Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[i'mfuckingevil]

Aren't Goku & his Friends Return, the Bardock Episode, and Battle of Gods all canon?

Episode of Bardock isn't canon, BOG is, and I'm not sure about Goku & Friends.

Goku and Friends must be canon since Tarble was mentioned in BoG.

Regarding the OP. I don't see how these new movies and such create plot holes? Vegeta didn't know SSG exists, nor did he need to tell anyone he had a brother. I don't see how the introduction of Beerus and Whis creates plot holes? Vegeta only recognized Beerus once he saw his face, I doubt Vegeta new his name back then let alone know who he was.

1 plot hole from goku & his friends return: "Aren't you forgetting something Kakarot?! You, your son and I are the only saiyans still alive!" -said by Vegeta in the Trunks saga, except he forgot he had a brother out there somewhere. His reaction in GAHFR wasn't "Tarble? I thought you were dead!" It was more along the lines of, "What are you doing here, little brother?"

1 plot hole from Bardock's episode: How in the fuck did Bardock survive and get sent into the past? And we've seen in the DBU that when time travel occurs, it creates new universes, and doesn't affect the same one twice. This story seemed like it affected the same one twice. And Bardock's power level (although we all know they're bullshit) was roughly the same as Goku's fighting Nappa. Goku needed several more zenkais before he reached SSJ, yet Bardock needed that one zenkai to speed him up to SSJ.

1 plot hole from BOG: Kid Buu was destroying the universe at the end of the DB manga. If this "god" Beerus can sense power levels, surely at the time Kid Buu was being rampant, he would've sensed the entire universe being demolished. Not that he would've cared, but it should've provided incentive for him to show up and fight him for a good challenge.

[Luso Saiyan]

I know I can ignore everything that came after the manga run, BUT, the reason me ignoring it is not the same as not acknowledging its importance to the franchise is because they're canon.

And that prevents you from ignoring them because...?

hich means whether or not I choose to acknowledge or ignore them, they matter and are a part of the story in the manga.

If you choose to ignore them, they cease to matter to you.

1 plot hole from Bardock's episode: How in the fuck did Bardock survive and get sent into the past?

Nobody knows but there are many possible explanations.

And we've seen in the DBU that when time travel occurs, it creates new universes, and doesn't affect the same one twice. This story seemed like it affected the same one twice.

'Seems' is no proof.

Goku needed several more zenkais before he reached SSJ

Since when is that (or its amount) ever established as a requirement?

1 plot hole from BOG: Kid Buu was destroying the universe at the end of the DB manga. If this "god" Beerus can sense power levels, surely at the time Kid Buu was being rampant, he would've sensed the entire universe being demolished.

He was sleeping.

[i'mfuckingevil]

I know I can ignore everything that came after the manga run, BUT, the reason me ignoring it is not the same as not acknowledging its importance to the franchise is because they're canon.

And that prevents you from ignoring them because...?

whether or not I acknowledge them, they happened.

If you choose to ignore them, they cease to matter to you.

they don't case to matter to me simply because in reality they are canon. just like with the HP series, I don't at all like that Harry married Ginny, I prefer to believe he married Luna but no matter how many times I say that to myself in my head, the fact of the matter is he married Ginny.

Nobody knows but there are many possible explanations.

and what would that be, space magic?

'Seems' is no proof.

the super saiyan is Freeza's akille's heel. It really SEEMED like Bardock's episode was supposed to set up the backstory as to why that is the case.

Since when is that (or its amount) ever established as a requirement?

It took a damn good load of zenkais for Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan to go SSJ, I'd say that's an establishment of requirement.

He was sleeping.

I saw BOG only once so I'm guilty of not being fully familiar with it all, but the story so far is just, a new powerful character that outdoes the hero. It's been recycled to death. So in the DBU, is there an endless amount of unknown characters who are on a pyramid scheme of power?

[Hellspawn28]

1 plot hole from goku & his friends return: "Aren't you forgetting something Kakarot?! You, your son and I are the only saiyans still alive!" -said by Vegeta in the Trunks saga, except he forgot he had a brother out there somewhere. His reaction in GAHFR wasn't "Tarble? I thought you were dead!" It was more along the lines of, "What are you doing here, little brother?"

