What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

[Sayo-chan]

But seeing the error of your ways and even killing Palpatine doesn't make up for decades of murder and tyranny, it couldn't.

In this case, it doesn't have to. Vader's aware of his crimes and realizes he fucked up. Vegeta doesn't do this.

Agreed, but the quote you gave didn't claim that at all. THat's what's confusing.

The quote is no different than any other variant really, it's basically what Ajay said earlier:

People say that a lot as an extension of the mentality that Drummond doesn't work for Vegeta later in the series.

Drummond somehow being the perfect early Vegeta with Sabat somehow being the perfect later Vegeta is my tiff.
Yes this is faintly hyperbolic.

Not what I'm arguing. I could be passive aggressive and continue to tell you to read what I wrote, but instead I'll tell you that wasn't my argument. Vegeta and Vader can never atone for what they did. The best they can do is change and try to stop the bleeding. In the case, Vegeta tries to stop Buu and ends up being

It's not being passive aggressive when you ask the same questions over and over and over again. I've clarified several times what my position and arguments are. You also asked why it wasn't as significant, so why ask if you're going to say that? It becomes too tedious to have to restate everything over and over. It's more than "stopping the bleeding". I explained that in my last post. Vader could've either sided with the Emperor and lived out his reign or given it all up for his son. He did the latter. Vegeta sensed Boo's power and realized he was fucked either way, so for some stupid reason he knocked Goku out and irrationally went to face Boo alone. All he does is make things worse because of his shortsightedness, that's why it's not a good comparison to make to Vader.

No it doesn't they are simply saying that one voice is better at one aspect, and another is better at something else.

Not exactly. They're saying one works for the character at a certain time while the other doesn't and vice versa. Different variants to say the same thing, as I've said a few times now.

...

Do you have some links where I can read up on him searching for a host?

[Kamiccolo9]

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Do you have some links where I can read up on him searching for a host?

Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Empire
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Empire_II
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Empire%27s_End

Any of the sourcebooks dealing with the matter will discuss it too, but these three are the "Primary" sources.

[ABED]

In this case, it doesn't have to.

In the rules of that fictional world, just like the fictional world of DBZ, Vegeta is considered a good guy. I'm not claiming i agree with either scenario, nor that Vegeta's atonement was better or as good as Vaders. I'm merely pointing to the in universe answer.

The quote is no different than any other variant really

Not exactly. They're saying one works for the character at a certain time while the other doesn't and vice versa. Different variants to say the same thing

It is different, they didn't say, nor imply that they want Drummond to play him up to a certain point and then Sabat to play him afterwards. It's no different than those that say Bale was a better Bruce Wayne but Keaton was a better Batman. They aren't claiming they want to mix and match, just pointing out what they believe are those actors' strong suits. Saying one works at one time doesn't imply that they think FUNimation should cast Drummond then Sabat.

It's not being passive aggressive when you ask the same questions over and over and over again.

I'm asking because your argument is confusing you usually just repost, but that's not clarification. putting something in different words or using another example is helpful when I'm learning something.

Vader could've either sided with the Emperor and lived out his reign or given it all up for his son. He did the latter. Vegeta sensed Boo's power and realized he was fucked either way, so for some stupid reason he knocked Goku out and irrationally went to face Boo alone. All he does is make things worse because of his shortsightedness, that's why it's not a good comparison to make to Vader.

Vegeta's change doesn't stop there. He's still changing towards the end. Yes, Vegeta was irrational, i never said otherwise. However, you aren't taking into account the fight against pure Buu where he was integral to that victory. He fought for the right reasons, to protect a world and a family he had come to care about. He fought against an opponent he knew he had no chance of defeating to give Goku a chance to destroy him once and for all. Vegeta knew that dying then would've meant his complete end since if your body is destroyed in the afterlife, you are gone for good. The old Vegeta never would've done that. I liked Sabat's voice and performance of "Kakarrot, you are number one" better than Drummond's.

[Sayo-chan]

In the rules of that fictional world, just like the fictional world of DBZ, Vegeta is considered a good guy. I'm not claiming i agree with either scenario, nor that Vegeta's atonement was better or as good as Vaders. I'm merely pointing to the in universe answer.

He isn't considered a good guy at this point, hence why he ends up in Hell. This is why, as I've stated, I don't consider him to be "good" until he's wished back. As I have stated several times now, I don't consider Vegeta anything less than a shitbag until the forces of nature say otherwise, which is when he's wished back.

