Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[Attitudefan]

Vegeta was the one carrying out the genocides. People don't think about how they got the home they live on, but those that commit themselves to war, killing, genocide, and colonialism, such as Vegeta, love to fight and kill. He's guilty, more so than those who live on the planet afterwards. And saying that psychological damage on Vegeta would be too dark for shonen like DBZ, DBZ had genocide and people's heads being blown off, I think a bit of psychological impact could make it any more mature.

[Rocketman]

Humans don't go "Gee let's go have a fight to the death, that'll be swell".

Uh...yeah we do.

[dbzfan7]

Humans don't go "Gee let's go have a fight to the death, that'll be swell".

Uh...yeah we do.

My bad...the tiny insane minority of crazies. Unlike Saiyans where it's pretty much the majority who do like that.

[Saiga]

Humans don't go "Gee let's go have a fight to the death, that'll be swell".

Uh...yeah we do.

My bad...the tiny insane minority of crazies. Unlike Saiyans where it's pretty much the majority who do like that.

There are probably more humans who do that than Saiyans that were ever alive at one time.

[dbzfan7]

There are probably more humans who do that than Saiyans that were ever alive at one time.

Well we'd need some pretty good comparisons to draw that conclusion. How many humans legitimately want to fight to the death? How many humans have the bloodthirsty taste for battle like a Saiyan? By that I mean fighting to the death is what they want, and they don't consider any other way. Also taking extreme pleasure in it.

A thread is now made for this discussion
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=29213

[Dbzk1999]

There are probably more humans who do that than Saiyans that were ever alive at one time.

How many humans have the bloodthirsty taste for battle like a Saiyan?

Depends, how many people attended the roman gladiators

[RandomGuy96]

Gladiator fights were usually not to the death.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'd say it's more for his family than that. If earth goes, so does his family. He simply doesn't want to get them killed. He's also doesn't give two shits about his wrong doings and doesn't look at all to right them. If anyone asked him about his horrible deeds, he wouldn't really care about them. Mellowing out a killer does not make them pure. They just stopped killing.

He admitted in Boo arc that he came to like Earth & considered it his home, so I doubt it. And if he was still feeling good about killing people in the past, I doubt Porunga would consider him a not really bad guy, or that he would have been considered a righteous Saiyan for the Super Saiyan God ritual.

Also, nothing ever said that Vegeta is pure.

[dbzfan7]

I'd say it's more for his family than that. If earth goes, so does his family. He simply doesn't want to get them killed. He's also doesn't give two shits about his wrong doings and doesn't look at all to right them. If anyone asked him about his horrible deeds, he wouldn't really care about them. Mellowing out a killer does not make them pure. They just stopped killing.

He admitted in Boo arc that he came to like Earth & considered it his home, so I doubt it. And if he was still feeling good about killing people in the past, I doubt Porunga would consider him a not really bad guy, or that he would have been considered a righteous Saiyan for the Super Saiyan God ritual.

Also, nothing ever said that Vegeta is pure.

Vegeta ain't gonna give a fuck if some yahoo was killed. That's the kind of person he is. If some villain kills a bunch of earthlings, I doubt he'd care that much. Not in the way the other earthlings, Piccolo even, and Goku care. Vegeta isn't the kind who thinks "That bastard killed innocent lives". Porunga considered him not really such a bad guy as he's technically helping of his own will to stop a universal threat and bring people back. However he does it the saiyan way which pretty much is to make things harder than they need to be. Earth is his home in the sense he lives there. That is all. I don't see Vegeta getting riled up if some random earth woman or child was killed. He's simply no longer a psycho. He's attained peace, but he's still not exactly a good person. After everything he's done he's likely going to hell. Even when trying to save the universe from Boo with a suicide attempt, he still was deemed horrible.

I wouldn't even call him good. Neutral at best. He ain't the caring type beyond those he actually cares for. The only good things he does is because he gets to fight someone, nothing more.

[Dbzk1999]

Gladiator fights were usually not to the death.