I think it's very likely that Vegeta hates his little brother and refuses to admit that he has a little brother. That is the biggest explanation on why Tarble was never mention earlier in the series. Episode of Bardock should not be view canon to anything since Naho considers it to be a What If. Episode of Bardock most likely takes place in an alternate timeline similar to DB Movie 1-4 and the other 13 DBZ movies.

[Luso Saiyan]

whether or not I acknowledge them, they happened.

We're talking about you. If you ignore them, they don't happen to you. They are self contained fictional stories.

they don't case to matter to me simply because in reality they are canon.

So what? It's fiction, therefore you can ignore them and pretend they didn't happen.

just like with the HP series, I don't at all like that Harry married Ginny, I prefer to believe he married Luna but no matter how many times I say that to myself in my head, the fact of the matter is he married Ginny.

Not comparable (although you still can ignore the story itself). You're talking about a small detail on a big story. If you were talking about a spin-off, which the original work is not dependable on, then it's comparable.

and what would that be, space magic?

We're talking about an universe where people can be revived and seven magical marbles can grant almost any wish. Use your imagination.

the super saiyan is Freeza's akille's heel. It really SEEMED like Bardock's episode was supposed to set up the backstory as to why that is the case.

A paradox is not a plothole.

It took a damn good load of zenkais for Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan to go SSJ, I'd say that's an establishment of requirement.

Not for Goten and Trunks, for example. And even we were talking about pure Saiyans only, there still is no specific number ever mentioned as a requirement.

It's been recycled to death.

So what changed?

[i'mfuckingevil]

I think it's very likely that Vegeta hates his little brother and refuses to admit that he has a little brother. That is the biggest explanation on why Tarble was never mention earlier in the series. Episode of Bardock should not be view canon to anything since Naho considers it to be a What If. Episode of Bardock most likely takes place in an alternate timeline similar to DB Movie 1-4 and the other 13 DBZ movies.

Even then. He knew of his brother's existence, so if he was doubting Trunks's story, he could've thought of his brother at that point in time even to himself. He did not. Plot hole.

We're talking about you. If you ignore them, they don't happen to you. They are self contained fictional stories.

i don't represent the body of millions and possibly tens of millions of Dragon Ball fans worldwide. The majority of them see all this and believe it to be canon. The majority rules. I lose.

So what? It's fiction, therefore you can ignore them and pretend they didn't happen.

bro, whether or not I ignore them is irrelevant. If I'm having a conversation with someone about SSJ levels and I say SSJ3 Goku is the strongest character, most people will respond and say "Uh no, it's SSJGod Goku" and I reply, "I don't believe in that SSJGod shit." They'd probably laugh and say I am in denial. Because whether or not I like to admit it, I'm wrong. Because Akira created a level beyond SSJ3.

Not comparable (although you still can ignore the story itself). You're talking about a small detail on a big story. If you were talking about a spin-off, which the original work is not dependable on, then it's comparable.

OK. I guess you got me there.

We're talking about an universe where people can be revived and seven magical marbles can grant almost any wish. Use your imagination.

OK, I'm not trying to say the DBU is grounded in reality because it obviously ain't, but this thing adds another whole element to the lore that wasn't there before. This space magic. That's why it shouldn't and doesn't fit.

A paradox is not a plothole.

Why not? That's the way I've interpreted it.

Not for Goten and Trunks, for example. And even we were talking about pure Saiyans only, there still is no specific number ever mentioned as a requirement.

We don't know how exactly Trunks became a SSJ, do we? We know he achieved it at some point between his birth and before the world tournament saga but we don't know what he went through to get it. In Goten's case, Goku had achieved SSJ at that point and may have even been SSJ when he impregnated ChiChi. I think all of us agree that it was dumb of Akira to have made these children so we've resorted to writing out excuses for it, and I guess this is how I can allow it to make sense.

So what changed?

When is it ever going to end? I'd like to have thought the end of DBZ was good enough, but if we have this bunny looking "god" that can defeat a SSJ3 with a flick of a finger, who's to say there isn't another being in the universe greater than this "god" who can defeat him with a flick of a finger? And another being that can defeat that being with a flick of the finger? And another being that can defeat that being with a flick of the finger? And does the Saiyan DNA have enough transformations within its genetic material beyond its "god" form to be able to keep up with all these beings?

