Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

[RandomGuy96]

Most certainly, even if Dragon Ball had already lost sight of its original vision with Freeza.

What, exactly, was its "original vision"?

You might argue that Buu does entirely the same thing, merely acting as any old threat for character growth to funnel out of, but Buu is never set up as anything else, and his wild eccentricity basically acknowledges it- he is supposed to entertain in a vacuum.

Buu has tons of personality on his own though, unlike the extremely bland androids and Perfect Cell.

Vegeta wasn't confirmed to be the strongest.

Yes he was. He confirmed it while thinking to himself. Pretty much everything in the Saiyan arc contradicts the existence of Freeza- but he existed in the Namek arc, regardless.

[LuckyCat]

There are plenty of examples of stories being affected in ways like this or in similar manners, many of them for the better.

Yes, it's like the time machine in Back to the Future was a refrigerator in the book. I doubt anyone is complaining now that the film's editors changed it to a car.

Yes he was. He confirmed it while thinking to himself.

Android #17 claims to be the strongest android several times. I don't think we can take Dragon Ball villains at their word.

[Gaffer Tape]

There are plenty of examples of stories being affected in ways like this or in similar manners, many of them for the better.

Yes, it's like the time machine in Back to the Future was a refrigerator in the book. I doubt anyone is complaining now that the film's editors changed it to a car.

Um. Back to the Future wasn't a book adapted into a movie. In earlier drafts of the screenplay, the time machine was a chamber that had to be thrown into the back of a truck. The power of editing is impressive, but it would be difficult even for editors to make such a huge, drastic change. It was the writers who did that while they were still trying to hammer out the story. It's a world of difference between ideas being changed in the conceptual stage versus being changed during the work itself. If Back to the Future were a more apt comparison to the Cell arc of DB, the movie would have started with the time machine being a chamber only for it to suddenly become a car halfway through the film.

Yes he was. He confirmed it while thinking to himself.

Android #17 claims to be the strongest android several times. I don't think we can take Dragon Ball villains at their word.

#17 genuinely believes he is the strongest being on the planet. If we are to believe that Vegeta figures he has to get the Dragon Balls and wish for immortality in order to defeat Freeza, he clearly knows he's not the strongest and wouldn't be telling himself that he is.

[ABED]

Yes, it's like the time machine in Back to the Future was a refrigerator in the book. I doubt anyone is complaining now that the film's editors changed it to a car.

I take it you are mocking my point. The original ending of Blade was going to have Frost become a giant wave of blood. It was audience testing that convinced them to change La Magra into a Blood God instead of a Blood Wave. The original ending of Back to the Future was supposed to take place at a atomic bomb testing sight instead of Hill Valley. In Batman TAS, Bruce Timm originally intended to see Dick Grayson's parent's falling to their death, with Dick seeing it all. The network censors didn't allow it, so it was changed so all you saw was the snapped trapeze wire. Stallone decided that Rambo would live at the end of First Blood instead of having him commit suicide, which was the original ending.

Yes he was. He confirmed it while thinking to himself.

Someone thinking to themselves is proof of nothing, especially an arrogant villain prone to overestimating his own abilities.

[Cipher]

Android #17 claims to be the strongest android several times. I don't think we can take Dragon Ball villains at their word.

Maybe it was just foreshadowing.

[LuckyCat]

If Back to the Future were a more apt comparison to the Cell arc of DB, the movie would have started with the time machine being a chamber only for it to suddenly become a car halfway through the film.

Fair enough, though my point was that original authors don't always come up with the best ideas.

I take it you are mocking my point.

Nope, just giving an example.

Maybe it was just foreshadowing.

It can't be. In Toriyama's version of Dragon Ball, #17 is not the strongest android. If #17 was an original character of Toei you might have a point.

#17 genuinely believes he is the strongest being on the planet. If we are to believe that Vegeta figures he has to get the Dragon Balls and wish for immortality in order to defeat Freeza

Vegeta wanted to get the dragon balls in Saiyan saga so he could fight forever. This was stated. Freeza only became relevant in Namek saga later on.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Most certainly, even if Dragon Ball had already lost sight of its original vision with Freeza.

What, exactly, was its "original vision"?

The pure martial arts parody not so concerned with arbitrary battle powers (but I suppose Piccolo killed it if Battle Powers are the kicker). While Dragon Ball never stopped being Dragon Ball, I feel the Z-era is something "else" compared to Goku's younger days. Enough so that our hero being a simpleton from the mountains in a gi feels rather out of place. I have not really thought about it farther than that.

You might argue that Buu does entirely the same thing, merely acting as any old threat for character growth to funnel out of, but Buu is never set up as anything else, and his wild eccentricity basically acknowledges it- he is supposed to entertain in a vacuum.