It is different, they didn't say, nor imply that they want Drummond to play him up to a certain point and then Sabat to play him afterwards. It's no different than those that say Bale was a better Bruce Wayne but Keaton was a better Batman. They aren't claiming they want to mix and match, just pointing out what they believe are those actors' strong suits. Saying one works at one time doesn't imply that they think FUNimation should cast Drummond then Sabat.

It's really not. You're arbitrarily picking the semantics into pieces, which doesn't actually affect the quote's relation to what I've stated. It gives the implication they like Drummond for early Vegeta and Sabat for later Vegeta. This is a common sentiment, the second image really harps on this. I can post hundreds of variants, it makes no difference, they all serve the same purpose. Your Batman comparison is also completely different, seeing that it doesn't relate in the slightest, because saying they should be mixed and matched has nothing to do with what I've stated. Saying Drummond works for early Vegeta whereas Sabat works for later Vegeta is the problem, which is what all these posts say in one way or another. It doesn't make sense. Voices don't magically change because of subtle psychological changes. Drummond's voice doesn't somehow become less of Vegeta by the Cell arc (i.e., it's no less appropriate).

I'm asking because your argument is confusing, you never restate, you usually repost.

I've done both, so no. There's nothing confusing about my argument, you're twisting my words at every turn into something they're not. I've explained in detail several times what I've meant, including above. I've restated this, how many times now?

Vegeta's change doesn't stop there. He's still changing towards the end. Yes, Vegeta was irrational, i never said otherwise. However, you aren't taking into account the fight against pure Buu where he was integral to that victory. He fought for the right reasons, to protect a world and a family he had come to care about. He fought against an opponent he knew he had no chance of defeating to give Goku a chance to destroy him once and for all. Vegeta knew that dying then would've meant his complete end since if your body is destroyed in the afterlife, you are gone for good. The old Vegeta never would've done that. I liked Sabat's voice and performance of "Kakarrot, you are number one" better than Drummond's.

We're not talking about Vegeta after this point in time. My posts clearly dictate the drastic changes happen afterwards. I'm not taking that fight into account, because as I have stated a few times now, it's irrelevant to his atonement after his fight with Goku. You made this same argument before about Vegetto/being wished back and I said the exact same thing, that's the major turning point I referred to in my first post and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Bodies being destroyed, which I'm not sure if they are, is hardly consequential. Vegeta likely believed he was going to kill Boo, at which point, what would stop Bulma from reviving him? Nothing. He can't be that dense.

I hated them both. They both sounded lame and forced.

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Thanks.

[ABED]

He isn't considered a good guy at this point, hence why he ends up in Hell. This is why, as I've stated, I don't consider him to be "good" until he's wished back. As I have stated several times now, I don't consider Vegeta anything less than a shitbag until the forces of nature say otherwise, which is when he's wished back.
And that I would agree with, but I wasn't arguing that he's a good guy, in fact I would still argue that his fate at the end of the series is too good for him. My point was that he changed.

It's really not. You're arbitrarily picking the semantics into

It is, you are drawing an eroneous conclusion. There's no context to make a conclusion other than they are merely stating preference, that quote isn't enough to go on. It's not a variant of anything other than "I like a guy for this, and a I like this actor for this" It doesn't imply any action.

Voices don't magically change because of subtle changes. Drummond's voice doesn't somehow become less of Vegeta.

Of course voices don't change, who said they changed or should change? Not the people in the quote. They are saying his voice doesn't fit a character like Vegeta because he's more nuanced than early appearances would have you believe. If all we ever got of Vegeta was him in the Saiyan arc, Drummond would be perfect, but his voice comes across as more stereotypically evil. You think Vegeta is that until pretty much the end, fine, others don't.

you're twisting my words at every turn into something they're not

You've done the same to me, and I think the best approach would be to make an honest effort to read and understand the other person's post or not engage. I've mentioned several times that I don't think Vegeta is a good person, my point is that he changed.

We're not talking about Vegeta after this point in time.

You weren't. I was talking about Vegeta as a character, which includes up to the end of the series. I'm well aware that drastic changes happen afterwards, but they don't come out of nowhere. Vegeta is making his way constantly towards that end. Sometimes he takes a huge step back, but he doesn't do a complete 180 at the end. He make a bunch of little changes over time that add up to a lot and make it believable that he would help out for the right reasons.