I'm not talking about the gladiators
I'm talking about those who attended the colloseum and basically calling for blood

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta ain't gonna give a fuck if some yahoo was killed. That's the kind of person he is. If some villain kills a bunch of earthlings, I doubt he'd care that much. Not in the way the other earthlings, Piccolo even, and Goku care. Vegeta isn't the kind who thinks "That bastard killed innocent lives". Porunga considered him not really such a bad guy as he's technically helping of his own will to stop a universal threat and bring people back. However he does it the saiyan way which pretty much is to make things harder than they need to be. Earth is his home in the sense he lives there. That is all. I don't see Vegeta getting riled up if some random earth woman or child was killed. He's simply no longer a psycho. He's attained peace, but he's still not exactly a good person. After everything he's done he's likely going to hell. Even when trying to save the universe from Boo with a suicide attempt, he still was deemed horrible.

I wouldn't even call him good. Neutral at best. He ain't the caring type beyond those he actually cares for. The only good things he does is because he gets to fight someone, nothing more.

In the post-Boo arc anime, Vegeta gives his best to protect the Earthlings, and even gets injured in the process (M13), and he even considers himself an Earthling, and eventually becomes the Earth's main protector (GT). While these are anime-only and not from Toriyama, Toriyama seems to be going in the same way that Toei went with Vegeta's development, so I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see Vegeta acting like he did in M13 & GT in FnF, or any other potential Toriyama story in the future.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta ain't gonna give a fuck if some yahoo was killed. That's the kind of person he is. If some villain kills a bunch of earthlings, I doubt he'd care that much. Not in the way the other earthlings, Piccolo even, and Goku care. Vegeta isn't the kind who thinks "That bastard killed innocent lives". Porunga considered him not really such a bad guy as he's technically helping of his own will to stop a universal threat and bring people back. However he does it the saiyan way which pretty much is to make things harder than they need to be. Earth is his home in the sense he lives there. That is all. I don't see Vegeta getting riled up if some random earth woman or child was killed. He's simply no longer a psycho. He's attained peace, but he's still not exactly a good person. After everything he's done he's likely going to hell. Even when trying to save the universe from Boo with a suicide attempt, he still was deemed horrible.

I wouldn't even call him good. Neutral at best. He ain't the caring type beyond those he actually cares for. The only good things he does is because he gets to fight someone, nothing more.

In the post-Boo arc anime, Vegeta gives his best to protect the Earthlings, and even gets injured in the process (M13), and he even considers himself an Earthling, and eventually becomes the Earth's main protector (GT). While these are anime-only and not from Toriyama, Toriyama seems to be going in the same way that Toei went with Vegeta's development, so I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see Vegeta acting like he did in M13 & GT in FnF, or any other potential Toriyama story in the future.

Toei has their own characterizations for characters. A lot of people despise GT Goku for how childish he is in comparison to his adult self. Like that scene where Gohan see's a bunch of corpses near Babidi's ship, I don't see Vegeta feeling the same way. Even while he planned to atone and basically save the entire universe with a suicide move from Boo, he was still going to hell. Didn't matter if he was basically saving the universe, he was still going to lose everything if not for Enma breaking the rules. He's Chaotic Neutral at best.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toei has their own characterizations for characters. A lot of people despise GT Goku for how childish he is in comparison to his adult self. Like that scene where Gohan see's a bunch of corpses near Babidi's ship, I don't see Vegeta feeling the same way. Even while he planned to atone and basically save the entire universe with a suicide move from Boo, he was still going to hell. Didn't matter if he was basically saving the universe, he was still going to lose everything if not for Enma breaking the rules. He's Chaotic Neutral at best.

You are talking about Vegeta during early Boo arc, I'm talking about Vegeta from BoG and later on. Vegeta has changed in these 4 years. He even changed during the end of Boo arc, compared to how he was in the beginning.

I'm aware that the anime is Toei's story, my point is that Toriyama seems to be heading in the same direction Toei went with Vegeta. As for GT Goku, Goku was always a man-child, the fans that are complaining are FUNi dub fans.

