Overused characters?

[SSJ Human]

Gotenks. Not because he gets a lot of screen time, but because he's the only Fusion we ever see, even though you'd think all the other, far stronger Z fighters would have Fused into different kinds of new warriors by now.

But no. Just Goten and Trunks.

I'm inclined to agree with you. When was the last time we saw Gogeta in animation? GT?

[Dyno]

After his death, he has been featured in Dragon Ball GT, Hatchyack's OVA, Movie 12 and plenty of games.

I don't know how he Freeza can't appear in plenty of video games considering he is one of the main villains of the franchise and plays an integral role in the plot.

back in Tarble's OVA he is mentioned

Abo and Kado were are apart of the PTO. That was run by... Freeza. Why wouldn't you expect him to get mentioned?

he appears in Episode of Bardock

he appears in Battle of Gods.

Both of those instances were just flashbacks of significant events that Freeza was integrally involved in. In BOG, it was when Goku became a SSJ and in EOB it was when Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta.

I'll answer you summarizing what you told me so far: Those are not an excuse at all, Freeza is now as overused as Bardock.

[Gonstead]

I'll answer you summarizing what you told me so far: Those are not an excuse at all, Freeza is now as overused as Bardock.

What... excuses are there exactly? If anything, you are avoiding making any sort of decent counter claims to back up your viewpoint.

[Dyno]

The same you used to insist on saying Bardock is overused, if he is, then Freeza is as well.

[TheGmGoken]

Gotenks. Not because he gets a lot of screen time, but because he's the only Fusion we ever see, even though you'd think all the other, far stronger Z fighters would have Fused into different kinds of new warriors by now.

But no. Just Goten and Trunks.

What? Overused? He was used three times. How is that overused? We didn't even see him often either. Before BoG we saw him in 2008. A 5 year difference. Before that was like
May 25th 1995 due to the anime(July 15, 1995 for Movie 13). He's not overused at all. Gotenks isn't the only fusion either.
You're definition of overused is flat out wrong. More like hatred for the character because of the two people who got them. Or anger that only two characters in the manga uses the fusion dance.

To break away from Bardock and Broly (who aren't really overused outside of video games where EVERYONE is overused) I'll say either Beerus being injected to too much history (Sealing Elder Kai away for example) and Shenron. Shenron is basically a reverse button with no credibility no more.

[Gonstead]

The same you used to insist on saying Bardock is overused, if he is, then Freeza is as well.

No. Zephyr, Eire, Doctor and almost everyone else in this topic has put forward how they think Bardock is overused as a character with rational explanations explaining why they see it that way.

You on the other hand have not offered anything of the sort. You say Frieza is overused? Great! Let's hear it then. Be a part of the crowd and actually give us something detailed and rational that explains why you think as such. Be constructive, not destructive.

Right now though, you're not offering anything valuable to the conversation at hand. The most you have done is list his known appearances but not actually do anything with them.

[Cipher]

I think the difference between Freeza and Bardock, at least in my reaction to them, is that Freeza was always meant to be a big-time player, and was already well on his role toward becoming a recurring villain in Toei's use of him before the series first wrapped in '96 (with his extra appearances in the Z anime, movie 12, and GT). He has a larger-than-life personality and enough iconography that it always makes it fun to see him again, even in a reduced capacity, and by and large it doesn't change his place in the story. I can see the argument that his later appearances might reduce the weight he carries in his introductory arc, but I don't think it changes all that much.

Bardock, on the other hand, was designed as an incidental character, and extra adventures for him, particularly those that put him at the historical fore of the Dragon Ball universe, rather do change his story, and some of the underlying logic of the series. He's not nearly as colorful or fun as Freeza, and doesn't have a role (iconic villain) that allows for him to easily pop up again. His extra appearances don't affect any versions of continuity that I ascribe to, so it's not so much that I'm concerned with him actually impacting the story, but the way in which his extra roles have functioned even as apocrypha are rather frustrating, and on the whole I'm worn out by it. He was always best as a one-off character, and recent ancillary material has had to jump through narrative hurdles to bring him back, to what end and whose pleasure, I'm not sure.

God damn if it hasn't muddied up his character, too. Freeza's role as a villain has allowed him to remain consistent throughout his appearances. Bardock -- what even is his character, according to ancillary material now?