Bodies being destroyed, which I'm not sure if they are, is hardly consequential. Vegeta likely believed he was going to kill Boo

I'm talking about the fight against Kid Buu and yes they are destroyed. Goku makes it clear that he's gone from existence, not just the living world if he dies in his afterlife body.

[ABED]

http://puu.sh/k6yKs/c0bc3ab046.png
Maybe it was the word new. Do you mean "different", because in this case that implies something else. No, a change of character doesn't warrant a completely new voice, but if the character changes significantly, which I believe he does over time, especially at the end, Drummond wouldn't be the actor I cast to begin with. I would pick Sabat.

[Sayo-chan]

My point was that he changed.

I never argued he didn't change. I said everything was insignificant until after he returns from being dead, specifically with being revived. Why bring this up? I acknowledged he changed in my first post. It's outright stated. a

It is, you are drawing an eroneous conclusion. There's no context to make a conclusion other than they are merely stating preference, that quote isn't enough to go on. It's not a variant of anything other than "I like a guy for this, and a I like this actor for this" It doesn't imply any action.

There are no erroneous conclusion here. You're needlessly nitpicking semantics here for no reason whatsoever. They all imply the same thing that leads into what I have an issue with. It doesn't have to be anything more than that. It's a far cry from anything I've been talking about.

Of course voices don't change, who said they changed or should change? Not the people in the quote. They are saying his voice doesn't fit a character like Vegeta because he's more nuanced than early appearances would have you believe. If all we ever got of Vegeta was him in the Saiyan arc, Drummond would be perfect, but his voice comes across as more stereotypically evil. You think Vegeta is that until pretty much the end, fine, others don't.

Are you serious right now? After three pages and we're back to square one? Look, you were just talking about making an effort to understand my posts. I'm becoming tired of the tedious nature of explaining this. They say, clearly, very clearly, that his voice fits one portion of the character's life whereas the other voice fits another. This is not warranted. Characters voices don't change for reasons so petty. Vegeta does not become less of Vegeta because of a subtle psychological change. You don't get to be dismissive about what bothers me. I'm allowed to feel bothered by something and express that. So far, you haven't deconstructed anything or actually addressed much of what I've said. You've been too busy prying at the arbitrary semantics therein, derailing the thread.

You've done the same to me, and I think the best approach would be to make an honest effort to read and understand the other person's post or not engage. I've mentioned several times that I don't think Vegeta is a good person, my point is that he changed.

And that point is irrelevant to anything I've stated. I've clarified that for three pages now. So why continually try to tell me something that has little to nothing to do with what I'm saying? I haven't twisted any of your words, it's simply that many of your replies don't actually have much to do with any of the points I've been driving across the range here.

You weren't. I was talking about Vegeta as a character, which includes up to the end of the series. I'm well aware that drastic changes happen afterwards, but they don't come out of nowhere. Vegeta is making his way constantly towards that end. Sometimes he takes a huge step back, but he doesn't do a complete 180 at the end. He make a bunch of little changes over time that add up to a lot and make it believable that he would help out for the right reasons. I'm talking about the fight against Kid Buu and yes they are destroyed. Goku makes it clear that he's gone from existence, not just the living world if he dies in his afterlife body.

Why? Why would you randomly go off on a tangent to a very specific context? Vegeta's later development doesn't have anything to do with his atonement while he's Majin, you can't arbitrarily shift the topic for no reason. Everything after his atonement, yes. Yes, he does begin making that sacrilege. What does that have to do with what I've been saying though? You're quoting things about the Majin atonement, which my only argument about it was its significance, why go beyond that? It's not relevant to what I'm saying. If you have an opinion about it concerning Drummond or Sabat, why quote something I've stated that has nothing to do with it? This is a thread about Drummond, not Vegeta's development. I brought up a brief summary of his character concerning why I don't believe he changed to warrant a vocal change purely off his personality.

http://puu.sh/k6yKs/c0bc3ab046.png
Maybe it was the word new. Do you mean "different", because in this case that implies something else. No, a change of character doesn't warrant a completely new voice, but if the character changes significantly, which I believe he does over time, especially at the end, Drummond wouldn't be the actor I cast to begin with. I would pick Sabat.

There's no reason Drummond wouldn't fit Vegeta up until he's brought back to fight Boo. And even then, it's a matter of direction. Changing new to different doesn't make a difference in what I'm saying.