Buu has tons of personality on his own though, unlike the extremely bland androids and Perfect Cell.[/quote]

I agree entirely. I was trying to say that Buu was built to be an entertaining character simply by how he acts, with no need for a greater story to drive what he does.

[ABED]

Nope, just giving an example.

Well, editors in film and in publishing are two different things, and BTTF isn't a book.

If Back to the Future were a more apt comparison to the Cell arc of DB, the movie would have started with the time machine being a chamber only for it to suddenly become a car halfway through the film.

But it still works in the Cell arc. Time travel allows you to justify these sorts of corrections and it's not apparent in the final work that it wasn't always progressing towards Cell. Think about it, if #19 and #20 were the antagonists that Toriyama had in mind when Trunks told Goku about the future, it would've been a short arc as they would've fought the big bads right from the jump.

[Kid Buu]

Maybe it was just foreshadowing.

It can't be. In Toriyama's version of Dragon Ball, #17 is not the strongest android. If #17 was an original character of Toei you might have a point.

Not to be a dick, but I'm pretty sure he was just trying to make a joke.

[RandomGuy96]

Most certainly, even if Dragon Ball had already lost sight of its original vision with Freeza.

What, exactly, was its "original vision"?

The pure martial arts parody not so concerned with arbitrary battle powers (but I suppose Piccolo killed it if Battle Powers are the kicker). While Dragon Ball never stopped being Dragon Ball, I feel the Z-era is something "else" compared to Goku's younger days. Enough so that our hero being a simpleton from the mountains in a gi feels rather out of place. I have not really thought about it farther than that.

You might argue that Buu does entirely the same thing, merely acting as any old threat for character growth to funnel out of, but Buu is never set up as anything else, and his wild eccentricity basically acknowledges it- he is supposed to entertain in a vacuum.
Buu has tons of personality on his own though, unlike the extremely bland androids and Perfect Cell.

I agree entirely. I was trying to say that Buu was built to be an entertaining character simply by how he acts, with no need for a greater story to drive what he does.

I don't think the Freeza arc is really where the change took place. I think that the big shift either happens with the introduction of Piccolo, or with the Saiyan arc.

[LuckyCat]

Not to be a dick, but I'm pretty sure he was just trying to make a joke.

I hope so. But, you know, if GT's part of your head-canon I guess there's a (weak) argument that #17's boasting foreshadowed Super 17.

[Cipher]

I hope so. But, you know, if GT's part of your head-canon I guess there's a (weak) argument that #17's boasting foreshadowed Super 17.

That was the joke and it was a joke.

[Gaffer Tape]

If Back to the Future were a more apt comparison to the Cell arc of DB, the movie would have started with the time machine being a chamber only for it to suddenly become a car halfway through the film.

Fair enough, though my point was that original authors don't always come up with the best ideas.

But... it WAS the original writers who came up with making the time machine a DeLorean! So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

#17 genuinely believes he is the strongest being on the planet. If we are to believe that Vegeta figures he has to get the Dragon Balls and wish for immortality in order to defeat Freeza

Vegeta wanted to get the dragon balls in Saiyan saga so he could fight forever. This was stated. Freeza only became relevant in Namek saga later on.

Now you're really starting to confuse me. Weren't you defending the retcon by saying it was possible Vegeta was just being unreliable? You can't spackle over the plot hole and then defend it by reminding me that there's a plot hole! You can either say it works because you think Vegeta's unreliable, or you can say it doesn't work because Vegeta's comments are contradictory to the existence of Freeza, but those ideas together are completely incompatible!

But it still works in the Cell arc. Time travel allows you to justify these sorts of corrections and it's not apparent in the final work that it wasn't always progressing towards Cell. Think about it, if #19 and #20 were the antagonists that Toriyama had in mind when Trunks told Goku about the future, it would've been a short arc as they would've fought the big bads right from the jump.

I wasn't arguing whether it works or not. For the record... in some places yes, in some places absolutely not. I was just arguing against the Back to the Future example being a legitimate comparison to the Cell arc situation.

[ABED]

I wasn't arguing whether it works or not. For the record... in some places yes, in some places absolutely not. I was just arguing against the Back to the Future example being a legitimate comparison to the Cell arc situation.

Not if one believes it works.

Please be specific, where do you think it doesn't work?

[LuckyCat]

That was the joke and it was a joke.

Bummer, I was hoping for a Super #17 discussion.

Now you're really starting to confuse me. Weren't you defending the retcon by saying it was possible Vegeta was just being unreliable? You can't spackle over the plot hole and then defend it by reminding me that there's a plot hole! You can either say it works because you think Vegeta's unreliable, or you can say it doesn't work because Vegeta's comments are contradictory to the existence of Freeza, but those ideas together are completely incompatible!

It can be both. I'm not sure Toriyama had planned Freeza when he wrote that dialogue, but in context Vegeta was just making a badass boast (I mean, Goku was already stronger than him when he said it).