What made GT so bad ?

[Cetra]

Or just the typical "He said it's a side story, meaning it is Non canon."

Fixed it.

The word was gaiden, which can mean "side story" or just "tale"

He didn't say Gaiden, he said "saido sutouri", which is side story in katakana, so still the same but not Gaiden.

[Xeogran]

GT is fine. It's on par with DBZ movies 1-13, yet I don't see many of the movies being hated on so much.

Well not really. I would rather enjoy a season with the Z-fighters traveling to Tapion's planet and dealing with Hirudegarn there. Seriously, Movie 13 had nice storytelling but it couldn't get more developed because there was no time for it.

[sintzu]

I think everything that's been said can be summed up into one sentence : It goes against everything that was established in DB/Z.

[Cetra]

I think everything that's been said can be summed up into one sentence : It goes against everything that was established in DB/Z.

Dragon Ball established inconsistency. LIke Saiyajin Saga Goku being faster (~20000 km/h) than Boo Saga Gohan (~3000 km/h) or Cell being able to regenerate even though he cannot and other stuff. Dragon Ball GT goes with that. Dragon Ball is serious science for people (...), but only unforgivable when it is about something that they do not like.

[sintzu]

Dragon Ball established inconsistency.

What I meant was it got rid of everything that made the first 2 great.

In terms of plot inconsistencies Gt is the worst out of the 3.

[Cetra]

Dragon Ball established inconsistency.

What I meant was it got rid of everything that made the first 2 great.

In terms of plot inconsistencies Gt is the worst out of the 3.

I cannot think of one thing that is worse than dead Cell regenerating from a plot hole. People always mention "Otherworld" as GT inconsistency but the thing is the Otherworld is lacking so many rules and explanation, you could write in pretty much everything. Why do people not cease to exist when the get defeated on Earth again? -> because they came back overcoming the rules of the otherworld anyway so they did not need to follow the normal natural rules of it when it comes to their state of existence, et cetera. That is no official explanation but such things being possible makes even the situations which seem weird plausible.

[Mystic Tien]

It is objectively worse than the first two series

Subjectively. There is no a fact if DB, DBZ or GT are better than each other. All of these are just opinions. I like original DB the most, but I am sure as hell that a lot of people like DBZ more than it.

Pan's inclusion in the main cast is a great call, but forgoing Super Saiyan with her is baffling and slightly problematic.

I don't see why she needed one to begin with. She was insanely strong even without it. With SSJ she would have one shotted any single villain in GT. No fun.

feel in some ways that disliking GT has become a sort of right of passage for fans, to the point that even more casually interested viewers will cite its supposed badness almost as a way of establishing ethos as a real fan. In part, yes, I can see the flaws. In others, I think some of its poor reputation owes to the fanbase's pre-occupation with relative powers and in-universe explanations, which GT is comparatively less concerned with (though, again, its problems are vastly exaggerated). There's a bit of an echo-chamber effect. People ought to at least be encouraged to give it a shot.

I find tons of flaws in DBZ and BoG, but I don't hate them.

- The writing was pretty bad compare to DB and DBZ
- The characters and story lines are not as memorable compare to DB and DBZ
- Goku has too much spot light
- The later half of GT feels rush and some things felt like that they where created to drawn in ratings (Super 17 saga and SSj4 Gogeta comes to mind)

GT to me gets a D- while DB gets a DB+ and DBZ gets a C+.

Not really, much better than anything in Buu arc post Vegeta's sacrifice.

Again disagree, as I liked all three arcs of GT more than 2 half of Buu arc.

Goku always had too much spot light. In all series, starting with DB. In Buu arc he was the one to defeat Buu, despite all this building up for both Gohan and Gotenks.

Buu saga also felt rushed for me, and pretty random. And SSJ3 was created... for what exactly? Just like Vegetto.

It will take a lot for you to convince me that FnF or the Fusion saga was better than GT in anyway.

FnF and the Fusion Saga has something major over GT: the supporting cast actually do something important.

Well, I can agree with Buu saga, but in FnF no one besides Goku or Vegeta did anything important from what I read in summary.