[ABED]

Why? Why would you randomly go off on a tangent to a very specific context? Vegeta's later development doesn't have anything to do with his atonement while he's Majin, you can't arbitrarily shift the topic for no reason.

I wasn't shifting topics. I believed that we were talking about the entire series, not that one specific moment. If you were, then I agree, he hasn't atoned nor fully changed. My only addition would be that giving up his life then was a significant step in that direction.

There's no reason Drummond wouldn't fit Vegeta up until he's brought back to fight Boo. And even then, it's a matter of direction.

Then you need to direct him different from the outset. As you said, his voice wouldn't change just because he was an arguably better person. However, the director would need to know that in order to tell Drummond not to sound so saturday morning bad guy. Maybe his voice in Gundamn Wing voice would've been better. Either way, it's irrelevant as to whether the direction is the issue. The performance is what it is and to many, THAT performance he gives wasn't as good as Sabat's for Vegeta later on in the show.

Characters voices don't change for reasons so petty.

No one is saying they do!

I said everything was insignificant until after he returns from being dead, specifically with being revived.

Each step seems small, but adds up and you need all those steps for that final big change to feel earned and organic.

[Sayo-chan]

There's no reason Drummond wouldn't fit Vegeta up until he's brought back to fight Boo. And even then, it's a matter of direction.
Then you need to direct him different from the outset. As you said, his voice wouldn't change just because he was an arguably better person. However, the director would need to know that in order to tell Drummond not to sound so saturday morning bad guy. Maybe his voice in Gundamn Wing voice would've been better. Either way, it's irrelevant as to whether the direction is the issue. The performance is what it is and to many, THAT performance he gives wasn't as good as Sabat's for Vegeta later on in the show.

I would love to direct him, but I'd also like to see how he is in the Ocean dub of Kai. He stated on twitter they dubbed it, but he doesn't know what's going with the distribution. I'd also like to put forth that to many here in America, Sabat trumps Horikawa.

No one is saying they do!

They give the logical implication by saying what they're saying, but I bet I can find quotations of people saying Vegeta "turning good" means his voice should change (mainly because I've heard it verbatim).

[ABED]

There's no reason Drummond wouldn't fit Vegeta up until he's brought back to fight Boo. And even then, it's a matter of direction.
Then you need to direct him different from the outset. As you said, his voice wouldn't change just because he was an arguably better person. However, the director would need to know that in order to tell Drummond not to sound so saturday morning bad guy. Maybe his voice in Gundamn Wing voice would've been better. Either way, it's irrelevant as to whether the direction is the issue. The performance is what it is and to many, THAT performance he gives wasn't as good as Sabat's for Vegeta later on in the show.

I would love to direct him, but I'd also like to see how he is in the Ocean dub of Kai. He stated on twitter they dubbed it, but he doesn't know what's going with the distribution. I'd also like to put forth that to many here in America, Sabat trumps Horikawa.

No one is saying they do!

They give the logical implication by saying what they're saying, but I bet I can find quotations of people saying Vegeta "turning good" means his voice should change (mainly because I've heard it verbatim).

Maybe they do, but that's not the only logical implication. The other one is that they are simply stating who they think voiced certain aspects better.

If they think him turning good means his voice should change then I would agree, UNLESS they mean the voice should've been different from the outset so that it fits both versions of that character.

Are you a director? I'm just wondering.

I'm aware that to many in America, Sabat trumps Horikawa, i simply don't agree, except for maybe Kai. The FUNi cast were leaps and bounds better, but the JPN cast weren't nearly as good as they were 20 years ago. Horikawa to a lesser degree. He's almost as good as he ever was.

[Sayo-chan]

There's no reason Drummond wouldn't fit Vegeta up until he's brought back to fight Boo. And even then, it's a matter of direction.
Then you need to direct him different from the outset. As you said, his voice wouldn't change just because he was an arguably better person. However, the director would need to know that in order to tell Drummond not to sound so saturday morning bad guy. Maybe his voice in Gundamn Wing voice would've been better. Either way, it's irrelevant as to whether the direction is the issue. The performance is what it is and to many, THAT performance he gives wasn't as good as Sabat's for Vegeta later on in the show.

I would love to direct him, but I'd also like to see how he is in the Ocean dub of Kai. He stated on twitter they dubbed it, but he doesn't know what's going with the distribution. I'd also like to put forth that to many here in America, Sabat trumps Horikawa.

No one is saying they do!

