confidence in his ability to defeat any enemy he faces, and to overcome any situation no matter what, as well as his confidence in Gohan's ability during the Cell games. For Goku, there is no danger or risk involved, and everything is going to be just fine at the end of the day. However if something does go wrong, as it did during the Cell games, like a true hero he doesn't even think twice about giving his life to save his friends.

Right! I didn't think that someone can question the fact that Goku is a hero! Of course he is naive, infantile and selfish because of his desire to fight. If he didn't let Frieza to go 100% power and kill him, what would peformance would that be? Goku everytime needs a challenge to get ready for even bigger troubles, if he killed Frieza at 50% power than he wouldn't train so hard for other threats, becuase the would be a too easy match. Goku didn't want to get the Godly power-up because it wasn't fair for him to use that borrowed power, I think that definitely shows Goku is hero in that sense that he doesn't want to get an advantage without deserving it. His personality is even more special due the fact that he wants to save everyone from danger, alone. The Cell Arc shows us how brave is he in reality. I'm not taling about the fact that he sacrificed himself for everyone, but that fact that he didn't want to come back to life, because he believed that so many threats that have appeared on Earth were because of him. In the Buu saga also, he stated he could have killed Fat Buu if he wanted to, still he wanted to let the kids to replace him, because he didn't belong to living world.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Goku is a hero, but in the Ancient Greek sense of the word - a man with supreme martial ability who shows courage in the face of adversity. You'll notice there's no "of great moral character" there.

I like this one a lot.

The same traits that make him the fighter and constant to his friends that he is don't translate very well to planet-protecting; I like BlackPaladin's phrase that they make "some fights more complicated than they should be". He never really learned how to prioritize like an adult, he seems to humor the idea that he can have both, that he can fight supervillains (distinguishing Piccolo or Freeza from Tenshihan or Yamcha) all he wants so long as he ultimately cleans up the mess. Seeing as he's died multiple times to fix his own bad calls he's consistent in that much.

Its probably at its most painful with Kid Buu, when it dawns on Goku he's lived the double-standard for so long that he hasn't killed Kid Buu because he's been using him as a super saiyan 3 punching bag- and he thought nothing of it.

[Doctor.]

Never was, never will be.

Goku's quite selfish some times, while what I understand from a hero is someone who always puts others ahead of himself.

[rereboy]

Hero

1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

4.Classical Mythology.
- a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
- (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
- (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.

Goku fits pretty much all definitions of hero. So, yeah, he is a hero. A hero doesn't have to be perfect or flawless to be a hero.

[Hellspawn28]

I guess Goku left Vegeta live because he felt like that deep down that he could be become good similar what happen with Piccolo.

[Doctor.]

I guess Goku left Vegeta live because he felt like that deep down that he could be become good similar what happen with Piccolo.

I say that's very likely since that's the same reason he gave Freeza two chances to live in the first place.

[Low Tone G]

I personally can not see Superman or Hercule from the Greek mythology greater hero than Goku is. Goku isn't omnipotent, still always he is the one to keeps the desired peace granted.

[ABED]

...the argument was never about if Gohan was the only person who could beat Cell. It's more along of Goku's huge retarded plan ie. not telling anyone he even had a plan, including the person vital to the plan's success.

That doesn't come off as being in character as much as the writer trying to create a sense of drama. It doesn't make a lick of sense, though.

Goku had a knock-down all-out struggle to the death with Vegeta. If he wants to have more of those, I consider that bloodlust.

Goku's in it to fight, not murder or for bloodshed. It's the opposite of bloodshed as he avoids killing if he can even when it's clearly dangerous.

And please don't put selfish in quotes like it's debatable. It's not. That is the epitome of selfishness.

No, if you're putting people you value in danger of being killed, that's not selfish. They are a value TO YOU. People have perverted the term to be automatically a negative. If it's bad and it hurts people, that's prima facie case of selfishness.

probably because people have higher moral standards for their protagonists than their antagonists.

They also have naïve moral standards. They put ALL of the onus the hero, even thought they were being attacked. So because the hero couldn't possibly stop people who were as strong as him from destroying people and buildings, he should be held responsible? Why is Goku solely responsible for Buu's resurrection when Vegeta was the one that let himself be turned by choice?

Goku is far from perfect, he has many failings that even he admits to, but to consider him on the level of a mass murderer is wrong.

he seems to humor the idea that he can have both, that he can fight supervillains (distinguishing Piccolo or Freeza from Tenshihan or Yamcha) all he wants so long as he ultimately cleans up the mess.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, which is one of a couple reasons I can't blame Goku for what happens in the Buu arc. Aside from Toriyama making things up as he goes along, I don't recall an instance of him putting anyone in danger unless he planned to clean up his own mess. At least with Vegeta, he planned to get stronger than him.

[MagicBox]

I guess Goku left Vegeta live because he felt like that deep down that he could be become good similar what happen with Piccolo.

I say that's very likely.

If I recall correctly, the dialogue in the scene itself confirms that to not be the case.

Kuririn says something along the lines of "I know what you're thinking! You think he's going to turn good, like Piccolo! But he's pure evil!"

And then Goku basically says "Er... nope. Nothin' like that. I just wanna fight him again."

I really like the way Rocketman worded his post, by the way. I think that sums the character up nicely.

[Dbzk1999]

And please don't put selfish in quotes like it's debatable. It's not. That is the epitome of selfishness.

No, if you're putting people you value in danger of being killed, that's not selfish. They are a value TO YOU. People have perverted the term to be automatically a negative. If it's bad and it hurts people, that's prima facie case of selfishness.

probably because people have higher moral standards for their protagonists than their antagonists.

They also have naïve moral standards. They put ALL of the onus the hero, even thought they were being attacked. So because the hero couldn't possibly stop people who were as strong as him from destroying people and buildings, he should be held responsible? Why is Goku solely responsible for Buu's resurrection when Vegeta was the one that let himself be turned by choice?

Probably because he didn't just use ssj3, KO vegeta, IT to buu and kill him

[ABED]

Probably because he didn't just use ssj3, KO vegeta, IT to buu and kill him

Which assumes Toriyama had thought of SS3 before he wrote the fight against Vegeta, and I already covered that in my previous post.

[Beji]

Nothing that hasn't been said but he is a hero. His character on the other hand makes him a hero like Godzilla is a hero. Only there when the world needs him..Then back under he goes. I'd say this really isn't much of an issue but since he has friends, like Bulma and especially Krillin, it's bothersome because he leaves everyone. When you watch Dragon Ball Kid Goku vs Z Goku it seems like he changes drastically especially when it comes to friends. The last episode of Z is almost depressing in a way. Goku doesn't visit Vegeta and Bulma for 5 years? How long has it been since he's seen Krillin? He has instant transmission he can teleport himself (and his family if he wanted) STRAIGHT to Bulma's or Krillin's for a barbecue. And then he takes Uub and leaves .. The 2008 special really made me feel better about him as a character even if it was to have a banquet but him not visiting for 5 years seems inexcusable and is rightfully detestable as a character at the end. Still a hero though.