What I'd like to know is why GT is suddenly viewed as "non canon." How is a 64 episode program just disregarded by its fandom. People think BoG and RoF remove GT, but it doesn't. GT is after BoG and RoF. I think the hate of GT is weird.

The new movies' elements create major problems for the idea of their universes continuing on into GT. While they could conceivably be rectified, it would take some major events that I have trouble believing Toriyama would be interested in writing just so it could align with a previous anime series. Ain't no thang though. GT was already pretty cleanly a continuation of the original anime series rather than the manga, incorporating several anime-only elements into its plots. There's a whole wide (okay, still pretty small, but starting to be concretely acknowledged by ancillary media) Dragon Ball multiverse out there.

Inconsistencies and contradictions don't make something not canon. Manga, DBZ and BoG have plenty of it. Heck, a date of Planet Vegeta's destruction from manga is completely off with both DBZ and BoG, but no one mentions it. If Toei says that BoG is between Z and GT, then it is, no matter how stupid it sounds, and how much I disagree with it.

[Saiga]

It will take a lot for you to convince me that FnF or the Fusion saga was better than GT in anyway.

And you will never find me trying to convince someone that FnF has any redeeming qualities. I don't know what you're referring to with the Fusion saga, I assume it's based off the Funimation naming for part of the Boo arc but can't remember it off the top of my head. Oh well, any part of the Boo arc is far better to me than GT, even if I think the arc took a massive nose dive once fusion was introduced.

It seems like people give GT all the weight of the hate they have for some of the writing in Z but are either in denial or refuse to admit it. They just want to tell themselves GT was the worst thing ever released regardless of how bad Z is because they find more good in Z (despite GT's problems STILL just worsened problems carried over from Z and repackaged in modern Z). I don't get the double standard.

I really cannot stand the whole idea of making up your own reasons for what other fans think. Especially when they're so often really ridiculous explanations, like this one.

Please, stop coming up with your own theories of what people think deep down because you're not even close. To use myself as an example, I have no problem criticizing the parts of the original that I don't like. There's really no double standard because Z/the manga and GT are different so it shouldn't be so hard to understand how someone can like one and dislike the other.

[Mystic Tien]

Turning Gokû into a child.

Toriyama liked this idea, and wanted to use in his own manga, if he ever continued it.

Minor grievances are "ripping off plots that already happened in DB and Z", and "awful mid-late 90's clothes/hair; don't care if Toriyama was behind that or not".

Toriyama did it all the time. The evil demon, sealed a long time ago, who was confronted by bunch of pretty strong people, which resulted in him killing most of them, and only a few surviving and one of them later trying to face him once again to prevent a catastrophe. Who I am speaking about? Piccolo Daimao or Majin Buu? Androids designed by scientist, working for Red Ribbon army, to take over the world. Cell saga or Red Ribbon Army saga? Evil guy who brags to be the strongest in the universe, despises everyone besides himself, is very full of himself, despite being weaker than a lot of other beings and knowing it, and wants to collect Dragon Balls to make a wish for the immortality. Vegeta or Frieza? Saiyan Saga or Frieza Saga?

And to be honest, while concept of Tuffles was created by Toriyama, they were portrayed only in anime, and never mentioned in manga, so much of it was created by Toei. And idea of Shadow Dragons was pretty neat and original.

And yeah, Toriyama made these designs. He founds them good then.

Less so the (Freddy Mercury homage?) mustache Vegeta at the beginning of GT, because that's so-bad-it's-hilarious.

Toriyama did it.

What I'd like to know is why GT is suddenly viewed as "non canon." How is a 64 episode program just disregarded by its fandom. People think BoG and RoF remove GT, but it doesn't. GT is after BoG and RoF. I think the hate of GT is weird.

GT still exist as a product but GT and the new movies can't really exist with each other in the same timeline. Vegeta and Goku don't have their god forms in GT, Freeza never uses his new form against Goku when he had the perfect time to use it and also why would Freeza team with Cell if he's much weaker then him. A weakling like Cell won't do much to help Freeza to kill Goku. Toriyama comment on how Goku no longer need to use SSj2 & SSj3 also plays apart as well. At this rate, GT is another alternate timeline to the franchise just like how DB Movie 1-4 and DBZ Movies 1-13 are.