[Zephyr]

Has Bardock even had any real personality traits that set him apart? He's loyal to his comrades, he doesn't want his race to be wiped out, he loves his family, etc.

So what, he's your average soldier in the United States military? Hell, any soldier in any army in the real world? That really doesn't warrant being brought back and being sent on more adventures. He's hardly even a character. Even Broly stands out more than Bardock does in the personality department. He has a deep rooted grudge against Goku which differs in its rationale from Vegeta's grudge, and he's a hulking monster, which isn't actually that normal for big bad villains by Dragon Ball standards.

[Kid Buu]

One thing I'd like to point out that separates Bardock's overexposure from others is that Bardock is literally the main character in his specials, a treatment none of the other characters get. Like Broli has three films, but he's not the main characters and his films even let the B-team shine.

[Gonstead]

Has Bardock even had any real personality traits that set him apart? He's loyal to his comrades, he doesn't want his race to be wiped out, he loves his family, etc.

So what, he's your average soldier in the United States military? Hell, any soldier in any army in the real world? That really doesn't warrant being brought back and being sent on more adventures. He's hardly even a character. Even Broly stands out more than Bardock does in the personality department. He has a deep rooted grudge against Goku which differs in its rationale from Vegeta's grudge, and he's a hulking monster, which isn't actually that normal for big bad villains by Dragon Ball standards.

The only technically real defining thing behind Bardock is his tragic attempt at trying to prevent what his future visions are showing him about Planet Vegeta's destruction. Other than that, he's really only another pebble upon the rock pile of generic Saiyans featured so far. I really find it kind of hard to understand exactly what makes Bardock so special of a character.

And yeah, you're right about Broly. Despite our own problems with the character itself, at least Movie 8 tried to give us some sort of decent enough backstory on why Broly is what he is and at least there is some sort of understanding on why some people like the character.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Bardock's story was completely ruined. The TV Special (and the manga/Minus story as well) portrayed a dark, cruel story about the universe under Freeza’s rule and the tale of a ruthless, proud and lonely Saiyan’s fight against the destruction of his home planet. It portrays Bardock as a lone warrior, just like all the rest, who alone stood up for his people, despite being the underdog, and died with honor. The fact that he's now being marketed as the Super Saiyan (not to mention that, thanks to Heroes, he's one of the strongest characters in the series now), not only completely ruins what he represents, but Goku as well. Goku’s whole theme was that he was a low class who could reach great heights with the mere wish of improving himself; the way Bardock is being marketed now implies that it was all because of his bloodline, which is something I absolutely hate in Shounen: that a protagonist only is as important as he is because of his family.

It doesn't really matter if you consider it canon to the manga, it still exists and it's still there. You can ignore it sure, but when you're replying to a thread where the main purpose is to actually acknowledge these pieces of "non-canon" stories, then you have to acknowledge them. Bardock wasn't badly utilized, low screen time doesn't mean he was badly utilized, that's why he was loved so much. If you say he is just because he died, then you don't get what his purpose was. He served it, just like Future Gohan served his purpose way back, and he's not being completely stuck on every piece of DB merchandise that comes out, nor should he. Bardock's being overused in the same vein Broly was a few years back (and still is), and it makes him almost unbearable.

100% agreed. Although it's hard to take Heroes seriously when they do something like SSJ3 Great Ape Gogeta (And yet still no SSJ4 Vegito).

Some people think more screen time = Better character usage/storytelling which is absolutely ludicrous if you ask me. Slapping in bloodlines or "The Special" trope for everything Saiyan would not only ruin Goku's character development, but ruin the theme and purpose behind the Dragon Ball story as a whole (Improving oneself). For example, Goku mastering the SSJ form and passing it down to his son was much better and did more for Goku's character development than anything the aforementioned tropes can hope to do for Goku's character and story arc, as it utilizes the key elements of Goku's character better than anything else in the series (Genius fighter, trains mainly to improve oneself as oppose to just winning, pure-hearted so it's easier for him to eliminate the uneasiness of the Super Saiyan form) it literally defines Goku's fighting aspirations in the best way possible, but can him being "The Special" do the same? No. Why Gohan worked so well was because although he was gifted, he had to train under the guidance of both Piccolo and especially Goku to be able to realize his full potential, hence Future Gohan. Although Ultimate Gohan did sorta dampened that development by having the Elder Kai literally hand over Gohan's full potential via ritual rather than him working for it.