[Saiga]

That's exactly my point - it's so minor that I just don't get how that could be enough to bug someone, at least to that level. That would be like...suppose the manga had Boo arc Kuririn's hair cut so that you could still see the dots on his head. But then the anime had the dots covered. 'The dots aren't there, this is non-canon!' That...just seems silly.

Saying it's not in continuity doesn't mean it bugs them, though. It can easily just be "these are different, there's no explanation, moving on now".

And exactly what part of the plot is 'atrocious'? The only thing that I still call into question is the Super Saiyan God ritual itself. As for the fight scenes, there may be a few that didn't hit as good as they could have, but the parts in the cave (especially the water droplets not falling for a bit) and right after that (where the insert song plays) are good enough to make up for that, IMO.

Every serious part of the plot is atrocious. Literally anything that isn't a gag. Super Saiyan God ritual, SSG itself, godly ki, Vegeta's rage, the fights, everything.

I was actually thinking of those two fights in particular, since they were the main ones. They were quite poor.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Every serious part of the plot is atrocious. Literally anything that isn't a gag. Super Saiyan God ritual, SSG itself, godly ki, Vegeta's rage, the fights, everything.

I was actually thinking of those two fights in particular, since they were the main ones. They were quite poor.

And what's so bad about Super Saiyan God in-of-itself then? Godly ki, while a little suspect, is something else that I don't think we've seen enough of yet to make a full judgement on. Vegeta's rage I see absolutely no reason to hate.

Either we were watching two different sets of fights, or we have very different things we want out of them. The animation for the opening part of 'HERO' playing is amazing, and the water droplets falling in the cave scene is probably the single most creative way the series has ever tried to display a character's speed.

[hleV]

And what's so bad about Super Saiyan God in-of-itself then? Godly ki, while a little suspect, is something else that I don't think we've seen enough of yet to make a full judgement on. Vegeta's rage I see absolutely no reason to hate.

At this point I'd make a claim that you are blinded by your love for the series and aren't able to properly judge it because it has "DB" in its name. Must be an easy life when you're able to accept nonsense so easily. Some people see that something's wrong, and with so many arguments having had, they're not wrong about something being wrong, it's the other people who ignore that fact because they'd like for it to not be wrong. Not sure if I'm making any sense here. Which is more likely? That some people see that something (quite particular things) is wrong because it's wrong? Or that for some reason they're (and I'm talking about quite a few people) just seeing things.

The reason I like DB manga is because it's awesome, not because it's DB. The same doesn't go to most other DB media, because it's not awesome.

[EXBadguy]

Here's another thing I said at another thread, though I didn't think it fit, so I'ma say it here. And to the TC, this is another thing I'm siding with you on...somewhat.

SOME OF YOU guys here were so quick to point out ass pulls from the Cell saga, Buu saga, BOG, and even to an extent, the Saiyan saga. You guys were so quick to point out and complain about how dumb Gohan being the savior of the universe is after he destroyed Cell, how fucked up SSJ2 Gohan was, how fusion, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber(yes I call it that), and SSJ3 were Dues Ex Machinas, how Gohan in the Buu saga gets his potential released...again, etc., BUT when it comes to either Goku keeps getting many Zenkais in the Freeza saga or this new movie idea of Freeza coming back, found a way to get stronger, AND has "one final transformation", yall wanna hop on Toriyama's nuts because the Freeza saga was "the BEST SAGA EVARRRR!", RIGHT?!?!

I can really smell contradiction and hypocrisy on that one.

[rereboy]

they don't case to matter to me simply because in reality they are canon. just like with the HP series, I don't at all like that Harry married Ginny, I prefer to believe he married Luna but no matter how many times I say that to myself in my head, the fact of the matter is he married Ginny.

That's completely different. Harry marrying Ginny is part of the original work of Harry Potter. It wasn't made many years after the original work as a extra.

Being canon just means that is part of the same continuity (in-universe). But these movies are still just extras that aren't part of the original work, even if they belong in the continuity. That's why you can just ignore them. Ignoring the fact that Harry married Ginny, however, is really not the same because to ignore that you would be selectively ignoring part of the original work.

[Zephyr]

And what's so bad about Super Saiyan God in-of-itself then? Godly ki, while a little suspect, is something else that I don't think we've seen enough of yet to make a full judgement on. Vegeta's rage I see absolutely no reason to hate.