Goku is excited to fight with Uub in the end of manga, Planet Vegeta was destroyed 30 years ago from Goku's fight with Frieza, Frieza is shown to be in his normal form in hell with DBZ, as well as not being in cocoon, Toriyama himself mentioned that Pure Buu was reincarnated that fast, because he was pure evil, manga said that the guy who sealed old Kai was not as strong as Beerus, so either Beerus was weaker than Buu, and than the whole idea with Goku not being able to achieve this level of power is pointless, or it is an inconsistency, Vegeta got a rage boost out of nowhere in BoG. Kaio and Kaioshin sensing Godly Energy... while no one else does... while all Kaioshins besides East Kaioshin being killed by Buu. Who doesn't have any Godly Energy. And if he had... he was beaten by Goku, who didn't have it at the time. This also goes with Beerus presumably being weaker Buu, but having a Godly Energy.

Contradictions and inconsistencies don't matter.

Besides Toriyama is speaking about his manga. Always. He doesn't speak about anime. And he said "probably" anyway, which is not definite.

Again, why does it matter? GT was created earlier. No one is saying that DBZ can't happen after Kai, or something like this. Does it even matter if BoG and GT happen in the same timeline? Can BoG even happen in the same timeline as DBZ? Why does it matter if some new content happens in the same timeline as DBZ, or not, when the one timeline we are shown post Cell saga is just an alternate timeline created by both Trunks and Cell travelling back in time?

I think it's really interesting how of all things blueper saiyan was the one to override GT.

I think if anything from the new movies overrides GT, it the fact that not only are Pilaf Gang are children but they now apparently changed their goal of world domination to great wealth. And wasn't one of the reason they went looking for the Dragon Balls in GT, which effectively kick-started the whole plot of the show, was so that they could take over the world again? But for what's it worth, they did achieve their goal of great wealth in RF, by wishing for 1,000,000 zeni.

Tien also said that he would most likely never see all Z fighters again in the end of Cell saga, not only he returned in Buu saga to assist them, but he even visited a party in BoG and arrived to fight Frieza's goons in FnF.

They actually wanted to take over the world even in BoG.

My next goal is to be hugely wealthy!
Huh?
I-It's not world domination?
Getting a great deal of money comes first.
I've had enough of living the poor life.

And in FnF they were exactly shown collecting Dragon Balls once again, and Shu wished for money, just as was planned.

But the biggest thing is usually, if Toriyama isnt credited, it sucks... even with FnF having more plotholes... its GT.

RF does not have as many inconsistencies/plotholes as GT does.

It has more. Just like BoG and DBZ.

GT is fine. It's on par with DBZ movies 1-13, yet I don't see many of the movies being hated on so much.

Probably because GT was a sequel to DBZ and people where hype to see what the next big thing will be after DBZ. DBZ movies 1-13 where just movies made to cash in on the show while it was airing and where pretty much in their own stand alone timeline. No one really had any high hopes for them compare to GT.

Well... What changed now when? Why people have high hopes for movies?

I mean Goku getting cut by glass hurt by a giant clock ect.

Goku getting hurt by a rock. Goku getting hurt by a laser beam.

I think everything that's been said can be summed up into one sentence : It goes against everything that was established in DB/Z.

Even BoG is more suited for this. Because what was established in DBZ was that no matter how strong your enemy is, no matter how tough it is, you'll be able to eventually surpass and beat him by your own strength. While in BoG this didn't happen. GT really didn't go against anything from DB or DBZ. If actually, it developed concept of Tuffles, which was only slightly brought up in DBZ, developed Android 17 and 18's bonds, which were shown close to nothing in DBZ, as well as her bonds with Krillin and Marron, and finally has shown us that Earth relying on Dragon Balls all these years (even before Goku was born) was not a right thing. Old Kaioshin warned them, but they didn't listen, balance was ruined, and not only the whole Earth, but the whole universe was in danger of destruction (and not because of Goku or Vegeta for once), and all of this because of humans relying on some magical artifacts for years and not actually struggling to achieve what they wanted on their own, with hard work and training, as it always should have been.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I will briefly echo the sentiments of the late ImmaDeker and agree that in the right frame of mind, GT is enjoyable precisely for how much of a failure it was; it wanted to be a writer's series, but was too afraid to follow through and ended up a failed imitation of an artist's series.