Ruining the theme and purpose of a story and its characters for the sake of something unnecessary that holds little meaning to the story as a whole is definitely not a good thing. It's bad.

[Dyno]

No. Zephyr, Eire, Doctor and almost everyone else in this topic has put forward how they think Bardock is overused as a character with rational explanations explaining why they see it that way.

You on the other hand have not offered anything of the sort. You say Freeza is overused? Great! Let's hear it then. Be a part of the crowd and actually give us something detailed and rational that explains why you think as such. Be constructive, not destructive.

Right now though, you're not offering anything valuable to the conversation at hand. The most you have done is list his known appearances but not actually do anything with them.

Great, because I read all those texts and all I got was them bashing implicitly on Episode of Bardock and how Super Saiyan Bardock "shits" all over the myth, "shits" on Kakarot, "shits" all the story and "shits" everything in and out universe (which isn't true, but anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?). Yes, Freeza is overused because of the amount of things he has appeared, just like some people also said Bardock is due to him appearing in many materials recently. Bardock with low screen time and his death fulfilled his purpose, and Freeza with big screen time and death also fulfilled his purpose. Simple as that.

[Lord Beerus]

Great, because I read all those texts and all I got was them bashing implicitly on Episode of Bardock and how Super Saiyan Bardock "shits" all over the myth, "shits" on Kakarot, "shits" all the story and "shits" everything in and out universe (which isn't true, but anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?). Yes, Freeza is overused because of the amount of things he has appeared, just like some people also said Bardock is due to him appearing in many materials recently. Bardock with low screen time and his death fulfilled his purpose, and Freeza with big screen time and death also fulfilled his purpose. Simple as that.

Going by your logic, you might as well say Raditz, The Ginyu Force, Cell and Majin Boo because they appear in just as much media as Freeza does. The whole reason why people are saying Bardock is overused because is constant appearance in his own side mangas or OVA's or video games, contribute jack shit to the Dragon Ball lore. It's even more jarring taking into consideration that any stories that Bardock is usually a part of pre-date the plot of Dragon Ball. So shoehorning him into stories that place during the present Dragon Ball story just reek of asspull/deus ex machina for the sake of having Bardock featured in more stories that he has not right to be in. The reason that Episode Of Bardock is brought up so much is because it epitomizes the asspull/deus ex machina length that writers will go to have Bardock in more stories he has no right to be in. At least with characters like Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo, they have a place in the current Dragon Ball story to some significant extent, which could be potentially expanded upon. And as many people have already stated, it does effectively crap all over they legend of the Super Saiyan and effectively ruin the whole basis for when Goku become a SSJ as more of a case of it being a family bloodline trait as supposed to an actual legendary transformation that any of the Saiyans could have had access to. Episode of Bardock also renders any sense of tragedy in the original TV special as moot and cheapens the legacy of the character as a whole just for the sake of making him a SSJ.

[Doctor.]

The only material Freeza has ever gotten where he's a main villain after his death is this new movie. He appeared in GT and M12 as a side-villain, gets mentioned a lot because, well, he's influential as fuck in the universe since his actions lead to the story we know and he appears in video-games because he's a main villain and video-games replicate the arcs of the series. Meanwhile, Bardock is a random Saiyan whose presence could have been erased from the Dragon Ball universe and he wouldn't have any impact on the lore at all (before Minus, at least). It's inexcusable that he gets a manga, an adaptation of that manga, gets a side-story in Xenoverse (and other console games), is a main antagonist in DBO (lol'd at that Evil Bardock thing), and is a prominent and one of the strongest characters in Heroes, when he's literally a nobody.

[Dyno]

Going by your logic, you might as well say Raditz, The Ginyu Force, Cell and Majin Boo because they appear in just as much media as Freeza does. The whole reason why people are saying Bardock is overused because is constant appearance in his own side mangas or OVA's or video games, contribute jack shit to the Dragon Ball lore. It's even more jarring taking into consideration that any stories that Bardock is usually a part of pre-date the plot of Dragon Ball. So shoehorning him into stories that place during the present Dragon Ball story just reek of asspull/deus ex machina for the sake of having Bardock featured in more stories that he has not right to be in.