At this point I'd make a claim that you are blinded by your love for the series and aren't able to properly judge it because it has "DB" in its name. Must be an easy life when you're able to accept nonsense so easily. Some people see that something's wrong, and with so many arguments having had, they're not wrong about something being wrong, it's the other people who ignore that fact because they'd like for it to not be wrong.

I don't think that's quite the case. For some people, the nuances and finer details of the narrative of a series like Dragon Ball aren't the most important aspects of it. Inconsistency, continuity errors, and plotholes have been a problem since almost the very beginning, but many are able to shrug them off since it's fucking Dragon Ball; if you're into the series primarily for the finer plot details and the writing, or if plot-based discrepancies are all it takes for you to not enjoy a specific entry in it, it just doesn't seem like you're setting yourself up to have a good time. It has so much silliness ingrained into the mythos that makes so little sense under scrutiny to the point where its absolutely bizarre to see something that fragile being treated as though it ought to withstand the force of a tornado.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think that's quite the case. For some people, the nuances and finer details of the narrative of a series like Dragon Ball aren't the most important aspects of it. Inconsistency, continuity errors, and plotholes have been a problem since almost the very beginning, but many are able to shrug them off since it's fucking Dragon Ball; if you're into the series primarily for the finer plot details and the writing, or if plot-based discrepancies are all it takes for you to not enjoy a specific entry in it, it just doesn't seem like you're setting yourself up to have a good time. It has so much silliness ingrained into the mythos that makes so little sense under scrutiny to the point where its absolutely bizarre to see something that fragile being treated as though it ought to withstand the force of a tornado.

I agree completely with this. Dragon Ball is silly. Very silly. Even in it's serious moments it sometime doesn't take it self seriously. i.e. The Ginyu Force being thrown in during arguably the most mature point as far as storytelling goes that Dragon Ball has ever come to. Things like Super Saiyan God and God Ki may seem over the top and redundant but considering how the Dragon Ball universe itself runs on awesome nonsense, how is it not par for the course.

I personally the direction that Dragon Ball is going with these new movies. They remind me of the days of when Dragon Ball had charm and was so goofy and recognized how goofy it was and embraced that. Battle OF Gods is hands down the best Dragon Ball movie the franchise has ever had. It was really good action, really good comedy and the most entertaining and likeable villain Dragon Ball has ever had. It may seem weird to say this, but it seemed that characters in-univerese actually seemed to have genuine fun for the first time .. well.. ever. The 2008 OVA special was kind of precursor to what we were gonna get a few years down the road, with how it's tone was. I'd take personally Battle Of Gods over DBE, which honestly spat in the face of everything Dragon Ball represented and was loved for, any day of the week.

Lets hope the new Dragon Ball adventures through these movie keep going on for many years!

[i'mfuckingevil]

And what's so bad about Super Saiyan God in-of-itself then? Godly ki, while a little suspect, is something else that I don't think we've seen enough of yet to make a full judgement on. Vegeta's rage I see absolutely no reason to hate.

Either we were watching two different sets of fights, or we have very different things we want out of them. The animation for the opening part of 'HERO' playing is amazing, and the water droplets falling in the cave scene is probably the single most creative way the series has ever tried to display a character's speed.

As I've stated before (I'll just copy and paste) we have this bunny looking "god" that can defeat a SSJ3 with a flick of a finger, who's to say there isn't another being in the universe greater than this "god" who can defeat him with a flick of a finger? And another being that can defeat that being with a flick of the finger? And another being that can defeat that being with a flick of the finger? And does the Saiyan DNA have enough transformations within its genetic material beyond its "god" form to be able to keep up with all these beings?

At this point I'd make a claim that you are blinded by your love for the series and aren't able to properly judge it because it has "DB" in its name. Must be an easy life when you're able to accept nonsense so easily. Some people see that something's wrong, and with so many arguments having had, they're not wrong about something being wrong, it's the other people who ignore that fact because they'd like for it to not be wrong. Not sure if I'm making any sense here. Which is more likely? That some people see that something (quite particular things) is wrong because it's wrong? Or that for some reason they're (and I'm talking about quite a few people) just seeing things.

The reason I like DB manga is because it's awesome, not because it's DB. The same doesn't go to most other DB media, because it's not awesome.

You are making sense. That all made sense to me.