[dbzfan7]

Toei has their own characterizations for characters. A lot of people despise GT Goku for how childish he is in comparison to his adult self. Like that scene where Gohan see's a bunch of corpses near Babidi's ship, I don't see Vegeta feeling the same way. Even while he planned to atone and basically save the entire universe with a suicide move from Boo, he was still going to hell. Didn't matter if he was basically saving the universe, he was still going to lose everything if not for Enma breaking the rules. He's Chaotic Neutral at best.

You are talking about Vegeta during early Boo arc, I'm talking about Vegeta from BoG and later on. Vegeta has changed in these 4 years. He even changed during the end of Boo arc, compared to how he was in the beginning.

I'm aware that the anime is Toei's story, my point is that Toriyama seems to be heading in the same direction Toei went with Vegeta. As for GT Goku, Goku was always a man-child, the fans that are complaining are FUNi dub fans.

He isn't that much different though. The point is he could be as selfless as he wants to be, and yet in the end he's just not a really bad person. He's chaotic neutral. His massive wrong doings aren't forgiven. My point with the suicide attack is that Vegeta would technically be saving far more lives than he's ended, and yet that hardly matters.

Yeah possibly...he did the same with Bardock too, and people aren't happy about what he did to Bardock. My point with GT Goku was actually based here as I started a GT thread with practically everyone not liking Kid Goku GT, which I wasn't bothered by.

[Friezacooler]

Vegeta hasn't done anything bad in the Manga I guess.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He isn't that much different though. The point is he could be as selfless as he wants to be, and yet in the end he's just not a really bad person. He's chaotic neutral. His massive wrong doings aren't forgiven. My point with the suicide attack is that Vegeta would technically be saving far more lives than he's ended, and yet that hardly matters.

Well, I don't believe that Vegeta has any chance of not going to Hell, except if the Kaioshin can order Enma Daio to let Vegeta keep his body & go to Heaven because he became a better person than he was before. I don't believe that Vegeta feels good with his crimes from the past, because I don't believe Porunga would have brought him back to life if he felt good for that, nor would he be able to participate in the creation of a Super Saiyan God. He has grown to love his family & Earth, and he now even places his pride aside in order to protect them. Even though he is serious & mean all the time, and doesn't show his good feelings easily, he is probably a better protector of the Earth than Goku now (in BoG).

[dbzfan7]

He isn't that much different though. The point is he could be as selfless as he wants to be, and yet in the end he's just not a really bad person. He's chaotic neutral. His massive wrong doings aren't forgiven. My point with the suicide attack is that Vegeta would technically be saving far more lives than he's ended, and yet that hardly matters.

Well, I don't believe that Vegeta has any chance of not going to Hell, except if the Kaioshin can order Enma Daio to let Vegeta keep his body & go to Heaven because he became a better person than he was before. I don't believe that Vegeta feels good with his crimes from the past, because I don't believe Porunga would have brought him back to life if he felt good for that, nor would he be able to participate in the creation of a Super Saiyan God. He has grown to love his family & Earth, and he now even places his pride aside in order to protect them. Even though he is serious & mean all the time, and doesn't show his good feelings easily, he is probably a better protector of the Earth than Goku now (in BoG).

Vegeta doesn't take nearly as much pleasure in killing no more. He simply doesn't CARE. If anyone asked him about his previous victims, he wouldn't feel bad, he just wouldn't care. He wouldn't say he delighted in their pain like when he bragged to the nameks, he just simply doesn't care. According to my manga, the wish states to not bring back the really evil ones. That just means Vegeta isn't very evil, but that doesn't mean good either. The wish didn't say to bring back only good or pure people, just not the really bad people. Pilaf probably died among the earthlings, and he was brought back despite being evil. He's evil, but not considered very evil like Dabura or Babidi. Evil people were very likely wished back, just not the really evil sinister people. Vegeta isn't looking to hurt no more, but he isn't really looking to do good either.

[FoolsGil]

Yes. And it's not because of what he's done in the past. It's because he keeps backsliding in front of the other protagonists.