So... A character must just appear in the video-game only if he contributed to the Dragon Ball lore? Tell me I understood this wrong.
I stopped at "he has not right to be in". Tried hard but can't go any further, this statement is indeed what would call "ludicrous", pathetic. Every character has the right to shine, to have one's moment. Focusing just on the main characters is also a terrible idea, don't create a character if you're not going to use it, don't bring him to the canon continuity just for him to have two panels. It's even unacceptable how King Vegeta has only his name craved there, ridiculous.

But anyway, this conversation has no end and it's pointless to discuss whether a character should or not appear more or whether one already has appeared a lot or not, as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine upon Bardock will not change.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Not every single character has to shine though, some characters are just created to serve one purpose and that is it, in Bardock's case it was to father Goku, anyway that was his shinning moment if we go by your idea that every character must shine. So yeah Bardock shined and so therefore there is no need to keep banging him over our heads.

[Sinestro]

Gotenks. Not because he gets a lot of screen time, but because he's the only Fusion we ever see, even though you'd think all the other, far stronger Z fighters would have Fused into different kinds of new warriors by now.

But no. Just Goten and Trunks.

I'm inclined to agree with you. When was the last time we saw Gogeta in animation? GT?

Not including video game openings, I presume?

On a slightly related tangent, I can't remember if Gogeta is in any of the Heroes commericals.

[voltlunok]

Gotenks. Not because he gets a lot of screen time, but because he's the only Fusion we ever see, even though you'd think all the other, far stronger Z fighters would have Fused into different kinds of new warriors by now.

But no. Just Goten and Trunks.

I'm inclined to agree with you. When was the last time we saw Gogeta in animation? GT?

Not including video game openings, I presume?

On a slightly related tangent, I can't remember if Gogeta is in any of the Heroes commericals.

Not really, SSJ4 Gogeta is showing up now but oddly enough, most commercials before now featured Vegetto more. Which I find interesting cause we actually don't see a lot of Vegetto themed marketing...he's rather underused. Ya know what...SPINOFF THREAD TIME!

[Zephyr]

Yes, Freeza is overused because of the amount of things he has appeared, just like some people also said Bardock is due to him appearing in many materials recently. Bardock with low screen time and his death fulfilled his purpose, and Freeza with big screen time and death also fulfilled his purpose. Simple as that.

Once again, the argument for Bardock being overused does not apply to Freeza. Freeza is an actual character with actual personality. He's a posh, flamboyant, cocky, arrogant, stubborn sadist with a penchant for imperialism and genocide. He was the major antagonist of one of the largest defining story arcs of the entire franchise and he was a humongous player in the politics of the universe during his heyday. His continued presence is well justified.

Bardock is more like Mutaito. Yeah, he was depicted as a stone cold hardass, badass motherfucker. He fought a tough battle to the death, and he set the stage for some major shit for our heroes down the road. But he was a side character with little to no distinguishing personality traits. He was used for background story expansion, and he served that purpose well. Everything we really needed to know about Mutaito was told. Now, imagine if we got Mutaito shoved into several pieces of new material. We get an anime special where he didn't actually die against Piccolo Daimao, no it turns out he magically got sent back in time and was actually the God who Garlic and the son of Katatz trained under! Whoa man! And wait, he also learned the Kaio-ken and got the Elder Kaioshin upgrade, because why the hell not? None of these really do anything to expand/create his personality though, to hell with that. And then, in DBO and Heroes, Mira thought he was so ~sugoi~ that he snatched him up, and put a mask on him. Now the DBH cutscenes depict him as on par with SSj4 Gogeta.

Now, I think that would be pretty sweet all things considered, I'm not going to lie. But that is not the same as Freeza getting continual name drops, depictions in video games, and the like. And that would entail Mutaito being overused. You seem to be mistaken in thinking that because someone asserts that Character A is overused that they absolutely hate the character. That isn't what's going on here.

Great, because I read all those texts and all I got was them bashing implicitly on Episode of Bardock and how Super Saiyan Bardock "shits" all over the myth, "shits" on Kakarot, "shits" all the story and "shits" everything in and out universe (which isn't true, but anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?).

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. But any opinion worth its salt has reasoning backing it up, which you seem adamant about not supplying, with regard to yours. Why is what we said not true? Show, not tell.

[Dyno]

On a slightly related tangent, I can't remember if Gogeta is in any of the Heroes commericals.

Are you sure?