That's completely different. Harry marrying Ginny is part of the original work of Harry Potter. It wasn't made many years after the original work as a extra.

Being canon just means that is part of the same continuity (in-universe). But these movies are still just extras that aren't part of the original work, even if they belong in the continuity. That's why you can just ignore them. Ignoring the fact that Harry married Ginny, however, is really not the same because to ignore that you would be selectively ignoring part of the original work.

we've established this already

I don't think that's quite the case. For some people, the nuances and finer details of the narrative of a series like Dragon Ball aren't the most important aspects of it. Inconsistency, continuity errors, and plotholes have been a problem since almost the very beginning, but many are able to shrug them off since it's fucking Dragon Ball; if you're into the series primarily for the finer plot details and the writing, or if plot-based discrepancies are all it takes for you to not enjoy a specific entry in it, it just doesn't seem like you're setting yourself up to have a good time. It has so much silliness ingrained into the mythos that makes so little sense under scrutiny to the point where its absolutely bizarre to see something that fragile being treated as though it ought to withstand the force of a tornado.

This is true, but adding plot holes and inconsistencies to the already insurmountable ones doesn't make things any better. It never does.

[rereboy]

we've established this already

Apparently not, since otherwise you wouldn't compare it to Harry marrying Ginny.

[i'mfuckingevil]

Apparently not, since otherwise you wouldn't compare it to Harry marrying Ginny.

Apparently you like to skip around instead of read through, 'cause 9 posts above yours I already established the Ginny/Harry thing isn't a completely fair comparison.

[rereboy]

Ok, I apologize then, if that's so. Earlier in the topic, though, before you gave that example, I had already talked about these differences.

[Ashelia]

1 plot hole from goku & his friends return: "Aren't you forgetting something Kakarot?! You, your son and I are the only saiyans still alive!" -said by Vegeta in the Trunks saga, except he forgot he had a brother out there somewhere. His reaction in GAHFR wasn't "Tarble? I thought you were dead!" It was more along the lines of, "What are you doing here, little brother?"

I think it's very likely that Vegeta hates his little brother and refuses to admit that he has a little brother. That is the biggest explanation on why Tarble was never mention earlier in the series.

This idea has always bothered me because we shouldn't even have to think of a explanation, it should've been present in the special as "Vegeta, why didn't you say anything" for 20+ years is one of the first questions everyone asks. The long lost brother premise is just so shoehorned in that there was no thought into making sure Tarble's existence and lack of acknowledgment made sense. Even his appearance is somewhat questionable and seems ill thought out which adds to the dislike, luckily Naho fixed that so he at least looks like he belongs in the family (on his father's side) but it still took a second try lol.

After 25+ years adding in these family members now without proper explanations will never make sense, they will always be a needless plot hole. I put needless because answers are easy to make yet for some strange I don't know money blinded reason they are nowhere to be found beyond the fandom.

This is why I think there is so much division, why are there new inconsistencies? Some can accept them regardless while others just can't do it anymore.

[i'mfuckingevil]

Ok, I apologize then, if that's so. Earlier in the topic, though, before you gave that example, I had already talked about these differences.

Okay and if that's true then I should've responded to you, earlier. This thread's gotten a lot more responses than I thought it would. But good to see I'm not entirely alone in my train of thought.

[dbboxkaifan]

Aren't Goku & his Friends Return, the Bardock Episode, and Battle of Gods all canon?

Why does it matter if it's canon or not? Don't you enjoy it either way?

The movie was a travesty and deserves all the hate it gets. You mention the Transformers sequels but all of them are far far superior to DB Evolution. I wish DBE was even half as good as the worst Transformers movie.

As for the topic at hand there is no "all", there's been ONE movie and two specials. The movie itself was decent enough it was just hugely let down by being overly silly what with baby Pilaf and dancing Vegeta that's all. It was still far better than all the previous movies.

It was pretty average though not necessarily bad by any means, that is, unless we'd go into detail about being disloyal to its origins but when it was about to go out with a bang they messed that up and made the PICCOLO DAIMAO X GOKU battle too short which was rather the worst part of the film for me.

Btw, I watched the hyped as hell AVGN: The Movie just to realise it's a piece of sh!t movie that failed to deliver the greatness that the old AVGN videos used to have and I'd rather watch Dragon Ball: Evolution (in Japanese) over this.