They give the logical implication by saying what they're saying, but I bet I can find quotations of people saying Vegeta "turning good" means his voice should change (mainly because I've heard it verbatim).

Maybe they do, but that's not the only logical implication. The other one is that they are simply stating who they think voiced certain aspects better.

Are you a director? I'm just wondering.

Not the only one doesn't mean it isn't. It's fairly cut and dry that what they're saying is giving the notion that the personality changes warrant a change. I don't deny what you're saying can also be there, but as it stands, it's merely deduction at this point.

No, I'm not a director (not that I don't think I'd be good at it, seeing I have experience in related areas), but I think my statement is akin to a kid that really likes baseball saying he'd love to have Babe Ruth play on his team (or rather be Babe Ruth's manager).

[ABED]

BUt not while the show is already up and running. It's doesn't come across as though they are saying there should be a switch of actors mid-series. If it was, then I agree, that's absurd.

No, I'm not a director (not that I don't think I'd be good at it, seeing I have experience in related areas), but I think my statement is akin to a kid that really likes baseball saying he'd love to have Babe Ruth play on his team (or rather be Babe Ruth's manager).

Gotcha. Not to pry, but what related areas?

[Sayo-chan]

BUt not while the show is already up and running. It's doesn't come across as though they are saying there should be a switch of actors mid-series. If it was, then I agree, that's absurd.

In that one no, they're just giving the implication that a change is warranted because Drummond can't hack later Vegeta. You really see the Drummond = Saiyan/Namek arc mentality here. Speaking of which, there are people that believe Vegeta does legitimately need a vocal transplant halfway through the series in order to properly reflect the character. I recall a thread on Cartoon World before it was shutdown about a project to replace all of Vegeta's early lines in the orange bricks with Drummond's.

Gotcha. Not to pry, but what related areas?

Vocals and instrumentals.

[ABED]

I like both actors a lot. Could Drummond have come up with a voice that better fits Vegeta's entire character? I wouldn't put it past him, but all I have to go on is the performance I heard.

[gohann]

He did the best one, but what really sets him apart from Sabat is superior voice direction.

[ABED]

He did the best one, but what really sets him apart from Sabat is superior voice direction.

After Kai, I don't think the Ocean dub had superior voice direction. Okay, arguably the first three movies were on par, but none of those had Vegeta.

[gohann]

He did the best one, but what really sets him apart from Sabat is superior voice direction.

After Kai, I don't think the Ocean dub had superior voice direction. Okay, arguably the first three movies were on par, but none of those had Vegeta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0bwFN-K9w
0:01 - Confused grunt
0:05, 0:08 - Pained grunt
"That was no clock..." The Ocean and Nicktoons versions sound good, the uncut version sounds really underplayed.
The actual scene: There's actually build-up to his breaking point from the point he flies out of the water to the end, the Kai versions don't have that same build-up because it's basically the same thing throughout. He does not sound any angrier at the end than he did from the start.

The acting isn't bad, neither is the voice, but the vocal direction wasn't on par.

Also, might I mention that the uncut scenes sound notably worse than the Nicktoons versions?

[Nightmare Wheel]

He did the best one, but what really sets him apart from Sabat is superior voice direction.

After Kai, I don't think the Ocean dub had superior voice direction. Okay, arguably the first three movies were on par, but none of those had Vegeta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0bwFN-K9w
0:01 - Confused grunt
0:05, 0:08 - Pained grunt
"That was no clock..." The Ocean and Nicktoons versions sound good, the uncut version sounds really underplayed.
The actual scene: There's actually build-up to his breaking point from the point he flies out of the water to the end, the Kai versions don't have that same build-up because it's basically the same thing throughout. He does not sound any angrier at the end than he did from the start.

The acting isn't bad, neither is the voice, but the vocal direction wasn't on par.

Also, might I mention that the uncut scenes sound notably worse than the Nicktoons versions?

Is it really fair to use a single scene as grounds for judging the direction of an entire dub?

[gohann]

I could have used multiple other scenes, that one was just the perfect example.

[ABED]

I could have used multiple other scenes, that one was just the perfect example.

You don't think there are numerous conterexamples? Or examples of bad direction or acting from the Ocean dub?

Yes, Drummond's scream is amazing, but the direction was fine in Kai, he does get sufficiently angrier, it's not underplayed. If anything Drummond is a tad melodramatic. It's great, but a tad over the top with the delivery. Are you sure you're not listening to the redub?