Let's give Vegeta a clean slate after the Freeza Saga for this. So, absolved of all his sins up to that point.

Android / Cell Saga
-He often threatens the other Z Fighters with death.
-He makes it clear under no uncertain terms that he wishes to kill Goku, even admitting it to his face.
-Achieved Super Saiyan with a pure evil heart.
-Not sure if it was filler, but when he was fighting Eighteen, he killed random pedestrians who were in the way
-He's a terrible parent and lover, apparently.

Now one would say "Oh, that's Vegeta being Vegeta!" and "We can wish those (probably filler) pedestrians back with the balls!" Well it all comes to a head when he allows Cell to gain his perfect form. (to be fair, Krillin was also forgiven easily for destroying the switch off button) He has now put everyone in danger to get his kicks. And he got no comeuppance for this or anything, and it was all swept under the rug so everyone can do more training.

Buu Saga
-He allows himself to become Majin, blows up a score of people to piss off Goku, yards away from Bulma and the others.

Now one would say "Oh, that's Vegeta being Vegeta!" and "We can wish those spectators back with the balls!" Well Majin Vegeta decided that it was more important to goad Goku into a fight and willingly unleash Majin Buu. (Though yes Goku was too easily forgiven for not going SSJ3 and ending everything in one punch.) And this time, 99.9999% of the earth population was wiped off, and then the earth was successfully blown up.

So even on the side of heroes Vegeta has killed scores of people, spoke ill of his allies and loved ones, endangered the Earth once for his own ego, and was responsible for the Earth's Destruction due to negligence. He was too easily forgiven. At least Goku has saved the Earth twice beforehand and stopped Freeza's continued reign on the universe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta doesn't take nearly as much pleasure in killing no more. He simply doesn't CARE. If anyone asked him about his previous victims, he wouldn't feel bad, he just wouldn't care. He wouldn't say he delighted in their pain like when he bragged to the nameks, he just simply doesn't care. According to my manga, the wish states to not bring back the really evil ones. That just means Vegeta isn't very evil, but that doesn't mean good either. The wish didn't say to bring back only good or pure people, just not the really bad people. Pilaf probably died among the earthlings, and he was brought back despite being evil. He's evil, but not considered very evil like Dabura or Babidi. Evil people were very likely wished back, just not the really evil sinister people. Vegeta isn't looking to hurt no more, but he isn't really looking to do good either.

You can't prove what you are saying, it's what you believe about Vegeta's character. And it makes perfect sense to think that, but it's not a fact. I'm not saying that Toei's Vegeta is definitely how Toriyama's Vegeta is from BoG and beyond, I'm saying that it's possible that they are very similar, since they have shown similarities so far.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta doesn't take nearly as much pleasure in killing no more. He simply doesn't CARE. If anyone asked him about his previous victims, he wouldn't feel bad, he just wouldn't care. He wouldn't say he delighted in their pain like when he bragged to the nameks, he just simply doesn't care. According to my manga, the wish states to not bring back the really evil ones. That just means Vegeta isn't very evil, but that doesn't mean good either. The wish didn't say to bring back only good or pure people, just not the really bad people. Pilaf probably died among the earthlings, and he was brought back despite being evil. He's evil, but not considered very evil like Dabura or Babidi. Evil people were very likely wished back, just not the really evil sinister people. Vegeta isn't looking to hurt no more, but he isn't really looking to do good either.

You can't prove what you are saying, it's what you believe about Vegeta's character. And it makes perfect sense to think that, but it's not a fact. I'm not saying that Toei's Vegeta is definitely how Toriyama's Vegeta is from BoG and beyond, I'm saying that it's possible that they are very similar, since they have shown similarities so far.

If that's really all you've got to say back, then there's nothing else to carry out this conversation. If the wish was really for only good people. Then no looters, muggers, small time bad guys, or anything in that regard are coming back. Yet Pilaf and his cronies came back, solidifying that you don't have to be good to be wished back, just not super evil like Dabura or Babidi. Toei's Bardock is also different from Toriyama's too.