Anyone here a Yu-gioh! fan? Anyone remember the largely-terrible Pyramid of Light movie? How it made a checklist of characters, conflicts, and story ideas taken from the Duelist Kingdom and Battle City arcs and that recycled them in the vaguest, least thought-out way possible while at the same time trying to make the proceedings a little darker than usual (at least by 4kids standards)? Oh, wait, that describes a lot of the DBZ movies. Now imagine those people writing a series. That is the easiest way to put it, really. It runs the gamut from the odd brilliant idea that Toriyama is not sentimental or grand enough to think of, to surface-level imitations of prior stories, to soulless filler fighting that really is just boring to watch.

Last I checked, GT ended early in part because Dragon Ball had been going on for so long that it was played out by the time it aired, and I cannot watch GT for long until it proclaims that from the rooftops- nearly twenty years later. Conversely, Battle of Gods was a revelation, in part, because it was proof that there actually was an authentic way to continue this story, even if it would likely start making some of GT's mistakes before too long by simply virtue of the point in the story its following.

[Mystic Tien]

Anyone here a Yu-gioh! fan? Anyone remember the largely-terrible Pyramid of Light movie? How it made a checklist of characters, conflicts, and story ideas taken from the Duelist Kingdom and Battle City arcs and that recycled them in the vaguest, least thought-out way possible while at the same time trying to make the proceedings a little darker than usual (at least by 4kids standards)? Oh, wait, that describes a lot of the DBZ movies. Now imagine those people writing a series. That is the easiest way to put it, really. It runs the gamut from the odd brilliant idea that Toriyama is not sentimental or grand enough to think of, to surface-level imitations of prior stories, to soulless filler fighting that really is just boring to watch.

I remember Duel Monsters, which pretty much ruined the whole story of manga, and made it as child friendly as possible. With this in mind, in comparison to GT, I really disliked DM, like I watched the first episode, and it was so terrible, that I probably never watched anything that bad in my whole life, after this I watched 10 episodes, it was still bad, and even after I watched the whole first arc, I still thought that it was awful... (Now, important part) But the more I watched series, the better it became and I finally began noticing that I actually like the series, and while I still think that Duelist Kingdom arc is pretty horrible, and I specifically rewatched 1 episode of DM and found it to be as bad, as I remembered it being, I don't hate the series anymore, I find it pretty good. While the series had a very bad start, it eventually became better in every single aspect. Voice acting became much more realistic, and Yami didn't sound like Yugi anymore, Kaiba didn't sound like some sick crazy guy, but like an anti-hero who he was supposed to be, even Honda started showing more emotions, dialogues and interactions of characters became much better, they finally started showing their personality somewhere in Battle City arc, and even story lines, both based on manga and not, became better. I especially like Waking the Dragons arc, and think that Jonouchi's fight with Valon was the best fight in the whole DM, while it happening only in DM, and never in manga, and Noah arc (despite how different Kaiba's flashback was from his manga's one) In comparison with DBZ and GT, for me both Season 0 and Yu-Gi-Oh manga are the best parts of franchise, leagues better than DM which was released after Season 0 and after some part of Duelist Kingdom arc was already made in manga, but I don't hate Duel Monsters, I don't claim it being bad, just because for me it is nothing even close to level of Season 0 and Yu-Gi-Oh manga, I don't watch the series, finding every singe inconsistency to show how much I hate it, etc, because I do not. It has flaws, it has a lot of flaws, it has a lot of things that don't make sense, but that isn't a reason enough to hate it.

So I don't understand why people do it with GT.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

...but I don't hate Duel Monsters, I don't claim it being bad, just because for me it is nothing even close to level of Season 0 and Yu-Gi-Oh manga, I don't watch the series, finding every singe inconsistency to show how much I hate it, etc, because I do not. It has flaws, it has a lot of flaws, it has a lot of things that don't make sense, but that isn't a reason enough to hate it.

So I don't understand why people do it with GT.

The funny thing is how some will argue that the Toei series was just as bad, or at least so bad as to not hold anything special over early Duel Monsters.

Otherwise, point taken.

[Hellspawn28]

I like the Buu saga more then GT since I felt like it was a lot of fun and had some creativity put into it. It's the worst written saga in GT but I do like how the saga try to have Goten & Trunks and Gohan be the main heroes before Goku had to save the day. Buu was a fun and unique which I didn't find that much with the GT main villains. Each form of Buu had their own personality, Buu also had a lot of suspense and build up to his appearance. Before Buu hatch out of his shell, Toriyama did a good job of the readers and viewers on what Buu can be. There was a lot of sense of imagination to Buu before you finally saw him and Toriyama finally surprise people with something that no one expected. A giant pink fat man that likes to eat cookies and candy.

With GT main villains, Super 17 and Yi Xing Long didn't really had that. Super 17 was just a powerful version of normal #17 and didn't have much personality or motivation. Yi Xing Long came out of nowhere without any type of build up to his appearance and was pretty horribly generic to. He didn't have much personality to him when you compare to older main villains in the series. Bebi is the best villain in GT but he's still Dr. Raichi 2.0 in my opinion. Unlike Dr. Raichi, he had personality to him but I still wish Bebi was more original though. The best saga in GT for me was the Shadow Dragon saga but I still enjoy the Buu saga above it (not much though).

[Chuquita]

Re: response I can't quote because I'm on mobile

I knew Toriyama was behind that stuff. Doesn't make me like it any more or dislike it any less. He doesn't get a free pass.
I'm still disappointed he ditched ssjg for ssjblue after all. (Well, for Gokû at least. I like blue Vegeta).

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think almost anyone knew what a Dr. Raichi was when the Bebi saga first premiered. Definitely not in the US. >.>

[Hellspawn28]

I don't think almost anyone knew what a Dr. Raichi was when the Bebi saga first premiered. Definitely not in the US. >.>

Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans came out a few years before the Bebi saga aired on TV. I think most fans in Japan watching GT was able to point it out since they most likely seen it. Plan to Eradicate also had fan subs on VHS and online when GT aired on Toonami. Most causals may not known watch it in the US but the hardcore fans and the causal fans who did their research online would have known when watching it at the time. Not to mention I also remember bringing up the similarities between the two on old message boards and chat rooms over 10 years ago. So it's nothing new.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think almost anyone knew what a Dr. Raichi was when the Bebi saga first premiered. Definitely not in the US. >.>

Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans came out a few years before the Bebi saga aired on TV. I think most fans in Japan watching GT was able to point it out since they most likely seen it. Plan to Eradicate also had fan subs on VHS and online when GT aired on Toonami. Most causals may not known watch it in the US but the hardcore fans and the causal fans who did their research online would have known when watching it at the time. Not to mention I also remember bringing up the similarities between the two on old message boards and chat rooms over 10 years ago. So it's nothing new.

I agree with you. I'm just saying, the general fanbase very likely did not know who Dr. Raichi was before seeing Bebi. The OVA was pretty obscure, even if all it took was some online research to learn about it. That, and most fans were probably very young when GT first aired. I'm sure some, like yourself, knew about it beforehand, but the majority didn't. Hell, they referred to it as "lost" in that one game. Not sure if this applies to Japan too though. =P

[Basaku]

Turning Gokû into a child.

Toriyama liked this idea, and wanted to use in his own manga, if he ever continued it.

That doesn't make a good idea, regardless if Toriyama liked it or would've came up with the same idea on his own. It's bad, pointless for the saga and Goku's character. The reality is that not every single one of Toriyama's ideas is a stroke of brilliance as some fans are convinced and not every single one of Toei's ideas is inherently inferior to all that Toriyama did. Nothing is ever perfectly black & white and fitting a desired 'narration'

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I like how you say it's a bad idea like that's a fact and not your subjective opinion.

[Basaku]

I like how you say it's a bad idea like that's a fact and not your subjective opinion.

"It would be a bad idea if Goku transformed into a fish for 60 episodes" statement is also not quite a fact and is a 'subjective' opinion, and yet you wouldn't find a single person on the planet who would think "ohh this sounds like a great idea for a sequel series!". So